How We Could Eradicate And Fight The Religious Racism & Hate???
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slavery is not banned in the Qur'an
Slavery is not banned in today's world either. It just goes by different names like workers, servants, employees, etc. In the government especially, it is too common. Think about soldiers. Oh, and we have here something called drafting. The civilian males can be put into jail for dishonoring it.
inheritance for male-female is not just
In my view, the way the law is interpreted is wrong because God is logical. I have shown lots of problems in how this is not a justified law..like what if the girls in the family are more educated and the son is an alcoholic, gambler, etc.
the fact that women must "obey" their husbands
I haven't seen a verse on that. There is only a verse on homemakers who are told to not abuse the time when husbands are not at home.
1400 years ago, God could not have told those Arabs that they should have "democracy", male-female equality etc.
1400 years ago, God told them to apply democracy which the Arabs did for awhile. But then the Persians changed it into dictatorship while making sure to prevent people from understanding the Quran on their own.
because their socio-cultural-economic situation was entirely different to ours.
One can improve socio-cultural economic by using Quranic laws. The Golden age was the example. Now those same laws changed the west into a civilized society.
You could read some of Fazlur Rahman's works, there are many other Islamic "scholars" who say what I'm saying, it's nothing new. In English this is called "historicity", I believe.
Don't give into appeal to human authority. Read and try to understand the Quran yourself. Pay more attention to instructions about psychological change (example verse 343) and connecting with God mentally. The verses about them work like magic. The more you will reflect on some out of the ordinary results coming from nowhere the more you will see power in Quran and understand the meaning of God being merciful.
Discuss what you don't understand and never form a conclusion from peer pressure. If something seems wrong then it is wrong. It is always possible for 100 people to agree to a wrong meaning while 1 which can be you may have the right one. Hold onto individualism as strong as possible and use the gift called reasoning.
Enjoy your journey bro peace
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Peace Reel,
First, please know that I know very well that you mean well and that you are sincere. I have absolutely no doubt about that
Believe me, there are many morally inconsistent rules and laws in the Qur'an. We should not try to delude ourselves and try and change their clear meanings. There is also wife beating in the Qur'an, to claim that it actually doesn't say "beat" is wrong. For 1300 years every single Islamic scholar, including the "sahaba" have understood the word as "beat". Even the prophet has given permission to beat your wife in his "farewell speech". Because that was the culture back then.
You can check surah 4 about wives having to obey their husbands, it's undeniable and very clear. Nobody until about 100 years ago denied this fact. Again, this is an example of a desperate modern-day attempt to "clear" the Qur'an of wrong or inconsistent teachings. Since it's the book of God, there can be nothing in it that is morally inconsistent or wrong, right? Wrong, the Qur'an is not independent from Arab culture or from the level of understanding of those Arabs of 1400 years ago in that particular region. This is impossible....
There are so many other things, but I will give just one other example of moral inconsistency. In the Qur'an you are encouraged to "forgive" a murderer, it is considered better than punishment of the murderer. You will be rewarded for it. However, that same "mercy" shown to murderers is not shown to adulterers, or to those who have sex outside marriage. On the contrary, it says something like; "be harsh to them, don't show mercy". Any thinking human being would ask the following question; how is having sex outside marriage so much more criminal than murdering an innnocent human being? Why not also forgive those who have sex outside marriage then?
Interestingly, even today, girls having sex outside marriage in Turkey's eastern provinces are sometimes killed. Because for such people, having sex outside marriage (for girls of course, not for men) is a far bigger and far more "unforgivable" crime than murder. In fact, it's the biggest crime a girl could ever commit in this whole world. That's why they have no problem killing their own daughter or some female family member...
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Slavery is not banned in today's world either. It just goes by different names like workers, servants, employees, etc. In the government especially, it is too common. Think about soldiers. Oh, and we have here something called drafting. The civilian males can be put into jail for dishonoring it.
Totally different..
Slave = Human owned as fixed asset by another human.
Just like Cattle, can be sold, worked against their own will, beaten to death, raped, slaughtered by it's owner. And if the slave gave birth to a child, the child is automatically a slave as well. 100% owned by it's owner.Workers / employee
(I excluded servant as servant is merely a function performed by the employee)
Can leave / resign from their employment contract, can reject any offered employment contract, have full civil rights as the employer, if beaten / raped / murdered by the employer, the employer can be punished with the same punishment if the employee performed the same deed to the employer.
Have rights to organize in a union, minimum salary, maximum work hours, leave / holiday rights etc..1400 years ago, God told them to apply democracy which the Arabs did for awhile. But then the Persians changed it into dictatorship while making sure to prevent people from understanding the Quran on their own.
