Animal and souls

[Study]

I asked in a different topic if animals have "individuality"/"soul" and the topic started to lose it's original hypothesis (does God dwell inside of us).
I made this topic so that the other one wouldn't get off-track.

Man of Faith answered
Animals do not have any individuality and thus do not have any independent mind, i.e. they are not self-conscious that they are alive and behave like programmed machines, quite much like humans who are undeveloped and thus have no character (lifeless = al-mowt), humans who will act in predictable and obvious ways according to their instinct and which instinct that is all animals got. The human science of psychology is not wrong and you could learn a lot from there.

Humans do have an immense problem and that is the conflict between spirit and body since their superior "seed" has been attached to a lowly animalistic primate and this body causes to entice the superior being potential to take a path into conforming to its desires (the "shayatiin&quot, its primitive will as an animalistic being. Teachers of how to circumvent its shackles have been around for millennia such as Jesus who taught to "separate your spirit from the flesh". The implicit message has been there for generations and people have been warned of Satan without knowing what Satan is and hearkening unto clerics and scholars who made the Satan into a person but in fact the Satan is in you or rather in the conflicting and contradicting body of yours. It is those "whispers" of your mind influenced by the body which is Satan.

In the following I will argue against this statement/position.
Y'all are free to attack my position in any way you see fit.

Animals have been theorized to have self-awareness. The main difference between animals and humans is that they lack language.
The reason why we are able to "think" about many subjects is because we give meaning to ideas/objects/things

Ferdinand de Saussure's model of the "Linguistic sign"
We have a signifier and a signified
Let's take "tree" as an example.
The signifier would be the phonetic component (which would be /tri/), and the object that appears in our mind (visual representation of a tree) is the signified.

A bit more complex example would be "and".
The signifier again would be the phonetic component (the sound and letters of the word and= /?nd/)
The signified would be the concept, the meaning, the function of this word; which is extremely critical because it binds/connects not only ideas, but also functions in summations and conjuncts words, phrases and clauses.
All in all, the word "and" proves itself to be of crucial importance for our thoughts to be composed and make sense. Without it and without other words, we would not have the same intellect as we wouldn't be capable of "thinking" on a meta-cognitive level.

This means that without certain words, our ability to think about concepts would not exists.
Example the language Piraha has no words for colors or numbers.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDM8G5tuHF8

They literally can not count. Take 10 pencils show it to them. Make them throw the pencils into a box and take every pencil one after another out of the box and they won't realize that after the 10th one the box is empty.

This is the strength of language. The main argument I know of that hints at humans being superior to animals.
However I still am of the opinion that many animals have a self-awareness.
There is a test called hte "mirror self-recognition test".
Details can be found here
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

Quick summary. Animals are being put in front of the mirror and their behaviour analysed. Some animals have shown to comprehend that they are individual and are capable of seperating their own self from their environment. They're aware of their individuality.
Animals that failed these tests include dogs.
And Humans under the age of 18 months!

Even if they fail these self-awareness tests and are incapable of comprehending reality the way that we humans do.
Many animals have shown the ability of empathy.
Empathy is the capacity to place oneself into the position of another.

I find it ironic that some animals who fail at the SRTest succeed in Empathy tests. So that means what? They do not recognize their own individuality but are capable of comprehending others individuality?
Animals interact with one another, some animals build societies just like humans do. Such as for example pinguins.
Pinguins even have marriage! and another thing that pinguins do is prostitution https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAgAim926s0
Dogs who failed at the SRT, are shown to mourn alongside many other animals over the death of beloved ones. https//www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/200910/grief-in-animals-its-arrogant-think-were-the-only-animals-who-mourn

However the most important point to me will be this one.
Let's assume that animals have 0 self-awareness and no empathy at all.
Does that mean that they are not going to heaven(however one may define it)?
If yes then you're also condemning human babies to hell(or nonexistence) and many people who have mental problems.
Anosognosia for example a condition in which one has no self-awareness.
or Autism as another example many autistic people have shown an incapability to think from another perspective.

According to such logic all of them would not be able, no matter how much they tried to get into heaven (unless if God wills).

1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of; for the hearing, eyesight, and heart - all these you are responsible for.

