hello_world !

Ezio

Peace everyone and thank you for your welcome !

@good logic
You got it right ^^
I visited the website (only the homepage since I do not have much time). Those are good questions one should ask himself to know where he stands vis-?-vis God's system and God Himself, or even just with respect to his own beliefs.
I did ask myself those questions as I "woke up" from my ignorance...
Thank you for the link, I'll check it out when I'll have the time !

@clashncruz
Sorry I got you confused !
What I meant is that I am certain of God's existence, which is the reason why I said I do not believe anymore as I oppose those two notions belief and certainty. But not everyone make that distinction, it is my personal view of things, so I understand your confusion ^^
I hope it is clearer now ^^

Peace )

Comrox

Peace Ezio,

I loved reading your story. It's very interesting. I'm glad you've found this forum. ) I too spent a lot of time reading here (and still do) before I joined.

Ezio

Peace Comrox,

Thank you for your welcome

Man_of_Faith

It is good that you say you acknowledge Rabb rather than believe. Believing is not optimal.

Ezio

Peace Man of Faith,

Indeed, that is exactly the way I see things.

Bender

Salaam Ezio welcome to the forum handshake

I enjoyed reading your intro.

Salaam,
Bender

mmkhan

I can proudly say I do not believe in God, rather, I acknowledge His existence, for I am not anymore a blind witness to His signs and guidance. I hope and pray the Almighty to always guide me as well as everybody else, and I will do my best to earn that guidance.

Peace bro,

Welcome to the forum welcome

The red highlighted part caught my eyes, interesting

May the Rabb guide us all to His path pr
mmKhan

HP_TECH

The above in red is the perfect example of people trying to divide themselves into sects.
By redefining words that already make perfect sense.

And proves lack of understanding of words.
If you acknowledge the existence of God you by default believe.

People need to really define their terms clearly before making statements like these, because there are different mesnings the word believe can convey.
It can convey certainty in something without absolute proof and even an assumption or supposing.
For all purposes when we Muslims are speaking about believing in God we are of course conveying certainty without absolute proof.

So why try to exclude yourself from the lot by trying to use fancy vocabulary.

Ridiculous

Now. If you'll excuse me

Bender

The above in red is the perfect example of people trying to divide themselves into sects.
By redefining words that already make perfect sense.

And proves lack of understanding of words.
If you acknowledge the existence of God you by default believe.

People need to really define their terms clearly before making statements like these, because there are different mesnings the word believe can convey.
It can convey certainty in something without absolute proof and even an assumption or supposing.
For all purposes when we Muslims are speaking about believing in God we are of course conveying certainty without absolute proof.

So why try to exclude yourself from the lot by trying to use fancy vocabulary.

Ridiculous

Now. If you'll excuse me

Hi,

Sorry but that is what you make of it.
The only ridiculous thing is your accusation towards him.
He can believe and/or acknowledge whatever he likes, just like you do, it has absolutely nothing to do with sects or whatever you accuse him of.

Besides this in his OP he said "I am not very confident about my English as I do not practise it very much, so please be comprehensive and do not hesitate to correct me if needs be."
So please stop with these kind of things.

HP_TECH

Hi,

Sorry but that is what you make of it.
The only ridiculous thing is your accusation towards him.
He can believe and/or acknowledge whatever he likes, just like you do, it has absolutely nothing to do with sects or whatever you accuse him of.

Besides this in his OP he said "I am not very confident about my English as I do not practise it very much, so please be comprehensive and do not hesitate to correct me if needs be."
So please stop with these kind of things.

There is an overall trend of people on this forum trying to reinvent the wheel at every turn and I won't stand for it if I can help it.
He asked for correction and I have given it.
My correction is stern but is not wrong, I am not as passive as others in my delivery but I am just as concerned and caring

Man_of_Faith

Believe in English has multiple connotations and for certain of them believe can be used, but if it means "to think something to be true" then this does not fit the word "Alif-Miim-Nun". Amen does mean "to realize", "make real" and when you realize something this is something you acknowledge then. Za-Nun is the Arabic word for believing/thinking/assuming. Amen is a stronger sense of realization than that.

Wellness to you
Amenuel

Bender

There is an overall trend of people on this forum trying to reinvent the wheel at every turn and I won't stand for it if I can help it.
He asked for correction and I have given it.
My correction is stern but is not wrong, I am not as passive as others in my delivery but I am just as concerned and caring

Hi,

I might be wrong but to me it looked more like an accusation the a correction.

