Ture Islam Resides Somewhere Between Salafi(Shia) and Quranist(JAQ)

parvez_mushtaq

Hi,

As long as their traditions/rituals do not harm others there is nothing foolish about it if they find peace in it.
But if their traditions/rituals are bad/evil then for sure they are fools.

So imo stoning a object because you think it symbolizes the devil not really foolish, ok I admit it's not very smart and there are better things to do but you will not go to hell for stoning a lifeless object.

Yes ,I agree with you Bender

But stoning a human being because it's in your tradition or ritual or whatever, that is foolish and you can bet that hell is waiting for you.

Here i want make few additions
I dont know from where they got this ruling of stoning a adulterer or adulteress
Because ALLAH subhanvatala clearly says in Ayah 415

Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women - bring against them four from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them way.

This Ayah clearly proves that there will be another ruling regarding this issue

And there by the other Ayah is

Verse 242

The woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

Note the brackets to explain this ruling .
There are Ahadiths to which go against their ruling but stick to their ruling over viewing these ayahs

parvez_mushtaq

What telegraphic messages are are referring when i have already explained.

I think you have forgotten our olden days postal telegraphy
people used send only few words to make their thoughts readable to their distant relative .so your messages are few words and not clearly explained

Ok, the verse shows clearly that there is ONLY ONE RAKAAH - . The Standing, Kneeling-Prostration, than getting up from prostration to kneeling position is considered one rakaah.

Let me take that verse again .this time in Arabic
Verse 4102

Let me explain you in detail the underlined part

meaning And when you are among them and lead them in prayer Implies our porphet was the imam and that was a congregational prayer

Meaning let a group of them stand with you ...So one the group is standing with our prophet in congregational prayer

Meaning and let them carry their arms.....So another group was standing with arms ,guarding

Meaning And when they have prostrated Note that "they" it implies our prophet who is the imam is still in the salah and one rakaa was over for our prophet ....Alhamdulilah

Meaning let them be behind you and have the other group come forward which has not prayed ......The first group has finished its one rakhaa and the other group is coming forward to join prayer with our prophet. "behind our prophet" who is the imam implies our prophet is about to make his second rakhaa

Meaning and let them pray with you ......So our prophet prayed two rakaahs were as each group prayed one rakhaa each ....this is obligatory fear salah

This is called the detailed explanation....now it is your turn to tell me how our prophet prayed only one rakah twice with each group .....where are those Arabic words for praying with them twice ....it is very clear groups changes there positions behind our prophet at the end of each rakaah and our prophet whom was the imam was performing two rakaahs

PL...Pl...Pl... don't Christianize our salah

Hizbullah

I think you have forgotten our olden days postal telegraphy
people used send only few words to make their thoughts readable to their distant relative .so your messages are few words and not clearly explained Let me take that verse again .this time in Arabic

I have already explained to the best of my ability, check the quran afterall the it is a TAFSEEL . What further explanation do you need?

Verse 4102

S lets follow your detail explanation

meaning And when you are among them and lead them in prayer Implies our porphet was the imam and that was a congregational prayer

No! its does not implies to the Prophet but the Arab Messenger which this Arabic version of the quran was preached by the Prophet to him.

Meaning let a group of them stand with you ...So one the group is standing with our prophet in congregational prayer

One group standing in a Congregational prayer lead by the Arab Messenger

Meaning and let them carry their arms.....So another group was standing with arms ,guarding

No! thats not what it meant, it means the same group in the 1st Congregational prayer lead by the Messenger with their weapons besides them.

Meaning And when they have prostrated Note that "they" it implies our prophet who is the imam is still in the salah and one rakaa was over for our prophet ....Alhamdulilah

Wrong! "they" refered to the 1st group of people doing the 1st Congrational Prayer with their Messenger. After the prostration, its over for the first group.

Meaning let them be behind you and have the other group come forward which has not prayed ......The first group has finished its one rakhaa and the other group is coming forward to join prayer with our prophet. "behind our prophet" who is the imam implies our prophet is about to make his second rakhaa

Wrong, the prayers already completed for the 1st group and the second group came to carry out the prayers where the Messenger will lead them in the 2nd Congregational prayers. No mentioned of RAKAAH!

Meaning and let them pray with you ......So our prophet prayed two rakaahs were as each group prayed one rakhaa each ....this is obligatory fear salah

So the Messenger will have to conduct 2 Congregational prayers. One so called rakaah for each group. Remember this is in hostile situation. In normal situation, whoever is present will join in the congregation prayers. No need to fear!

