Does salat really means 'Ritual Prayers' ?
-
Peace Wakas.
I really am assuming that "reveal" / inspire" does mean teach and why not?
If you happen to agree that GOD revealed to Abraham how to establish salat ,then how come you are not assuming ,but I am?
The bottom line is this
I have no idea how one comes to the conclusion that salat is taught in hadith. If you put a person on an island with hadith books only , he will know how to perform salat?Actually if one has not witnessed people doing "salat", by watching and learning from each other, no one will know how to do salat?
GOD has "taught" ( revealed /inspired)Abraham how to do salat according to Qoran. Then Abraham taught his children/people, then it was taught down the line to our day.
GOD only corrected the corruption that were introduced into "salat" or changed certain instruction that he made clear in the scriptures that followed Abraham. GOD tries generations according to HIS knowledge and wisdom.
That is my understanding about "salat".
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace be with you all
I hope some of the brothers here do not make the errors of presuming that "Salat" is only ordained or obligated upon muslims from the time of Ibrahim. We know that The Deen of Allah ( Deen Al Islam) went back to ante-deluvian time or at least since the time of Prophet Nuh, perhaps even all the way back to the advent of intelligent human beings. We could see this through AQ 4213 which is as follows..
4213 "
Transliteration 13 SharaAAa lakum mina alddeeni ma wassa bihi noohan waallathee awhayna ilayka wama wassayna bihi ibraheema wamoosa waAAeesa an aqeemoo alddeena wala tatafarraqoo feehi kabura AAala almushrikeena ma tadAAoohum ilayhi Allahu yajtabee ilayhi man yashao wayahdee ilayhi man yuneebuYusuf Ali 13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
Mohsin Khan 13 He (Allah) has ordained for you the same religion (Islamic Monotheism) which He ordained for Nuh (Noah), and that which We have revealed to you (O Muhammad م, and that which We ordained for Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses) and '?sa (Jesus) saying you should establish religion (i.e. to do what it orders you to do practically), and make no divisions in it (religion) (i.e. various sects in religion). Intolerable for the Mushrikun, is that (Islamic Monotheism) to which you (O Muhammad م call them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills, and guides unto Himself who turns to Him in repentance and in obedience.
Saheeh 13 He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, , and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein. Difficult for those who associate others with Allah is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back .
We have no reason to doubt that theDeen mentioned in verse is none other that Deenul Islam which we all know enjoined salat in it. We can go further back than even the time of Nuh if we care to look at these verses 319 and 383.
"
Transliteration 19 Inna alddeena AAinda Allahi alislamu wama ikhtalafa allatheena ootoo alkitaba illa min baAAdi ma jaahumu alAAilmu baghyan baynahum waman yakfur biayati Allahi fainna Allaha sareeAAu alhisabiYusuf Ali 19 The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will) Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
Mohsin Khan 19 Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.
Saheeh 19 Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah, then indeed, Allah is swift in account
And 383
"
Transliteration 83 Afaghayra deeni Allahi yabghoona walahu aslama man fee alssamawati waalardi tawAAan wakarhan wailayhi yurjaAAoonaYusuf Ali 83 Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah?-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back.
Mohsin Khan 83 Do they seek other than the religion of Allah (the true Islamic Monotheism - worshipping none but Allah Alone), while to Him submitted all creatures in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly. And to Him shall they all be returned.
Saheeh 83 So is it other than the religion of Allah they desire, while to Him have submitted those within the heavens and earth, willingly or by compulsion, and to Him they will be returned?
If salat was really the ritual prayers as most muslims believe, we would have seen traces of those communities from the earliest time or even just from the time of Nuh down to the time of Isa ibnu Maryam, at least in the forms of inscriptions or crude drawings regarding the performance of the so called ritual prayers. The fact remains to be seen, as at from the time of writing, I am not yet aware of any archaeological finding in respect of this very important matters to all muslims.
Peace
almarh0m -
Peace Wakas.