Anyway I think I understood what he meant with "I can proudly say I do not believe in God, rather, I acknowledge His existence,"
He reached a level that is more then believing. I think a lot of people here have reached that level.
He is not separating himself from the rest, it is just a feeling he has, it has nothing to do with getting fancy or trying to look more special then the rest.
Of course this is also just a speculation from me.

HP_TECH

Then if I misjudged I offer to him my deepest my apology.
I just don't want to see people discard away definitions which are still valid. Others might have a hard time grasping the difference between acknowledgement and belief. They still mean the same when they say I believe firmly, or with certainty or with no doubt.
I was concerned that these little nuances might cause a divide, but perhaps I was too rash in concluding such.

mmkhan

Then if I misjudged I offer to him my deepest my apology.
I just don't want to see people discard away definitions which are still valid. Others might have a hard time grasping the difference between acknowledgement and belief. They still mean the same when they say I believe firmly, or with certainty or with no doubt.
I was concerned that these little nuances might cause a divide, but perhaps I was too rash in concluding such.

Peace,

2260 may help you understand the difference, inshaAllah.

And when Abraham said, "My Lord, show me how You give life to the dead." said, "Have you not believed?" He said, "Yes, but only that my heart may be satisfied." said, "Take four birds and commit them to yourself. Then put on each hill a portion of them; then call them - they will come to you in haste. And know that Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise."

HP_TECH

Peace,

2260 may help you understand the difference, inshaAllah.

And when Abraham said, "My Lord, show me how You give life to the dead." said, "Have you not believed?" He said, "Yes, but only that my heart may be satisfied." said, "Take four birds and commit them to yourself. Then put on each hill a portion of them; then call them - they will come to you in haste. And know that Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise."

I am confused about two things.

I think I understand the difference..... unless you think I am showing lack of understanding.
I do not see how this ayaat demonstrates a difference? Are we talking between Iman and zanna?

If 1 happens to be the case could you more clearly explain if you don't mind, how 2260 clarifies that difference in 2?

mmkhan

I am confused about two things.

I think I understand the difference..... unless you think I am showing lack of understanding.
I do not see how this ayaat demonstrates a difference? Are we talking between Iman and zanna?

If 1 happens to be the case could you more clearly explain if you don't mind, how 2260 clarifies that difference in 2?

Peace,

There is no mention of "zanna" in this aayat. But the difference is between "Eimaan" and "Yaqeen".

Ezio

Peace everyone and sorry for the late answer,

Well, I did not expect to raise such - if not any - confusion ^^

The above in red is the perfect example of people trying to divide themselves into sects.
By redefining words that already make perfect sense.

And proves lack of understanding of words.
If you acknowledge the existence of God you by default believe.

People need to really define their terms clearly before making statements like these, because there are different mesnings the word believe can convey.
It can convey certainty in something without absolute proof and even an assumption or supposing.
For all purposes when we Muslims are speaking about believing in God we are of course conveying certainty without absolute proof.

So why try to exclude yourself from the lot by trying to use fancy vocabulary.

Ridiculous

Now. If you'll excuse me

There is an overall trend of people on this forum trying to reinvent the wheel at every turn and I won't stand for it if I can help it.
He asked for correction and I have given it.
My correction is stern but is not wrong, I am not as passive as others in my delivery but I am just as concerned and caring

Then if I misjudged I offer to him my deepest my apology.
I just don't want to see people discard away definitions which are still valid. Others might have a hard time grasping the difference between acknowledgement and belief. They still mean the same when they say I believe firmly, or with certainty or with no doubt.
I was concerned that these little nuances might cause a divide, but perhaps I was too rash in concluding such.

HP_TECH, first of all, thank you for your concern and for trying to correct me when you thought I made a mistake, but I haven't.
Besides, like Bender said, your "correction" sounded more like an accusation, which is funny considering that you do not know me.
But hey, apology accepted ^^
Now, I am the last person on Earth who would like to create any kind of division between my fellow brothers and sisters in humanity, as this would go against my principles and God's commandments to make peace and create unity; And using a "fancy vocabulary" in order to try to "exclude myself from the lot" is far from anything I would do.