My understanding of this verse We are responsible for the information we perceive, as explained before, what makes human kinds so special is our ability to think (language/thoughts) we perceive reality through eyesight and through hearing, whether or not our hearts are closed decides if we will think about certain stuff, or instead choose a simple satisfying solution.

The ones metioned above (animals and people with conditions) are incapable of these stuff. Animals have different strenghts and it only makes sense if they'd be be responsible for what they can uphold. So I'd imagine dogs being responsible for their smell, as they can smell many things that we can't fathom.

2286 God does not burden a soul except with what it can bear. For it is what it earns, and against it is what it earns. "Our Lord, do not mind us if we forget or make mistakes; our Lord, do not place a burden upon us as You have placed upon those before us; our Lord, do not place upon us what we cannot bear; pardon us, and forgive us, and have mercy on us; You are our patron, so grant us victory over al-k?fir?na."
l? yukallifu al-lahu nafsan ill? wusah? lah? m? kasabat waalayh? m? aktasabat rabban? l? tu'?khidhn? in nas?n? aw akhTa'n? rabban? wal? taHmil alayn? iSran kam? Hamaltahu al? alladh?na min qablin? rabban? wal? tuHammiln? m? l? T?qata lan? bihi waafu ann? waagfir lan? waarHamn? anta mawl?n? faanSurn? `al? al-qawmi al-k?fir?na

God will not burden those whom he didn't give empathy with tests consisting of empathy. Or self-awareness if that is what they're lacking.
I am strongly of the opinion that we are all responsible for ourselves, each of us has an individual "burden?".

[Man_of_Faith]

Animals are soulless on an individual plane. They have no identity and cannot be persons hence, something which is hard even for most humans.

Animals can "think", but cannot achieve abstract thoughts and the thinking is autonomous and given by the instinct and its resultant desires (drive) to accomplish something. It can hence not adapt its will, it lacks abstract will independent from the instinct and is thus a pure slave to the "Flesh", something which is true also for a multitude of humans who can be very weak in self-realization.

The 'Homo Sapiens' animal is a more advanced animal (primate) than other animals and on a bodily level it does process information more efficiently than other animals and hence even with a primitive mind it will appear more sophisticated than them. It is the Spirit of God that gives it its edge of abstract thinking. It is also more versatile than other humans in the design, apparently designed to work with tools and the kind of living it has. Yet the body is indeed an animal despite its edge and it will entice the "user/controller" to indulge in its primitive desires (mating, scavenging, hoarding, social status acquisition etc), desires that makes him/her like a slave.

This is why I wrote animals are soulless but even humans are soulless who have not yet reached near completion of their growth of their Spirit potential. They are not worthless or anything, but for a developed being they are quite dull, predictable and unenlightening to socialize with without intending to be arrogant.

Understanding this will come when you realize how animalistic people actually are around you and it may be initially feel a bit tragic.

Be well
Amenuel

[Bender]

Animals have been theorized to have self-awareness. The main difference between animals and humans is that they lack language.

Hi,

Don't they have their own language?

This means that without certain words, our ability to think about concepts would not exists.
Example the language Piraha has no words for colors or numbers.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDM8G5tuHF8

They literally can not count. Take 10 pencils show it to them. Make them throw the pencils into a box and take every pencil one after another out of the box and they won't realize that after the 10th one the box is empty.

RED I do not believe this.
Having no numbers does not mean they can not count.
If one of them has 10 apples then I am very sure he/she will notice if you steal one.
You can test it with little children who do not know numbers yet.

I find it ironic that some animals who fail at the SRTest succeed in Empathy tests. So that means what? They do not recognize their own individuality but are capable of comprehending others individuality?
Animals interact with one another, some animals build societies just like humans do. Such as for example pinguins.
Pinguins even have marriage! and another thing that pinguins do is prostitution https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAgAim926s0
Dogs who failed at the SRT, are shown to mourn alongside many other animals over the death of beloved ones. https//www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/200910/grief-in-animals-its-arrogant-think-were-the-only-animals-who-mourn

red Translating the behavior of animals to our human standards is simply nonsense.
We humans kill animals and then we eat them. So according to herbivores we are murders.