This is called the detailed explanation....now it is your turn to tell me how our prophet prayed only one rakah twice with each group .....where are those Arabic words for praying with them twice ....it is very clear groups changes there positions behind our prophet at the end of each rakaah and our prophet whom was the imam was performing two rakaahs.

Where is the Arabic word for Rakaah? The illustration explanation in 04102 shows that the MESSENGER PRAYED ONCE WITH EACH GROUP. Each prayers consisting of 2 position - Standing and Kneeling-Prostrating. The traditional Islamic prayers is such that you

1.Stand

2.Bow show me the highlight word in the Quran. You can never find it pertaining to salat.

Sujood - from standing to prostration - this is UNQURANIC. Nowhere in the Quran gives such instruction
Qu3ud - sit in between the next sujood. This is UNQURANIC. Nowhere in the Quran gives such instruction. Beside the word is not in the Quran.
2nd sujood after Qu3ud - where in the Quran that explain explicitly that there are two sujoods in our daily prayer.

The only explicit explanation about prayers is 04102 and it shows 2 position - Standing and Kneeling-Prostrating. The Arabic is very clear. Quran 2226

There is no conjunction in between kneeling and prostrating because it is considered one position. The Traditional Islamic way of praying is nothing more but conjectures. The Quranic way of prayers base on 04102 is for both peace and hostile situation.

PL...Pl...Pl... don't Christianize our salah

The verses pertaining salat which i have shown you are all from the Quran. Nothing is from the Christian Book. so, Please, Please, Please, dont conjectures. It is not right to implement things that the Quran does not instruct.

Talking about christianity, it was founded in the 4th century CE by a Pagan Greco-Roman emperor. The Last Prophet and the Quran was in the era of the 3rd Century CE. Islam does not plagarise any christians form of worshipping. I dont blame you. The conspirators had already made sure that every Muslim is ignorant regarding history and knowledge of languages. They pull off with their deceptions, making known to the worlds as if the Prophet was an Arab born in the 6th Century in Arabia and that the Quran was written in Arabic, sent down in only one geographical area!
But off course, if you wanna believe in the traditional Islamic BS, be my guest.

peace

parvez_mushtaq

No! its does not implies to the Prophet but the Arab Messenger which this Arabic version of the quran was preached by the Prophet to him.

Ok let me explain you the same things in a different way

-And when (Time verb)

you are (highlighted part suffix second person male singular pronoun).Meaning our prophet and as per you there were two
among them (green suffix third person male plural pronoun ) the whole Jamaat
and you lead (green suffix second person male singular pronoun ) .our prophet
for them (green third person male plural pronoun ) the whole jamaat
the prayer

The exact meaning is "And when your among them and you lead for them (became imam) in the prayer "

can you tell me where are the words that will support you translation ....lol are you cooking your own briyani

Lets take the second part

One group standing in a Congregational prayer lead by the Arab Messenger

then let stand (Green imperfect third person female singular jussive mood verb).here taqum is a verb (meaning they stood for salah) where as in the verse you brought is a noun
a group (green female indefinite nominative noun )
of them (suffix third person male plural pronoun) .so into two groups splits here
with you (suffix second person male singular pronoun ) our prophet

So ..one of the group is standing with our prophet in salah ....Good ..you are correct

Lets take the next ....

No! thats not what it meant, it means the same group in the 1st Congregational prayer lead by the Messenger with their weapons besides them.

and let them take ( green prefix prefixed conjunction conjunction ) clearly state that it is continuation of the of the previous division
their arms.

So one group is standing with our prophet and another guarding with arms
no one bothers about what you mean or what i mean ...are you prophet to induce your own cooked up meaning in the quran ...or is quran is inherited by your ancestors you to so that you can put any meaning that you like

Next...

Wrong! "they" refered to the 1st group of people doing the 1st Congrational Prayer with their Messenger. After the prostration, its over for the first group.

Then when
they have prostrated

MEANING ....THEN WHEN THEY HAVE PROSTRATED ....first rakaa is completed
Again cooking your own briyani ....dont give your own thinking here in the translation of quran .....are is that your reading in between lines !
next ....