...........
..........................
The bottom line is this
I have no idea how one comes to the conclusion that salat is taught in hadith. If you put a person on an island with hadith books only , he will know how to perform salat?Actually if one has not witnessed people doing "salat", by watching and learning from each other, no one will know how to do salat?
I fully agree with you GL
it is impossible to perform salah by reading Ahadith
and the same holds true for Quran also .(i know what will be next answer of JAQs(Jamat ie Alhulu Quran) .it might be " quran has detailed everything and not believing in that is kufur"of course you may come out with a verse from quran )
but the reality is quran does not have the exact procedure of salah .we cannot expect ALLAH subhanavatala will send diagrams about salah (it may be bit weird way to talk but this what you people wanted) .so salah was there from the time of Ibrahim aslasisalam and may be much before him as almarh0m said in his postSaheeh verse 42.13 He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, , and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein. Difficult for those who associate others with Allah is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back .
why quran does not give procedure of salah .....the answer is as follows (which was answered by GL and i am making few improvisations )
Actually if one has not witnessed people doing "salat", by watching and learning from each other, no one will know how to do salat?
GOD has "taught" ( revealed /inspired)Abraham how to do salat according to Qoran. Then Abraham taught his children/people, then it was taught down the line to our day.
Again ,i whole heartily accept the view point of GL,You cannot learn salah without watching it .one question remained unanswered by GL is that ,how did ALLAH subhanavatala thought Salah to Ibrahim alasisalam .note that it is clearly mention in quran ALLAH subahnmavatala never talked to anyone directly except to Musa alaissalam .so this leaves with two options ,either by dreams or by sending angel
GOD only corrected the corruption that were introduced into "salat" or changed certain instruction that he made clear in the scriptures that followed Abraham. GOD tries generations according to HIS knowledge and wisdom.
Again ,GL is correct
ALLAH subhanavatala corrected or changed few instructions .because surah muzammil
Surah 73 Aya 4
Or add to it, and recite the Qur'an with measured recitationALLAH subahnavatala instruct our prophet to read quran in the salah till then ,it implies, our prophet was reciting something else in his which i cannot assume (17.36)
yes there might be corrections as well .
The question is ,how those corrections and changes were made .if it was thru written instruction then those instruction will be there in quran ,(as instructed about safaa and marwa in hajj) further note that our prophet never had revelations in dreams as it happen in the case Ibrahim alaissalam ,so this changes and instruction must have been thought by Gibrial alaissalam .tell me where i am standing now -
There is a bit of misconception here, the rites that Ibrahim and Ismail asked the Lord to teach them was concerning the Hajj not salat.
You people are acting like the jews who asked 21 questions about slaughtering one simple cow.
Stand bow prostrate, does anyone need to be taught how to stand, bow and prostrate? Or is it something that needs to be passed down from generation to generation? They are simple and clear movements, yet you people like to complicate everything!
What color is she? What age is she? Just slaughter the cow already!
Come on! I seek refuge in Allah that I be among the ignorant ones!
-
There is a bit of misconception here, the rites that Ibrahim and Ismail asked the Lord to teach them was concerning the Hajj not salat.
Oh! this is a misconception than
ok ,let see few verses and decide what were these people doing
Verse 3.39So the angels called him while he was standing in prayer in the chamber, "Indeed, Allah gives you good tidings of John, confirming a word from Allah and honorable, abstaining , and a prophet from among the righteous."
what did zakaria alassalam was doing in his chamber ....standing and just saying ALLAH...ALLAH....ALLAH....or he was praying like his forefather ,Ibrahim alasissalam
If ,rukhu and sujood were not the part of prayer , then why did ALLAH subhanvatala was commanding Mariam alasissalam to bow and make rukhu with those who are doing this action
Surah 3 Aya 43
O Mary, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow ."