[Jafar]

Animals, especially our closest cousin among the Big Apes (Orangutan, Chimps, Gorilla) does have a complex emotion and self- consciousness..

Observe these (touching) experiments, by teaching them "sign language", we finally understand what's going on inside their thought..
And it ain't much difference with what's going on inside our own thought.. ("I want Ice Cream", "I'm bored.. Let's take a roundabout in the city" etc..)

Chantek, The Orangutan who went to college..
https//youtu.be/oDiu7JX-Ess

Koko, the "talking" Gorilla
https//youtu.be/SNuZ4OE6vCk

Unfortunately, no similar experiment has been done with Dolphin or Whales..
Yet their behavior shows a high level of social intelligence.. and empathy..
https//youtu.be/lRwWfYLKFw0

[Study]

Hi

Hi

Don't they have their own language?

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_language
They don't have an arbitrary language like we humans do.
Every single word above this sentence is arbitrary, except for maybe "hi". Many animals do have a language system but as explained before with de saussure's "sign" theory, these languages do not result into what's necessary to develop (simple) philosophical ideas.

RED I do not believe this.
Having no numbers does not mean they can not count.
If one of them has 10 apples then I am very sure he/she will notice if you steal one.
You can test it with little children who do not know numbers yet.

Actually, this was something a professor of mine told me, I didn't believe it at first neither. However it is true.
https//www.newscientist.com/article/dn6303-language-may-shape-human-thought/

Language shapes thought.
They don't have the concept of quantity.

"For one, two and three objects, members of the tribe consistently matched Gordon?s pile correctly. But for four and five and up to ten, they could only match it approximately, deviating more from the correct number as the row got longer.

The Pirah? also failed to remember whether a box they had been shown seconds ago had four or five fish drawn on the top. When Gordon?s colleagues tapped on the floor three times, the Pirah? were able to imitate this precisely, but failed to mimic strings of four or five taps."

red Translating the behavior of animals to our human standards is simply nonsense.
We humans kill animals and then we eat them. So according to herbivores we are murders.

Pinguins are monogamous animals, they live in relationships like humans.
And they do have prostitution.
Animal prostitution is what it's called. https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_among_animals
Many animals have behavior similar to humans, we are social animals.

Many herbivores are murderers themselves. The hippopoptamus alongside other herbivores would destroy you
And afterwards they'll just leave your corpse and feel no remorse.

@Man in Faith, I'll answer you later.

[Bender]

Hi
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_language
They don't have an arbitrary language like we humans do.
Every single word above this sentence is arbitrary, except for maybe "hi". Many animals do have a language system but as explained before with de saussure's "sign" theory, these languages do not result into what's necessary to develop (simple) philosophical ideas.

Hi,

How do you/they know?
Such studies only give a projection of how we see them, to our human standards, and not who they really are.

Actually, this was something a professor of mine told me, I didn't believe it at first neither. However it is true.
https//www.newscientist.com/article/dn6303-language-may-shape-human-thought/

Language shapes thought.
They don't have the concept of quantity.

"For one, two and three objects, members of the tribe consistently matched Gordon?s pile correctly. But for four and five and up to ten, they could only match it approximately, deviating more from the correct number as the row got longer.

So the conclusion was because they have no numbers?
I find it hard to believe that this is the reason.

The Pirah? also failed to remember whether a box they had been shown seconds ago had four or five fish drawn on the top. When Gordon?s colleagues tapped on the floor three times, the Pirah? were able to imitate this precisely, but failed to mimic strings of four or five taps."

Has it nothing to do with their memory?

Pinguins are monogamous animals, they live in relationships like humans.
And they do have prostitution.
Animal prostitution is what it's called. https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_among_animals
Many animals have behavior similar to humans, we are social animals.

Like I said that is how we translate their behavior to our human standards, maybe they have different standards, I mean we are not penguins.

Many herbivores are murderers themselves. The hippopoptamus alongside other herbivores would destroy you D
And afterwards they'll just leave your corpse and feel no remorse.

ok herbivores who do not kill. My rabbit sees me every day eating meat and sometimes I have rabbit for dinner, so am I murderer now?