Wrong, the prayers already completed for the 1st group and the second group came to carry out the prayers where the Messenger will lead them in the 2nd Congregational prayers. No mentioned of RAKAAH!

then let them be ...(GREENimperfect third person male plural jussive mood verb )
from
behind you
and let come
a group -
other,
not
prayed,
and let them pray
with you

if we make out the meaning from the word to to word translation then it means "then let them be behind you and let the other group not prayed come forward and pray with you "
in other words ....after sujood , let the first group go behind and let the other group join with you for the prayer ..join in the second rakat

The verses pertaining salat which i have shown you are all from the Quran. Nothing is from the Christian Book. so, Please, Please, Please, dont conjectures. It is not right to implement things that the Quran does not instruct.

your translation or your understating of this verse is

No! its does not implies to the Prophet but the Arab Messenger which this Arabic version of the quran was preached by the Prophet to him.
One group standing in a Congregational prayer lead by the Arab Messenger
No! thats not what it meant, it means the same group in the 1st Congregational prayer lead by the Messenger with their weapons besides them.
Wrong! "they" refered to the 1st group of people doing the 1st Congrational Prayer with their Messenger. After the prostration, its over for the first group.
Wrong, the prayers already completed for the 1st group and the second group came to carry out the prayers where the Messenger will lead them in the 2nd Congregational prayers. No mentioned of RAKAAH!

is this is the translation of the verse 4.0102 or
When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee,

even christian missionary people will, laugh at your translation
so dont cook your own curry and quran is not a place for that
Really this was the very bad joke i ever read in recent time ...sorry i cannot laugh now some time later

good_logic

Peace parvez.

If the brother is cooking you a biryani followed by curry, then sit with him and enjoy the meal together like good friends.

After all ,you have been going on with this conversation for a while.

GOD bless you both brothers.
Peace.

Hizbullah

Peace parvez.

If the brother is cooking you a biryani followed by curry, then sit with him and enjoy the meal together like good friends.

After all ,you have been going on with this conversation for a while.

GOD bless you both brothers.
Peace.

And ALLAH bless you gl too

Bender

Exactly , Bender
but i remembered about walking between safa and marwa .how any one can become pious just walking between two hills .then when i incorporated with Verse 15.39
said, "My Lord, because You have put me in error, I will surely make attractive to them on earth, and I will mislead them all

The problem of iblees was disobedience to the Almighty . so when ALLAH subhanavatala said to walk between safa and marwa we should say Sameena Wa Ataana .

Salaam Parvez,

RED We? He did not say that to me.

similarly i cannot ask question about the rituals because this rituals got nothing to do with our prophet

RED I do not understand what you mean with this.

So i left the matter to ALLAH subhanavatal and he guided me in lot of ways in hajj

You just repeated what you said. Lets suppose I am in Mecca to do the hajj. Then I decide to leave the matter to Allah. Then what? I just wait in my hotel room? A lot of people say this, I mean "I left it to Allah" but I never understood what that means. Can you explain how He guided you in hajj when you left the matter to Him.

It is obvious that we don't know how they could have performed salah
but the salah we have is 1400 years old and i prefer to follow it .If it is wrong ,It is up to ALLAH subhanvatal to guide me to the right path

GREEN Sure, there is nothing wrong imo in the 1400 old prayer.

There you are ,Bender
the the word is pronounced maj-reyha and not majreha
this comes in tajweed .if you happen to hear the tilawa of this verse you will notice this .No qhaari will pronounce this word as majreha but he will pronounce it as maj-reyha
this is the oral tradition transmitted down the ages by our ancestors believing that our prophet pronounced it this way
another beauty is that we don't have any hadith to prove this as well (as far as i know) just oral transmission
Yet another proof for our strong oral transmission !

RED Maybe they are all wrong and it should be pronounced as majreha.

Maybe your way of pray is similar to those of 1400 years back, but does it make it the only way to pray?
If I pray in my way will Allah not hear me?
Do we need a special code (=ritual) before Allah listens to us?

Hizbullah

Ok let me explain from the Quranic perspective

-And when (Time verb)

you are (highlighted part suffix second person male singular pronoun)?.Meaning the Arab messenger that was assigned to his people;
IN THEM (green suffix third person male plural pronoun ) ??the whole Jamaah
and you lead (green suffix second person male singular pronoun ) ?.the Arab Messenger AS IMAM
FOR THEM (green third person male plural pronoun ) ??the whole jamaah
the prayer
then let stand (Green imperfect third person female singular jussive mood verb)?.here taqum is a verb (meaning they stood for salah)
A GROUP (green female indefinite nominative noun )
AMONG THEM (suffix third person male plural pronoun) ?.study the verse, it says A GROUP AMONG THEM, meaning a group among the Jamaah;
with you (suffix second person male singular pronoun ) ?the Arab Messenger
and LET THEM take ( green prefix prefixed conjunction conjunction ) ?
their arms.
Then when
they have prostrated
then LET THEM be ...(GREENimperfect third person male plural jussive mood verb )
from
behind you

WHERE IS THE WORD "guarding with arms"??? YOU ARE NOT ALLAH, AUTHOR OF THIS QURAN, So dont try to be smart fabricating your own cooked up meaning in the Quran ...or is the Quran given to you directly FROM ALLAH ALMIGHTY that you can put any meaning that you like!

