hello_world !

Comrox

Anyway, like you said Comrox, we do need to see beyond and work to become better people, but belief - or acknowledgement, if you can get there - is important take two people, for example; the two of them are sure they do righteous works and good deeds every day, but one of them is an atheist - or pretend to believe - and the other, a true believer. Each one of them therefore follows a different moral code, which leads them to handle things in a different way let's say those two persons are judges, and they are confronted with the case of an infamous thief, finally apprehended after years of successful and very profitable burglaries, and let's say they have all the proof they need to charge him with grand theft. The atheist surely will put the thief under arrest and off he goes to spend a great amount of time in prison. The believer, on the other hand, will just cut off all of his resources that he uses to commit his crimes and maybe even put him under light surveillance for some time so that he will never be able to commit thievery ever again.

Of course, this is not the case with everybody, atheist or believer, I generalise here, but you see the picture. Humans' moral code comes and goes with the human culture, it is not set in stone, unlike God's moral compass. Atheists or religious people (I am excluding "islam" here because peacemaking is not a religion) can pretend all they want they do good because they have empathy or/and they have been taught that way, and so on and so forth... but what will happen when their moral compass will change of direction because the norms and tolerance parameters of the society will have changed in the first place ?

Among other things, we have to acknowledge/believe in/accept God if we want to be better people, for He is like a father and we are His children. He knows better.

"For God changes not the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves."

The Reading 1311

Peace

Peace,

I think the simple fact that both the atheist and believer will agree that the thief must be punished in some way is most important. The details can be worked out later. I agree with you that moral values/beliefs can change depending on culture/upbringing/etc.

Interesting that you included that verse. I'm curious what was your intention when you quoted it.

Man_of_Faith

Am I the only one who thinks the most important thing is that the thief is rectified?

Comrox

Am I the only one who thinks the most important thing is that the thief is rectified?

I agree, I thought that's what I wrote.

Man_of_Faith

Well, rectified is having assisted the person in order that they reform themselves. A prison sentence does not reform a person which did do the original crime because they are alienated from the society and/or went wrong in their life. Punishment is about revenge.

Ezio

Peace everyone,

Exactly Man of Faith, prison is more about revenge than justice; human justice never has been about justice actually. And that is the point of my example about the thief prison does not suit his crime; besides, once he is in prison, what will happen to his family, if he has one ? what if his family depended on him financially, for instance ?

But just a little about the believer and atheist, if both decide to cling to scholars then both of them are in the same pool. brickwall

That is why I said

one of them is an atheist - or pretend to believe - and the other, a true believer.

What I meant is that the atheist or the religious person (who relies on scholars, priests, and so on) are to be lumped together here. I should have been more accurate, sorry.

Interesting that you included that verse. I'm curious what was your intention when you quoted it.

Well, you previously said that we have to think about how our lives can be improved and enriched, and I agree with you, that is why I put that verse we have to evolve in a good way as humans so that the world will evolve in the same way.

Peace

Comrox

Well, you previously said that we have to think about how our lives can be improved and enriched, and I agree with you, that is why I put that verse we have to evolve in a good way as humans so that the world will evolve in the same way.

Peace

Peace Ezio,

Got it. It's a great verse.

Ezio

Indeed ^^

Peace

Ezio

Peace brothers and sisters,

It's been a while, and frankly, I do not know if this is the right place to talk about what I am about to say, so moderators, don't hesitate to correct me on this matter.

As you may know, "traditional ramadhan" is near, and so for the first time, I am not going to follow it because of a meticulous study of the Noble Reading without the traditionalist point of view but rather in light of reason, critical thinking and, I hope, God's guidance.

Point is, I said so to my mother (and grandmother who was with her at that moment) and you cannot begin to imagine her reaction. She basically exploded with anger, yelling, among other things, that she won't let me (as if she had power over that). Don't get me wrong, I love her and honestly, I somehow understand her she was brainwashed since a kid by traditionalist "muslims" and, as she told me, she doesn't want me to face Hell. That's allright, I told her the same about her, but I am her son, so basically, and that is her saying, she knows better on islam than I do.