[Man_of_Faith]

Jafar,

They still cannot be persons, they do not have that kind of intelligence, and it is what makes the Homo Sapiens different as it contains a superior Spirit giving them sort of a soul with depth.

I hold nothing against animals at all and I used to have a cat, but they are still part of the world's "automation ", the world combined soul. We can be part of our animals, but it is wise to use our superiority for our personal development.

Be well
Amenuel

[huruf]

Jafar,

They still cannot be persons, they do not have that kind of intelligence, and it is what makes the Homo Sapiens different as it contains a superior Spirit giving them sort of a soul with depth.

I hold nothing against animals at all and I used to have a cat, but they are still part of the world's "automation ", the world combined soul. We can be part of our animals, but it is wise to use our superiority for our personal development.

Be well
Amenuel

Animals are lessons for us. Each animal is a teacher of something for us. I do not care whether they are automated ?more than us? or preprogrammed or whether they do it with the minds or their hormones... The result is a wonder. You may say that it is not their merit because they canot help it. ?Is it anything our merit, of us? Aren't we getting in a realm beyond our capacity.

Getting back to animals and the most popular one -with a reason- dogs. Can you match their trust, their unflinching trust in what is to come,in their destiny, their master, their instincts or whatever is the container produces that trust. If we could have just a little of that for God, for our destiny, for our being, for our meaning...

Long live automation, which gives such fantastic teachers, such trusting satisfied creatures.

Salaam

[Jafar]

Jafar,

They still cannot be persons, they do not have that kind of intelligence, and it is what makes the Homo Sapiens different as it contains a superior Spirit giving them sort of a soul with depth.

Please define

• "That kind of intelligence"
• "Soul with Depth"

Chantek numerous times outwitted the Human security guard who tried to contained him in his compound...
Every new stuff that they throw, he always found a flaw and managed to escape..
Talk about "creativity"..

Chantek is aware of himself and it's surrounding...
Chantek shows empathy, including empathy to other species (read Human), something which some human definitely and obviously lacking..
Chantek feel sad, lonely, bored and pain...

I hold nothing against animals at all and I used to have a cat, but they are still part of the world's "automation ", the world combined soul. We can be part of our animals, but it is wise to use our superiority for our personal development.

Define "Soul" and then we can discuss more..
Otherwise... we are beating around the bush...

Does Orangutan + Gorilla "self conscious"? the answer is definitely YES..
Does Orangutan + Gorilla "feel the variety of emotion that human feel"? the answer is definitely YES..
Does Orangutan + Gorilla "have complex thought, many ways similar to human and can communicate their thought properly" ? the answer is definitely YES
Does Orangutan + Gorilla "have the ability to formulate speeches? thus communicating through exchange of audio signals"? the answer is NO, and that's why they're being teached Sign language..

A remark from history..
When the european landed in American continent.. they see the american natives as "unhuman" and "soul less" thus justify their massacre.
The church issued a formal decree on that matter...
One among the contributing factor was the European cannot understand the language of the americans... thus cannot communicate properly with them..
It's very hard for them to say "Show me the way to your gold stashes.."

[imrankhawaja]

animals play very important part in our lives.. and its necessary..

on other words living things and non living things of this planet are in service of human beings.

you cannot make horse run forcefullly for you , its the perfection of creator he programmed the horse in such a way that he become faithfull and travel along you.

dogs are very loyal to their masters they are ready to give their life for the sake of two meals a day. some dogs are very powerful than human in strength ,, what if they dnt obey ,, you cant make them forcefully obey you ,,

we trained even lions the king of jungle in our fingers when we say they are best trained..(.in circus)

monkeys and apes have some intelligence as well as soon you hit them they will hit you back,,, they can learn to ride a bicysle same like humans kids do,,

the trees , the clouds , the sun and moon , the heavens and earth all are in the service of human kind ,, that what our test is how we deal with them.. we are caretaker of this planet one need to understand this thing.

in the case of animal you cant even kill and eat any animal unless it sacrifce in the name of Allah
so thinking them programmed machines and behaving with them robots is quite unjust with the creation of lord we should tke care of these things of this plantes ,, and these are righteous ,, the people who break things are misuuse things of this planet are transgressors