As I said to clashncruz earlier in this thread

@clashncruz
Sorry I got you confused !
What I meant is that I am certain of God's existence, which is the reason why I said I do not believe anymore as I oppose those two notions belief and certainty. But not everyone make that distinction, it is my personal view of things, so I understand your confusion ^^
I hope it is clearer now ^^

Peace )

I said here that this distinction I make between acknowledgement and belief is personal because I perfectly grasp the difference between those two notions while, like you said yourself, some people might have a hard time understanding that difference, like you, it seems (one time you say that he who acknowledges believes, and an other time, you say that some people might not grasp the difference, therefore implying you agree there is a difference. A lack of understanding of words, maybe ? lol ^^).

See, I have absolute proof for instance, when I see the world all around me with its perfection shining through the cracks of its imperfections, I see God's fingerprint. The world is imbued with the divine. You might call this subjective because not everyone see it that way, especially if you talk to an atheist, but in the reality we live in, it is very objective, very impartial, because it is a fact God is.

Bender understood perfectly what I meant

Anyway I think I understood what he meant with "I can proudly say I do not believe in God, rather, I acknowledge His existence,"
He reached a level that is more then believing. I think a lot of people here have reached that level.
He is not separating himself from the rest, it is just a feeling he has, it has nothing to do with getting fancy or trying to look more special then the rest.

And again, like Man of Faith said, I do not think (=belief) God exists, I am SURE (=acknowledgement) of it.
I do not hope He exists, I SEE it (I do not mean I see God, obviously).
Though, I shouldn't even say He "exists", as I also make a clear difference between existing and being, between existence and essence, but this is another story; here, it will only add more confusion and besides, I think there is way more appropriate sections to talk about this.

Well, I hope I definitely made things clear pertaining to this issue ^^

I will finish by quoting Man of Faith

Believing is not optimal.

Peace HP_TECH and everyone !

reel

Nice meeting you Ezio. I like your introduction. Welcome to the forum.

I think we get so lost in the idea of believing in God that we end up thinking that this is the only thing we are required to uphold as Muslims. I truly have started to believe that this is one of the reasons why some end up choosing atheism. The point is that we need to love him and this isn't possible without getting to know him first. Love can't be forced and love does not equal to just belief. The only way to know him is by applying the Quranic verses into our lives.

Comrox

Peace,

I think we get so lost in the idea of believing in God that we end up thinking that this is the only thing we are required to uphold as Muslims. I truly have started to believe that this is one of the reasons why some end up choosing atheism. The point is that we need to love him and this isn't possible without getting to know him first. Love can't be forced and love does not equal to just belief. The only way to know him is by applying the Quranic verses into our lives.

I really like the first statement you made here. It's so important that we look beyond the belief part in a sense and think about how our lives can be improved and enriched and how we can become better people. )

Ezio

Peace,

Nice meeting you too reel ^^

You and Comrox are absolutely right, and as you said, love does not equal to just belief, that is why I said I got passed this point.

Anyway, like you said Comrox, we do need to see beyond and work to become better people, but belief - or acknowledgement, if you can get there - is important take two people, for example; the two of them are sure they do righteous works and good deeds every day, but one of them is an atheist - or pretend to believe - and the other, a true believer. Each one of them therefore follows a different moral code, which leads them to handle things in a different way let's say those two persons are judges, and they are confronted with the case of an infamous thief, finally apprehended after years of successful and very profitable burglaries, and let's say they have all the proof they need to charge him with grand theft. The atheist surely will put the thief under arrest and off he goes to spend a great amount of time in prison. The believer, on the other hand, will just cut off all of his resources that he uses to commit his crimes and maybe even put him under light surveillance for some time so that he will never be able to commit thievery ever again.

Of course, this is not the case with everybody, atheist or believer, I generalise here, but you see the picture. Humans' moral code comes and goes with the human culture, it is not set in stone, unlike God's moral compass. Atheists or religious people (I am excluding "islam" here because peacemaking is not a religion) can pretend all they want they do good because they have empathy or/and they have been taught that way, and so on and so forth... but what will happen when their moral compass will change of direction because the norms and tolerance parameters of the society will have changed in the first place ?

Among other things, we have to acknowledge/believe in/accept God if we want to be better people, for He is like a father and we are His children. He knows better.

"For God changes not the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves."

The Reading 1311

Peace