Anyway, I tried to explain to her that shahr doesn't mean month, that she is basically following ahadith, that I have studied the quran on this matter, the Arabic language, and so on and so forth... nothing, as expected. Her reaction is still that of a nuclear warhead...
They even ask me "So tell me, if ramadhan is not in the quran, then is salat in the quran ? is hajj in the quran ?" And keep in mind that only my grandmother does the Sunni salat, goes to hajj and wear a headscarf, none of my parents (both in the 50's) do any of that... yet.
So I reply yes, but not in the way they practice it. As you may guess, it didn't get better, and apparently, I am inhabited by the devil himself... I mean, what an honor nope

But the worst is that she and my traditionalist grandmother (as well as my father) are following the ahadith literature without even knowing it I tell them they are following the ahadith of Bukhari and Co., but "No !" they say, "we are merely quoting the quran !" I mean... Really ?!
So I tell them that there is nowhere, in the 114 chapters of the quran, a description of the traditionalist salat (no rakka, no anything), and this is where you can measure the depth of their knowledge on the matter of islam which, as they themselves say, has been taught to them since their childhood according to them, the quran is not just 114 suras, but there is a lot more to it, many books as thick as the one I have (the quran). So I said I was right, they are following ahadith. Again, they replied in the negative, explaining to me, and fasten your seat belts, it is about to be epic "there is 60 hizbs that constitute the quran, not just 114 suras"

My reaction ? brickwall

I tried to explain to them what hizbs are. Care to guess their reaction ? Exactly, same as usual ignore
Oh and that I should consult a psychologist to get my brain washed elektro

My mom wants us (her and I) to go meet with the imam by tomorrow, so I ask him about salat in the quran, and so on. Because again, as they say, God has put imams and the likes in the position to enlighten us on the meaning of the quran I do not have the right to try to understand it by myself...

Well... usual traditionalist crap, right ?

Honeslty, I already know the imam won't be able to answer, that he will say "there is no description of the salat in the quran, but in the ahadith..." anyway, I told her, I do not follow the clergy... but does she care ?

So brothers and sisters, what should I do about this situation ? And keep in mind this is mostly about the coming "month of ramadhan" that they absolutly want me to do as usual. Their reactions just give me the chills and I do not know how to deal with them or their ignorance (I tried to ignore them on that matter, but you may know that most warheads are target-tracking missiles, so...)

Peace ! (

HP_TECH

Peace brothers and sisters,

It's been a while, and frankly, I do not know if this is the right place to talk about what I am about to say, so moderators, don't hesitate to correct me on this matter.

As you may know, "traditional ramadhan" is near, and so for the first time, I am not going to follow it because of a meticulous study of the Noble Reading without the traditionalist point of view but rather in light of reason, critical thinking and, I hope, God's guidance.

Point is, I said so to my mother (and grandmother who was with her at that moment) and you cannot begin to imagine her reaction. She basically exploded with anger, yelling, among other things, that she won't let me (as if she had power over that). Don't get me wrong, I love her and honestly, I somehow understand her she was brainwashed since a kid by traditionalist "muslims" and, as she told me, she doesn't want me to face Hell. That's allright, I told her the same about her, but I am her son, so basically, and that is her saying, she knows better on islam than I do.

Anyway, I tried to explain to her that shahr doesn't mean month, that she is basically following ahadith, that I have studied the quran on this matter, the Arabic language, and so on and so forth... nothing, as expected. Her reaction is still that of a nuclear warhead...
They even ask me "So tell me, if ramadhan is not in the quran, then is salat in the quran ? is hajj in the quran ?" And keep in mind that only my grandmother does the Sunni salat, goes to hajj and wear a headscarf, none of my parents (both in the 50's) do any of that... yet.
So I reply yes, but not in the way they practice it. As you may guess, it didn't get better, and apparently, I am inhabited by the devil himself... I mean, what an honor nope

But the worst is that she and my traditionalist grandmother (as well as my father) are following the ahadith literature without even knowing it I tell them they are following the ahadith of Bukhari and Co., but "No !" they say, "we are merely quoting the quran !" I mean... Really ?!
So I tell them that there is nowhere, in the 114 chapters of the quran, a description of the traditionalist salat (no rakka, no anything), and this is where you can measure the depth of their knowledge on the matter of islam which, as they themselves say, has been taught to them since their childhood according to them, the quran is not just 114 suras, but there is a lot more to it, many books as thick as the one I have (the quran). So I said I was right, they are following ahadith. Again, they replied in the negative, explaining to me, and fasten your seat belts, it is about to be epic "there is 60 hizbs that constitute the quran, not just 114 suras"

My reaction ? brickwall

I tried to explain to them what hizbs are. Care to guess their reaction ? Exactly, same as usual ignore
Oh and that I should consult a psychologist to get my brain washed elektro

My mom wants us (her and I) to go meet with the imam by tomorrow, so I ask him about salat in the quran, and so on. Because again, as they say, God has put imams and the likes in the position to enlighten us on the meaning of the quran I do not have the right to try to understand it by myself...

Well... usual traditionalist crap, right ?