[HP_TECH]

animals play very important part in our lives.. and its necessary..

on other words living things and non living things of this planet are in service of human beings.

you cannot make horse run forcefullly for you , its the perfection of creator he programmed the horse in such a way that he become faithfull and travel along you.

dogs are very loyal to their masters they are ready to give their life for the sake of two meals a day. some dogs are very powerful than human in strength ,, what if they dnt obey ,, you cant make them forcefully obey you ,,

we trained even lions the king of jungle in our fingers when we say they are best trained..(.in circus)

monkeys and apes have some intelligence as well as soon you hit them they will hit you back,,, they can learn to ride a bicysle same like humans kids do,,

the trees , the clouds , the sun and moon , the heavens and earth all are in the service of human kind ,, that what our test is how we deal with them.. we are caretaker of this planet one need to understand this thing.

in the case of animal you cant even kill and eat any animal unless it sacrifce in the name of Allah
so thinking them programmed machines and behaving with them robots is quite unjust with the creation of lord we should tke care of these things of this plantes ,, and these are righteous ,, the people who break things are misuuse things of this planet are transgressors

I like this analogy.

When I first converted I heard the story of Solomon and how he could communicate with animals, and I wished in my heart that I could at least understand that Sign and experience it. I always loved animals growing up and even want to become a vet. I was overjoyed that a prophet could understand and communicate with animals. So once I retreated to the shade of a tree on bench near the library on my campus and I was playing a Quran recitation when I spotted a squirrel suddenly approaching. So I called a squirrel over, "Come my friend, are you also a believer?" to my surprise it came to me, it sat on my lap, slept against my leg, then rubbed its head and nose against my arm, it wasn't hungry I had no food but it stayed there with me for a while, it even laid down belly up against me and my back while I was reading Quran. (I switched to reading because people were starting to show up). People were coming out of my campus library in shock, people were asking to take pictures and wanted to know if it was my pet. It was a wonderful Sign from Allah.

Animals are not just robots and machines.

Think about the ant and the hoopoe in the Quran Amenuel

[imrankhawaja]

I like this analogy.

When I first converted I heard the story of Solomon and how he could communicate with animals, and I wished in my heart that I could at least understand that Sign and experience it. I always loved animals growing up and even want to become a vet. I was overjoyed that a prophet could understand and communicate with animals. So once I retreated to the shade of a tree on bench near the library on my campus and I was playing a Quran recitation when I spotted a squirrel suddenly approaching. So I called a squirrel over, "Come my friend, are you also a believer?" to my surprise it came to me, it sat on my lap, slept against my leg, then rubbed its head and nose against my arm, it wasn't hungry I had no food but it stayed there with me for a while, it even laid down belly up against me and my back while I was reading Quran. (I switched to reading because people were starting to show up). People were coming out of my campus library in shock, people were asking to take pictures and wanted to know if it was my pet. It was a wonderful Sign from Allah.

Animals are not just robots and machines.

hmm its intresting,, i also used to release the birds in my country ages ago . i buy those birds from my pocket money and let them fly in the air you cant imagine most of the time the birds stop and look at me while making their final fly to hide them in sky... i m also against of keeping birds in cage .. sometimes i saw people who cutt the wings of bird to make them unfly i wonder on their cruelty .. but for my part i also feel love for animals.

yeh birds animal mountains trees everything believes and subject to the command of lord ..

notice while sunrise and sun set u will encounter different phenomenon of birds flight with sounds

[HP_TECH]

hmm its intresting,, i also used to release the birds in my country ages ago . i buy those birds from my pocket money and let them fly in the air you cant imagine most of the time the birds stop and look at me while making their final fly to hide them in sky... i m also against of keeping birds in cage .. sometimes i saw people who cutt the wings of bird to make them unfly i wonder on their cruelty .. but for my part i also feel love for animals.

yeh birds animal mountains trees everything believes and subject to the command of lord ..

notice while sunrise and sun set u will encounter different phenomenon of birds flight with sounds

Exactly I do not rely solely on time-keeping to tell if its dawn or if sunset is approaching, I also listen for the birds, they never fail to sing and flutter around sunrise and sunset, which is really convenient during poor atmospheric conditions.