Ok ,one more example for the procedure of prayer
Verse 4.102And when you are among them and lead them in prayer, let a group of them stand with you and let them carry their arms. And when they have prostrated, let them be behind you and have the other group come forward which has not prayed and let them pray with you, taking precaution and carrying their arms. Those who disbelieve wish that you would neglect your weapons and your baggage so they could come down upon you in one attack. But there is no blame upon you, if you are troubled by rain or are ill, for putting down your arms, but take precaution. Indeed, Allah has prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
The classical example of two rakas
One more example
Verse 48.29
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating , seeking bounty from Allah and pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.
does the above verse are referring to hajj or salah .Have a heart HP_T
You people are acting like the jews who asked 21 questions about slaughtering one simple cow.
.....
What color is she? What age is she? Just slaughter the cow already!Yeah , i remember one more verse regarding Jews
Verse 2.83
And when We took the covenant from the Children of Israel, , "Do not worship except Allah; and to parents do good and to relatives, orphans, and the needy. And speak to people good and establish prayer and give zakah." Then you turned away, except a few of you, and you were refusing.Verse 2.84
And when We took your covenant, , "Do not shed each other's blood or evict one another from your homes." Then you acknowledged while you were witnessing.Verse 2.85
Then, you are those killing one another and evicting a party of your people from their homes, cooperating against them in sin and aggression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their eviction was forbidden to you. So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do. -
Oh! this is a misconception than
ok ,let see few verses and decide what were these people doing
Verse 3.39So the angels called him while he was standing in prayer in the chamber, "Indeed, Allah gives you good tidings of John, confirming a word from Allah and honorable, abstaining , and a prophet from among the righteous."
what did zakaria alassalam was doing in his chamber ....standing and just saying ALLAH...ALLAH....ALLAH....or he was praying like his forefather ,Ibrahim alasissalam
If ,rukhu and sujood were not the part of prayer , then why did ALLAH subhanvatala was commanding Mariam alasissalam to bow and make rukhu with those who are doing this action
Surah 3 Aya 43
O Mary, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow ."
Ok ,one more example for the procedure of prayer
Verse 4.102And when you are among them and lead them in prayer, let a group of them stand with you and let them carry their arms. And when they have prostrated, let them be behind you and have the other group come forward which has not prayed and let them pray with you, taking precaution and carrying their arms. Those who disbelieve wish that you would neglect your weapons and your baggage so they could come down upon you in one attack. But there is no blame upon you, if you are troubled by rain or are ill, for putting down your arms, but take precaution. Indeed, Allah has prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
The classical example of two rakas
One more example
Verse 48.29
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating , seeking bounty from Allah and pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.
does the above verse are referring to hajj or salah .Have a heart HP_T
Yeah , i remember one more verse regarding JewsVerse 2.83
And when We took the covenant from the Children of Israel, , "Do not worship except Allah; and to parents do good and to relatives, orphans, and the needy. And speak to people good and establish prayer and give zakah." Then you turned away, except a few of you, and you were refusing.Verse 2.84
And when We took your covenant, , "Do not shed each other's blood or evict one another from your homes." Then you acknowledged while you were witnessing.Verse 2.85
Then, you are those killing one another and evicting a party of your people from their homes, cooperating against them in sin and aggression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their eviction was forbidden to you. So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.I think you are arguing against the wrong person. I support all the movements indicated by Allah (standing, kneeling/bowing and prostrating) during salat and I perform my salat accordingly.
My argument is that these movements do not have a particular mandatory choreographic structure.
It is just as the instructions say simply stand bow and prostrate and it is up to the individuals to decide the particular details.
If one is alone he can vary according to his preference.
If some are in a group they can decide to stand throughout the entire Reading of the Quran and kneel and prostrate at the end of The Reading and in unison praise and glorify Allah AlHamdulillahi Rabilalameen All Praise to be to Allah Lord of the worldsEssentially my argument is that salat is not something that needs to be passed down its common sense, Ibrahim was not the first to establish salat in the worlds.