Honeslty, I already know the imam won't be able to answer, that he will say "there is no description of the salat in the quran, but in the ahadith..." anyway, I told her, I do not follow the clergy... but does she care ?

So brothers and sisters, what should I do about this situation ? And keep in mind this is mostly about the coming "month of ramadhan" that they absolutly want me to do as usual. Their reactions just give me the chills and I do not know how to deal with them or their ignorance (I tried to ignore them on that matter, but you may know that most warheads are target-tracking missiles, so...)

Peace !

Peace Ezio
Sei Italiano?

On one hand I sympathize with you regarding your parents opposing you and supporting traditions and ahadith. I have gone through similar things with parents and Sunni "friends".
But on the other hand I am left wondering why in the world would you disclose that to your parents, if you are not going to do it then do so in a private matter and avoid confrontation and conflict, sneak your meals in your room and etc..

Also though, I think you have taken it for granted that Ramadhan is being observed in the wrong month, and you are also taking for granted that shahr does not mean month.

You are going to have to clarify for me what you think the exact right time for Ramadhan is and what you think shahr means

Thanks

Ezio

Peace HP_TECH,

Thank you for your answer.

I am not Italian, I just love the name
What about you, are you Italian or do you just speak it ?

To answer your question about why I told my parents, well, I cannot sneak meals in my room given that during ramadhan, my mother and grandmother are almost always in the kitchen, and even when they are not, they are in the living room, right next to it, so impossible to be discreet here in any way.
I would have kept it for myself, but it is unnecessary here.

As for the meaning of ramadhan and shahr, it is per my understanding only, I do not impose my view on anyone of course.
I understand ramadhan to mean "scorching heat" or "vehemently hot/heated" and shahr to mean "full moon", so shahr ramadhan then points to the full moon of a scorching heat period, namely around the summer solstice.

Although I believe the exact period known as shahr ramadhan in the quran does not really matter, because to me, the verse 2185 does not say we should fast on shahr ramadhan, but rather that we should fast if we witness a full moon (i.e., at any time of the year), and it is the full moon we should fast, so fasting is for 1 to 3 days (given the moon seems full for 3 days).
In the verse, there is two statements, and in the first one, Shahr ramadhan just refers to the period when the revelation occurred. In the second one, it tells us to fast whenever we witness/see a full moon.

Again, this is my understanding (for now, it can change, as studying the quran is an enjoyable never-ending process), which I discuss in this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608232.0

Peace

Taro_Hiroshi

Peace Ezio,

Welcome to the forum. )

So brothers and sisters, what should I do about this situation ? And keep in mind this is mostly about the coming "month of ramadhan" that they absolutly want me to do as usual. Their reactions just give me the chills and I do not know how to deal with them or their ignorance (I tried to ignore them on that matter, but you may know that most warheads are target-tracking missiles, so...)

I recommend reading the posts below.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607698.msg373829#msg373829

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607698.msg373895#msg373895

Hopefully, you will find them useful/helpful.

HP_TECH

I consider myself Italian, I was born and raised in Italy but most caucasian natives will never accept me as a true Italian haha. So let's just say I speak Italian.

Thanks for clarifying your views.
I do not agree with your interpretation for the following reasons

• Quran states there are 12 shahrs from he beginning in the ordinance of Our Lord. 936

• Quran states that Ramadhan is one of these shahr 2185

• Quran states Ramadhan is the shahr in which Quran was revealed 2185

• Shahr root meaning favors the notion of month
Shahr
Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.

• al-ahilati( new moons) being indicators of periods for the people and for the hajj and time keeping 2189

• Your understanding that shahr means full moon is not supported by Quran which rather directs that shahrs are indicated by crescent moons 3639, and conveys moons have phases 105

All these points and evidences from the Quran dismiss the notion of the fast being during a specific phase of the moon. The fast is during the shahr which is a period of time not a phase.
We know this because a full moon is one of the manazila as crescent moon indicated in 3639 not a shahr.

My current understanding may also change to the correct understanding if not already if Allah so wills to guide me.

But I am sure you now see where you may reinforce your understanding

Peace

Comrox

Peace brothers and sisters,

It's been a while, and frankly, I do not know if this is the right place to talk about what I am about to say, so moderators, don't hesitate to correct me on this matter.

As you may know, "traditional ramadhan" is near, and so for the first time, I am not going to follow it because of a meticulous study of the Noble Reading without the traditionalist point of view but rather in light of reason, critical thinking and, I hope, God's guidance.