[Man_of_Faith]

It is not unjust to call animals robots, they will never become conscious persons and they will always follow their instinct with no free will to resist. This is because they have no individual soul or self, they are not self-aware and do not exist on an individual plane. They can learn, instinctively gain trust and many features, but that does not make them individuals. When you tame an animal you still play with their instincts as you feed it in reward for obedience or you play with a dog's pack instinct which is based on hierarchy so you become its master/leader. It does not have its unique identity and is not a soul. It cannot grow its spirit and become anything. It has no abstract thinking or higher level of consciousness.

And that is exactly the same as many humans on Earth, they are also so shallow spiritually that they do not truly exist as a self, even if they have the potential opposite to animals of becoming a true person, one that has character.

Who spoke of mountains obedient? Rock is not even a living material in its condition although decomposed material may eventually become rock.

Please get out of your little bubble of superstition and think logically.

Be well
Amenuel

[HP_TECH]

It is not unjust to call animals robots, they will never become conscious persons and they will always follow their instinct with no free will to resist. This is because they have no individual soul or self, they are not self-aware and do not exist on an individual plane. They can learn, instinctively gain trust and many features, but that does not make them individuals. When you tame an animal you still play with their instincts as you feed it in reward for obedience or you play with a dog's pack instinct which is based on hierarchy so you become its master/leader. It does not have its unique identity and is not a soul. It cannot grow its spirit and become anything. It has no abstract thinking or higher level of consciousness.

And that is exactly the same as many humans on Earth, they are also so shallow spiritually that they do not truly exist as a self, even if they have the potential opposite to animals of becoming a true person, one that has character.

Who spoke of mountains obedient? Rock is not even a living material in its condition although decomposed material may eventually become rock.

Please get out of your little bubble of superstition and think logically.

Be well
Amenuel

I would not call it superstition Amenuel, he was just referring to

3372 Indeed, We offered the Trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to bear it and they feared from it; but bore it the man. Indeed, he was unjust ignorant.

Have you come across it in your Reading?

Besides the above there is more to this topic than meets the eye. I do not want to clash with you but truly see your position. You are arguing from knowledge and understanding outside of Quran.

What is your argument for these verses if your understanding is that animals have no individuality?

2717 And were gathered for Sulaiman his hosts of jinn and the men and the birds, and they (were) set in rows.
2718 Until, when they came to (the) valley (of) the ants, said an ant, "O ants! Enter your dwellings lest not crush you Sulaiman and his hosts while they (do) not perceive."
2719 So he smiled - laughing at her speech and said, "My Lord! Grant me (the) power that I may thank You (for) Your Favor which You have bestowed on me and on my parents and that I may do righteous (deeds), that will please You. And admit me by Your Mercy among Your slaves righteous."
2720 And he inspected the birds and said, "Why not I see the hoopoe or is he from the absent?
2721 I will surely punish him (with) a punishment severe or I will surely slaughter him unless he brings me a reason clear."
2722 So he stayed not long, and he said, "I have encompassed that which not you have encompassed it, and I have come to you from Saba with news certain.
2723 Indeed, I found a woman ruling them and she has been given of every thing and for her (is) a throne great.
2724 And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of Allah, and has made fair-seeming to them the Shaitaan their deeds, and averted them from the Way, so they (are) not guided,
2725 That not they prostrate to Allah, the One Who brings forth the hidden in the heavens and the earth and knows what you conceal and what you declare,
2726 Allah (there is) no god but He, (the) Lord (of) the Throne the Great."

Look at these animals speaking with individuality, especially the hoopoe.
Why punish an animal who does not have individuality and only follows its instinct? Was it the hoopoe's instinct that led it to risk missing attendance to explore neighboring lands and take note of all sorts of observations? It seems more like an individualist trait.

What do you think of this?

[Jafar]

It is not unjust to call animals robots, they will never become conscious persons and they will always follow their instinct with no free will to resist. This is because they have no individual soul or self, they are not self-aware and do not exist on an individual plane.

Chantek the orangutan and koko the gorilla is self aware... proven...
See the video on my posting above..