That claim is ridiculous there were many prophets before him, you read about them in Quran. -
Is it ignorant to question the fact that no explicit instruction exists for that salat ritual in a book claiming to be in detail? And the references are scattered all across that scripture?
I find it enlightened to then question that since it is witted to noticed such a thing. It is not logical that the most advanced intelligence in existence would not comprehensively write out about an allegedly important ritual.
And it is not sufficient to argue that the salat ritual was in place before the advent of Quran because if this is supposed to be a rectifying scripture then it has to teach an ignorant community on how to exactly perform the alleged ritual. Otherwise it is not complete.
Now almost everyone seems to take for granted that the root definitely has to mean "contact prayer" while multiple definitions exist within ancient Classical Arabic lexicons. Ancient interpreters played around with interpretation acrobatics to fit a strange activity into the context.
Be well
Amenuel -
I think you are arguing against the wrong person. I support all the movements indicated by Allah (standing, kneeling/bowing and prostrating) during salat and I perform my salat accordingly.
Very happy )
My argument is that these movements do not have a particular mandatory choreographic structure.
But they are ....HP_T (
It is just as the instructions say simply stand bow and prostrate and it is up to the individuals to decide the particular details.
If one is alone he can vary according to his preference.no ...you have no option ...salah is salah when it is perform with choreographic structure. peace
If some are in a group they can decide to stand throughout the entire Reading of the Quran and kneel and prostrate at the end of The Reading and in unison praise and glorify Allah AlHamdulillahi Rabilalameen All Praise to be to Allah Lord of the worlds
what ever .if you in group or you perfrom alone ,if it is salah then it is to be performed the way it is peace
Essentially my argument is that salat is not something that needs to be passed down its common sense, Ibrahim was not the first to establish salat in the worlds.
That claim is ridiculous there were many prophets before him, you read about them in Quran.Yes ,you may be correct ..salah was even before Ibrahim Assalissalam ...But ...as per the circumstantial evidences it is very clear that salah was passed down thru Tawatur .in the much similar manner in which quran was passed on to us )
Note i have used smileys at the end of each answer to make it different from stereotype answers pl take it in a good
sense
Regards
Mushtaq -
Very happy )But they are ....HP_T no ...you have no option ...salah is salah when it is perform with choreographic structure. peacewhat ever .if you in group or you perfrom alone ,if it is salah then it is to be performed the way it is peaceYes ,you may be correct ..salah was even before Ibrahim Assalissalam ...But ...as per the circumstantial evidences it is very clear that salah was passed down thru Tawatur .in the much similar manner in which quran was passed on to us )
Note i have used smileys at the end of each answer to make it different from stereotype answers pl take it in a good
sense
Regards
MushtaqPeace peace
-
May peace be with you all
I have been a member of FM forum for more than ten years and had been visiting the forum to read before that. In that time, I have been looking forward to seeing a consensus from forum members and contributors and especially from leading intellectuals of this FM forum as to the meaning of salat. If salat really means "ritual prayers", then where is the clear evidence from Al Qur'an as to how we go about performing this ritual prayer(s) or a clear detailed instructions from Allah or from his messenger? The reason I am asking this question is, because there just isn't clear explanation as to what salat is, and if salat is indeed ritual prayer(s) as commonly believed by muslims at large, then where are the verses that explain how to do this ritual prayer(s) as instructed by Allah or his messenger? Perhaps, it is an oversight by Allah? These questions below have to be answered if we are truly following Allah's guidance and his law.
- How do we start "The Ritual Prayer"?
2.What to read during this ritual prayer?
3.Do we perform this ritual prayer sitting down, standing up or lying down?
4.When is the time to perform this prayer?
- What direction do we face while doing this ritual prayer?
I have asked most of the people I know that claim to follow Qur'an and serve God only about this Salat = ritual prayer(s) notion, but alas none of them have found the answers to the above questions. So, perhaps some of the learned and knowledgeable brothers and sisters could enlighten me and others in respect of this matter of salat is ritual prayer(s).