Point is, I said so to my mother (and grandmother who was with her at that moment) and you cannot begin to imagine her reaction. She basically exploded with anger, yelling, among other things, that she won't let me (as if she had power over that). Don't get me wrong, I love her and honestly, I somehow understand her she was brainwashed since a kid by traditionalist "muslims" and, as she told me, she doesn't want me to face Hell. That's allright, I told her the same about her, but I am her son, so basically, and that is her saying, she knows better on islam than I do.

Anyway, I tried to explain to her that shahr doesn't mean month, that she is basically following ahadith, that I have studied the quran on this matter, the Arabic language, and so on and so forth... nothing, as expected. Her reaction is still that of a nuclear warhead...
They even ask me "So tell me, if ramadhan is not in the quran, then is salat in the quran ? is hajj in the quran ?" And keep in mind that only my grandmother does the Sunni salat, goes to hajj and wear a headscarf, none of my parents (both in the 50's) do any of that... yet.
So I reply yes, but not in the way they practice it. As you may guess, it didn't get better, and apparently, I am inhabited by the devil himself... I mean, what an honor nope

But the worst is that she and my traditionalist grandmother (as well as my father) are following the ahadith literature without even knowing it I tell them they are following the ahadith of Bukhari and Co., but "No !" they say, "we are merely quoting the quran !" I mean... Really ?!
So I tell them that there is nowhere, in the 114 chapters of the quran, a description of the traditionalist salat (no rakka, no anything), and this is where you can measure the depth of their knowledge on the matter of islam which, as they themselves say, has been taught to them since their childhood according to them, the quran is not just 114 suras, but there is a lot more to it, many books as thick as the one I have (the quran). So I said I was right, they are following ahadith. Again, they replied in the negative, explaining to me, and fasten your seat belts, it is about to be epic "there is 60 hizbs that constitute the quran, not just 114 suras"

My reaction ? brickwall

I tried to explain to them what hizbs are. Care to guess their reaction ? Exactly, same as usual ignore
Oh and that I should consult a psychologist to get my brain washed elektro

My mom wants us (her and I) to go meet with the imam by tomorrow, so I ask him about salat in the quran, and so on. Because again, as they say, God has put imams and the likes in the position to enlighten us on the meaning of the quran I do not have the right to try to understand it by myself...

Well... usual traditionalist crap, right ?

Honeslty, I already know the imam won't be able to answer, that he will say "there is no description of the salat in the quran, but in the ahadith..." anyway, I told her, I do not follow the clergy... but does she care ?

So brothers and sisters, what should I do about this situation ? And keep in mind this is mostly about the coming "month of ramadhan" that they absolutly want me to do as usual. Their reactions just give me the chills and I do not know how to deal with them or their ignorance (I tried to ignore them on that matter, but you may know that most warheads are target-tracking missiles, so...)

Peace !

Peace Ezio and welcome back to the forum,

If I were you I would let this issue settle for a few days. You've stirred up their thoughts and emotions. It also sounds like you've stirred up your own emotions. Give them and yourself the time they need to think about what you've said. Take it slow. They also need to be calm and in a good, happy state of mind when you speak to them again about what you're feeling on the Ramadan issue. Be gentle and be patient. It's life-altering for someone to question beliefs that you have held so dear for your entire life, especially if that person is a family member. Anger, defensiveness, and fear is all normal. It can take a lot of time for some people to process once they get over their initial shock.

I would go and talk to the imam as they wish. The very act of you agreeing to go, and actually going, could ease some of their emotions. That sounds like what they need right now.

Try to bring it up again when you're all calm and ready to talk. Ask your mother if she would allow you to speak without interruption and you can get all your thoughts out there, openly and honestly. Then allow her to speak. Address her concerns. I'm sure she's now fearful that you're going to leave "Islam" completely. You don't have to agree on this issue. But I'm sure you both love each other and will continue loving each other. Just try to be as respectful as possible and God wiling, your mother and grandmother can respect your beliefs in turn. Answer any questions she may have. If you can, explain why you believe as you do, so they understand, and explain how your newfound beliefs and research have positively affected you. If it's awkward for her to explain to family and friends when they visit why you're not fasting, see if you can agree to explain for her.

Brace yourself for the worst. Make sure you know what to expect and that you're making the right decision. If you have already decided not to fast with them, I would brace yourself for a lack of family support and possible isolation from family events and the like.

Good luck. I hope you, your mother, and your grandmother can all be on good terms one day soon.

virginia

Hi!!!!!!

Just image how many guests are cheking this forum for a long time now, not having joined it, just searching and learning and wondering... I decided to join it after a long time just reading as a guests. If the people here only knew how much good they are doing just being here.... Every guests is a soul wondering...
Welcome!!!!