This field has been thoroughly studied.. here's the list of self aware species and the test methodology
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

And how about you Man Of Faith, the human, are you self aware?
Do you have any soul?

They can learn, instinctively gain trust and many features, but that does not make them individuals. When you tame an animal you still play with their instincts as you feed it in reward for obedience or you play with a dog's pack instinct which is based on hierarchy so you become its master/leader. It does not have its unique identity and is not a soul. It cannot grow its spirit and become anything. It has no abstract thinking or higher level of consciousness.

And so does human...
They can be easily indoctrinated to do anything (including suicide and massive killing of fellow species) for the reward of 72 virgins on their afterlife..
The ultimate reward for obedience to their leader / deity.
How can that be any different?

Oh wait a minute.. it seems.. the human is much lesser than OrangUtan or even Rats..

http//www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/05/rats-forsake-chocolate-save-drowning-companion

"the team put the rodents to the ultimate test, pitting chocolate against altruism. In this experiment, rats on the dry platform had to choose between two doors, one that allowed their drowned companion to escape from the pool and another that provided access to a tasty chocolate treat. The rodents chose to help their companions before seeking the snack 80% of the time, showing that the urge to help a fellow rat was stronger than desire for food"

The documentary
http//www.slate.com/articles/video/video/2015/05/animal_empathy_testing_rats_with_water_and_chocolate_video.html

There are hundreds of similar "experiment" which proves empathy in animal.. feel free to google it yourselves..

And that is exactly the same as many humans on Earth, they are also so shallow spiritually that they do not truly exist as a self, even if they have the potential opposite to animals of becoming a true person, one that has character.

Please don't equate rats or orangutan to low animal named human..
I mean those low life human who manipulate others to do mass killing or perform mass killing themselves...
Equating those human scums to rats or orangutan is an insult to ratnity and orangutanity...

Please get out of your little bubble of superstition and think logically.

Agree...
Observe the evidence.. use reason and make a clear judgement..

[Man_of_Faith]

And how about you Man Of Faith, the human, are you self aware?
Do you have any soul?

I would personally say that. I know you are only striving to destabilize me though from some kind of thought-to-be witted sarcasm.

The other primates, for example, can learn and they may have human-like societal habits, and much of that is because the style of instincts is shared between primates (the Homo Sapiens body is a primate). They do equal, depending on how you see it (if considered your below quote), the instinctive living of a human with little to no spiritual development who will also behave according to their societal instincts and other motivations. It is just this kind of part an ascended PERSON is supposed to get away from to stop being like an animal and instead like their 'Foundation-Giver'.

All those people you later wrote about, they are victims of instincts which control them rather than logic and reason and the combination of animal and superior spirit makes them highly dangerous. We are at best when we separate ourselves from the primate's call. But your orangutan, gorilla, chimpanzee or whatever you mentioned, they are ONLY animals, they will not become a person. They may be the most advanced primates besides Homo Sapiens, but that is it, and that is not arrogance but pure logical reasoning. As long as Rabb has not planted a "seed" within something it is not going to develop beyond the Spatial Intelligence. That being said, if Rabb now planted a "seed" to change the direction, a orangutan could suddenly begin to develop on a spiritual level too at a fast rate, and then they would need to also master their bodily influence like Homo Sapiens and according to me it would not be any easier.

Again I find your writing above a bit uncalled for, unnecessarily rude. You can see on my reasoning and see the answer without even asking.

And so does human...
They can be easily indoctrinated to do anything (including suicide and massive killing of fellow species) for the reward of 72 virgins on their afterlife..
The ultimate reward for obedience to their leader / deity.
How can that be any different?

You are not even reading and processing my posts so I will not give you any answer I already gave you. But I will tell you one thing, and that is the fact these humans are like primates and their spirit is undeveloped and they could be compared with these animals in discussion.

However those who become persons for real are different and advanced.