My sincere thanks
almarh0m
Salaam I had sometimes with this question.
The Quran speakers of group PrAYer yet it also state's to stand in pair's or singly.
It speaks of hurrying to rememberance and to give praise after prostrations of adoration.It speaks of adoring your guardian Lord and ritual warnings with dust and water's.
It also speaks of the traces if their prostrations and people of the book falling down with years in their eyes.
As a believer (abrahamic monotheism)
I read about the true prophet model of Islam prophet Abraham not muhammad (check the Quran)
I then called up the bible stories and sacrifices are meantioned also a station or place in which we are all to pray.Culturally and biblically we touch our faces to the dust prone we are supposed to be vulnerable like your subdued for the last moments.
These posture though grim come to one being a Muslim (submitting with no resistance. Submitted as apose to one forcing the submittion from context)The standing and prostration is given numbers but you are commanded to do these home many times? Is a number given in text? Or like the Catholic chest cross just when rememberance occurs.
It says it once so maybe you should do it once.
The more rakats the better right? Or do good deeds follow a strange tally of score like bowling or golf or guessing a number between 4 and 2?
We are given direction then we are given a central point the kabaa house of prophet Abraham which ALLAH owns.
We are given motion the forehead to the ground which is culturally based like a white flag in war is a cultural thing someone made it up to communicate with someone else.The cleans or hygiene is given and the number of people is given.
The times not cultural but guided by the sin( when the sin gives a certain light and sky it's a certain time for people with watches and without )
What to do after these prayers give praise (good job ALLAH with everything ever! ALLAH is great! Hey everyone ALLAH is great it ALLAH akbar)The reading of surah is not really there but it's a respect to be able to quote from the authors book, ALLAH, showing a cult built around it and it being taken as a reality.
Do you really want Islam a religion I see as free in ritual as voodoo being able to offer anything to your God not just corn Gold or children lol.
lol just the bounds are given by parable testing the heart's of men like with kain and able testing their heart's for dedication and that occult reality of a book of stories like a cos-player or an otaku.Is Islam real to you realer than your 9-5 or your family? Or the social games with your peers? Reaper than peace and ever other urgency in your life?
Or are you simply world, this world being the only thing real and advancing socially is reaper than your God?
Check voodoo it's very close to an eariler relgion it had similar bounds to Islam yet it's bookless and tribal for culture ( making cultures each tribe having it's own ways and dress depending on the people the obey or apose parable common-sense bonds)Musa had a staff and some montheist priest ir priestess has a fetish which could simple be a staff.
Understand culture are clothes are cut after varies centuries of armour. They are never really fashion just for war socially, economically, even survival.
PrAYer is your dust covered rememberance ritual observing bounds it may look strange but we as a human race have gone from brothers and cousins to being completely estranged even in color.
-
Simply we went from burning things to ALLAH to kneeling before him.knights kneel to a kings and proforms now to an audience.
The Jews and christians don't have these things written because like a strange witchdocter in the rainforest of south americ a it's a free form display.
Group prayer is just the kneeling
Surah faiths is sites because it's context the surah is about witnessing people call to ALLAH and being filled with faith and bowing with them or it's a prelude to the discovery of life as a believer. The Quran tells a story remember how surah two starts?
There is a guide like in a masjid where someone is telling someone about the believers. It answer your questions along the read, are all these people believers? What does it take to be a believer? So I'm a believer already?Read the quran
-
Also it it's about point the finger toward the kabaa then maybe someone should go inside and take the station of Abraham so the surah of faiths would be more clear and reinvent. Look into the house of Abraham so see a man pray to ALLAH is what that surah is all about. Abraham is the prophet of our faith so everyone else is following him.
The pointing seems like a barring witness type thing. That's the kabba point in the half marks of salaat.Thing Muhammad ever spent a night inside the kabba? He's slept in caves and stuff in the stories about him= hadith