There's no 'democracy' or instruction to elect your leader / government in the Quran. And God supposedly doesn't consult with the people as well on "His choice of messenger that the people must obey".
Please don't blame the Persian, the system goes back to Monarchy when Muawiyah took power. And he's definitely ain't a Persian.. By the the time he slaughtered his competitor and his family member thus claim the title as "Caliphate", Persia was already a conquered province within the Caliphate and the voice of Persian doesn't matter as they're merely either 2nd class citizens or a slave.
One can improve socio-cultural economic by using Quranic laws. The Golden age was the example. Now those same laws changed the west into a civilized society.
One can improve socio-cultural economic of any society if justice prevails within the society and the society is open minded. The so-called "Golden Age" of Islam Caliphate in Baghdad possess those characteristics, and they slowly decline as the fanatical religious group gradually took power and put the entire society towards endless internal conflict over petty matters, close minded and backwardness before meeting it's ultimate fate in the hands of the invading Mongols.
The same pattern above can also be detected on the decline of the Israelite kingdom (post Solomon era) or any other nation for that matter.
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Hello Recluse,
There is a third possibility too, Quran could be a severely misinterpreted innocent text which interpretation was generated by ignorant clerics and scholars. You could read about the fate of Quran on my own forum which link is in the bottom of my posts. My rendition of chapter 36 reveals a great deal.
I understand that the above case sounds unbelievable, but somehow after due extensive research I strongly argue this is the case. One of the early hints was because other definitions more interesting were hidden inside of ancient Classical Arabic lexicon and when used together with studied Arabic linguistics which revealed another grammar system than what is used by people it showed that Quran is actually not at all similar to the sectarian interpretation.
It happened that Quran instead confirms what Jesus in the Biblical Gospels teach about and the religious philosophy of Buddhism and Hinduism. Suddenly God/Rabb is a symbiotic phenomenon whose Oneness, unity (ahad), is expressed through one's Being (Allah), and each person takes part in that.
I had absolutely no idea that Quran would delve into this so it was surely touching to me when I discovered it.
The ancient clerics and scholars literally fabricated what Quran was to say according to themselves. Salat is an utterly fabricated term when it means prayer or contact prayer and it is taken completely out of context. They just took terms from right to left and cooked something up. I call that bold of them but that is how it went. The result was a book which someone had just placed a meaning on top of the real one.
Be well
Amenuel -
Totally different..
Slave = Human owned as fixed asset by another human.
This classic form of slavery still exists in countries like India and Bangladesh. In the latter, it will break your heart to see kids being given for housekeeping work. Some are as young as 8 '(. They are the "assets" of their parents being given for making money '(. They have no freedom. Made to sleep on the floor '(. I must add that here in US and some European countries another form slavery exists and that's for sex. Girls as young as 12 and 13 are sold like objects. There is a youtube video on this.
But the overall definition of slavery is a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them. http//dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/slave
If you get into a contract you become a slave. But since the term has a negative history it is no more used. Your skills will be interpreted as intangible assets of the company. If you become 18 here in US you will be required to register with the government for drafting. If you don't respond to their call during the war you will be taken to jail.Can leave / resign from their employment contract, can reject any offered employment contract, have full civil rights as the employer, if beaten / raped / murdered by the employer, the employer can be punished with the same punishment if the employee performed the same deed to the employer.
Have rights to organize in a union, minimum salary, maximum work hours, leave / holiday rights etc..Yeah, they just are here to improve the condition and are not real for plenty of countries. That said, one cannot easily resign from being a soldier. Hence, I see it as the dumbest thing to go for especially here in the US. Government doesn't care about the affected vets that much. Eventually, they learn that the wars are just "april fool's day pranks", but they can't get out of them. By the way, our unions are useless. Our working hours are jokes. Most contractors don't get paid during holidays.Wow, those lines just rhymed P.
There's no 'democracy' or instruction to elect your leader / government in the Quran. And God supposedly doesn't consult with the people as well on "His choice of messenger that the people must obey".
There is no real constitutions in the Quran for running a country. Basics are there which are very much part of our constitutions and are working well. God gave us the choice to obey. The ones the messengers fought were the cruelest disbelievers who tried to hurt them. We have verses where the disbelievers who rejected the message without doing an attack were told to be left alone.
Please don't blame the Persian, the system goes back to Monarchy when Muawiyah took power. And he's definitely ain't a Persian.. By the the time he slaughtered his competitor and his family member thus claim the title as "Caliphate",
Yeah, I know about that..Muawiyah and his opponent, both were equally responsible.Hence, I don't accept their so called "written" hadiths. But at least they didn't force thousands of gossips and yellow journalism down the throats of Muslims like Ibn Hanbal, Shafi,Bukhari, Muslim and their worshipers. It truly got worse in Iraq and Nishapur. Hence the line
"Iraq has always been the central place for the fabrication business."Ibn Katheer al-Bidaya wal-Nihaya
Persia was already a conquered province within the Caliphate and the voice of Persian doesn't matter as they're merely either 2nd class citizens or a slave.