You still have to face it that animals are not advanced and they cannot be counted as PERSONS, they do not have that individuality, or could you be compared with a gorilla in terms of (abstract) intellect (soul depth) in your opinion? Maybe you two could have a barbecue, play some chess or perhaps you will be beaten by the gorilla at that? Come on, you cannot compare your Spirit potential with an animal? You can only compare an animal with a very bodily human, one that has succumbed to their own beast inside and these are tragic victims of themselves and their idolization of a divine phenomenon, which phenomenon is manifest in those 'Who Are' and cannot be found elsewhere. They themselves show God in them, if They truly Are (i.e. exist), i.e. Allehem . It has often been said that you find God from within yourself, and that is due to who you were made to be, in(side of) God's "image". You have more potential than an animal, come on. Those you mentioned in the quote is how it goes when you combine a superior Spirit in a primate body which has no control over its instincts when it can think abstractly, it only makes my argumentation stronger.

Even by giving you these replies I also made the answer evident from your first inquiry (of your quotes).

Please don't equate rats or orangutan to low animal named human..
I mean those low life human who manipulate others to do mass killing or perform mass killing themselves...
Equating those human scums to rats or orangutan is an insult to ratnity and orangutanity...

I will still insist to do so, that poor Homo Sapiens body which has an evil spirit possession in it, i.e. that intruding spirit in it. The body is innocent and could be as any animal including that gorilla you love. At least the gorilla will follow their instincts to 100% and never invent a nuclear bomb as it does not think in that direction (as it has no individuality and is no person), even if the gorilla may kill another gorilla or other animal by instinct (just like a human might) it will not commit genocide.

But even then I pity those human seeds of the Father who succumbed to the deception of the world and messed up completely. They become as that body of theirs and the result is horrible given their versatile mind even within a very narrow scope.

Agree...
Observe the evidence.. use reason and make a clear judgement..

Exactly. Analyze all sources of information and reflect upon if.

Be well
Amenuel

[Man_of_Faith]

HP_TECH,

You can disqualify that rendition by logic alone. You cannot offer something to which has no life whatsoever but is dead matter because it will not agree or disagree because it cannot offer a response. It speaks for itself that the translation "sucks", as they use to say. It is something you cling unto while you call yourself intellectual and educated, is that not embarrassing to you?

[HP_TECH]

HP_TECH,

You can disqualify that rendition by logic alone. You cannot offer something to which has no life whatsoever but is dead matter because it will not agree or disagree because it cannot offer a response. It speaks for itself that the translation "sucks", as they use to say. It is something you cling unto while you call yourself intellectual and educated, is that not embarrassing to you?

I have never called myself those things and I have no reason to feel embarrassed.

I see that you changed focus from the question to address translation issues.

Is it only you, who has the key to the correct translation?

[Jafar]

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_language
They don't have an arbitrary language like we humans do.

Correct, they don't really communicate through exchange of complex audio signals..
Yet that doesn't mean that they don't communicate at all or they don't have complex thought (like human do) within their mind..

Human is a class of animal who are hasten to judge and arrogant.. always like to think himself as superior to others..

Every single word above this sentence is arbitrary, except for maybe "hi". Many animals do have a language system but as explained before with de saussure's "sign" theory, these languages do not result into what's necessary to develop (simple) philosophical ideas.

The Chantek experiment (link provided in my post above) is an interesting insight to the mind of Orangutan..

For many generation, human didn't developed any philosophical ideas either..
They're just too busy seeking out food to survive.. 80% of their awake time were spent on hunting and gathering..
The invention of agriculture changed that... finally human can allocate more time thinking about 'other than food'..

And it's applicable to all animals.. the same thing happened to Chantek when he got all of the food fulfilled without any constant need of daily foraging..

Actually, this was something a professor of mine told me, I didn't believe it at first neither. However it is true.
https//www.newscientist.com/article/dn6303-language-may-shape-human-thought/

Language shapes thought.
They don't have the concept of quantity

It happened vice versa.. language is the product of human thought.. and language influence / shape the human thought..
What will human do when there wasn't any word / expression yet to express his mind? He invented a new word or expression.. and that's how the language (thus also human mind) evolves...

Animal prostitution is what it's called. https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_among_animals
Many animals have behavior similar to humans, we are social animals.

Chimps are indeed human closest cousin..
The same with human, they also aggressive, do collective and coordinate hunting (yes they ate meat too), and often involved in a 'gang war' among themselves..