That was the main problem and that's why, I do not have any bitterness towards those Persians. They suffered a lot. Many were forced into Islam and Arabization. They had good reasons to take revenge. I call this karma for the Caliphate. Majority of the aggressive promoters of hadiths were persian.
One can improve socio-cultural economic of any society if justice prevails within the society and the society is open minded. The so-called "Golden Age" of Islam Caliphate in Baghdad possess those characteristics, and they slowly decline as the fanatical religious group gradually took power and put the entire society towards endless internal conflict over petty matters, close minded and backwardness before meeting it's ultimate fate in the hands of the invading Mongols.
The same pattern above can also be detected on the decline of the Israelite kingdom (post Solomon era) or any other nation for that matter.
Not just open minded, but also is interested in reasoning. Quran has enough verses on the importance of rationality and curiosity about the world. Things always go wrong when people are taught that by being freeloader one gets the salvation. In my dictionary, freeloader is someone who thinks that just by performing rituals he will get a ticket to heaven.
Peace Reel,
First, please know that I know very well that you mean well and that you are sincere. I have absolutely no doubt about that )
Believe me, there are many morally inconsistent rules and laws in the Qur'an. We should not try to delude ourselves and try and change their clear meanings. There is also wife beating in the Qur'an, to claim that it actually doesn't say "beat" is wrong. For 1300 years every single Islamic scholar, including the "sahaba" have understood the word as "beat". Even the prophet has given permission to beat your wife in his "farewell speech". Because that was the culture back then.
You can check surah 4 about wives having to obey their husbands, it's undeniable and very clear. Nobody until about 100 years ago denied this fact. Again, this is an example of a desperate modern-day attempt to "clear" the Qur'an of wrong or inconsistent teachings. Since it's the book of God, there can be nothing in it that is morally inconsistent or wrong, right? Wrong, the Qur'an is not independent from Arab culture or from the level of understanding of those Arabs of 1400 years ago in that particular region. This is impossible....
There are so many other things, but I will give just one other example of moral inconsistency. In the Qur'an you are encouraged to "forgive" a murderer, it is considered better than punishment of the murderer. You will be rewarded for it. However, that same "mercy" shown to murderers is not shown to adulterers, or to those who have sex outside marriage. On the contrary, it says something like; "be harsh to them, don't show mercy". Any thinking human being would ask the following question; how is having sex outside marriage so much more criminal than murdering an innnocent human being? Why not also forgive those who have sex outside marriage then?
Interestingly, even today, girls having sex outside marriage in Turkey's eastern provinces are sometimes killed. Because for such people, having sex outside marriage (for girls of course, not for men) is a far bigger and far more "unforgivable" crime than murder. In fact, it's the biggest crime a girl could ever commit in this whole world. That's why they have no problem killing their own daughter or some female family member...
I want the best for you brother. That's why I said enjoy your journey. You will find on the way many of the assumptions have up there are the twisted tales of the satan followers. I am still learning a lot. Its the constant education. Can take years, yet we might just die without knowing many things that still seem true to us, but are actually false.
peace -
To me it is crystal clear that it is, Recluse. There are lot of hints.
Amenuel
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Man of Faith,
Why do you think the Qur'an wants us to forgive murderers, but to punish and be harsh to those having sex outside marriage? Also, the hand of a thief must be cut, but not the hand of a murderer? Because according to the Qur'an, it's "better" if the family members of the victims simply "forgive" the murderer. But it's not ok to forgive someone who "fornicates" (has sex outside marriage) or someone who steals. The hand of a thief must be cut. I would much rather prefer to cut a murderer's hand than a thief's hand, not that I support such barbaric medieval punishments. So what do you make of these obvious moral inconsistencies? I'd like to receive answers from others as well please...
Peace
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Man of Faith,
Why do you think the Qur'an wants us to forgive murderers, but to punish and be harsh to those having sex outside marriage? Also, the hand of a thief must be cut, but not the hand of a murderer? Because according to the Qur'an it's "better" if the family members of the victims simply "forgive" the murderer. But it's not ok to forgive someone who "fornicates" (has sex outside marriage) or someone who steals. The hand of a thief must be cut. I would much rather prefer to cut a murderer's hand than a thief's hand, not that I support such barbaric medieval punishments. So what do you make of these obvious moral inconsistencies? I'd like to receive answers from others as well please...
Peace
Peace Recluse,
Can you please post the specific verses that you are referring to?