Next...

MEANING ....THEN WHEN THEY HAVE PROSTRATED ....SHOWS COMPLETION OF SALAH FROM THE QURANIC PERSPECTIVE;

If you wanna cook briyani, make sure put in the proper briyani spices, dont put in THOSAI OR APPUM SPICE, IT WILL TASTE AWFUL! ....IF YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE DONT TRY TO EXPLAIN THE QURAN, LEAVE IT TO THE EXPERT!

SO THE 1ST GROUP AMONG THEM COMPLETED THEIR PRAYERS with THE MESSENGER

ANOTHER GROUP FROM THE JAMAAH. NOTE THIS PART OF VERSE 102, USE THE WORD "ANOTHER".....

next ....

and let come
A GROUP -
ANOTHER,
not
prayed,
and let them pray
with you
and let them take
their precautions
and their arms.

SO THE 2ND GROUP WAS ALSO REMINDED TO TAKE ARMS AS NECESSARY PRECAUTION.

if we make out the meaning from the word to to word translation then it means "let the other group not prayed come forward and pray with you and let them take precaution and their arm"
in other words ....after sujood , let the first group go behind and let the other group join the Messenger for the prayer ..join in the second congregation prayers. So the correct tralations is -

When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let A PARTY OF THEM stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let THE OTHER PARTY come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee,and let them take their precautions and their arms.

I never take Quranic verses as a joke, unlike you, sectarian, will take Quranic verses as joke because to you Quran is nothing, the word of dead men are more valuable than the words of ALLAH.

My last post so peace

parvez_mushtaq

Ok let me explain from the Quranic perspective

-And when (Time verb)

you are (highlighted part suffix second person male singular pronoun)?.Meaning the Arab messenger that was assigned to his people;
IN THEM (green suffix third person male plural pronoun ) ??the whole Jamaah
and you lead (green suffix second person male singular pronoun ) ?.the Arab Messenger AS IMAM
FOR THEM (green third person male plural pronoun ) ??the whole jamaah
the prayer
then let stand (Green imperfect third person female singular jussive mood verb)?.here taqum is a verb (meaning they stood for salah)
A GROUP (green female indefinite nominative noun )
AMONG THEM (suffix third person male plural pronoun) ?.study the verse, it says A GROUP AMONG THEM, meaning a group among the Jamaah;
with you (suffix second person male singular pronoun ) ?the Arab Messenger
and LET THEM take ( green prefix prefixed conjunction conjunction ) ?
their arms.

Yes you are correct ,the first group stood for salah with the arms
i don't know what you have understood by my writings but of course the first group stood with their arms ,your are correct and i agree with ....if i was wrong in my interpretation regrading i ask forgiveness to ALLAH subahnavatala and it was not deliberate if i gave this meaning to you .

WHERE IS THE WORD "guarding with arms"??? YOU ARE NOT ALLAH, AUTHOR OF THIS QURAN, So dont try to be smart fabricating your own cooked up meaning in the Quran ...or is the Quran given to you directly FROM ALLAH ALMIGHTY that you can put any meaning that you like!

Lol you mean to say all the groups were in the salah leaving the war .....of course the second group was guarding the first

I don't know why your using such a big fonts ....do you want to confuse the readers by this way

Any way

MEANING ....THEN WHEN THEY HAVE PROSTRATED ....SHOWS COMPLETION OF SALAH FROM THE QURANIC PERSPECTIVE;

where and how .....briyani again uh!
if there was a completion of prayer as you claim then
what are this words doing there

and of course second group was also informed to carry their arms while praying

My last post so peace

In case you change your mind than pl..pl..pl.. dont use big fonts ,i am not blind ,it become difficult to read the post ....if you don't want to answer than join the briyani party with us

parvez_mushtaq

Peace parvez.

If the brother is cooking you a biryani followed by curry, then sit with him and enjoy the meal together like good friends.

After all ,you have been going on with this conversation for a while.

GOD bless you both brothers.
Peace.

Thank you mate
it was really a looong discussion.....lets relax
it is 3 PM in the afternoon and i am starving
do you know we ,the south Indian Urdu speaking Muslims, are the best makers of the briyani in the world

so lets have the party ...have a plate
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/-xaksQaL80wM/VWrTcxETv3I/AAAAAAABEPI/SbuMf-NAsyc/s640/poi.jpg

Of course all are invited

I will tell you the best combination for briyani .....Chennai briyani with mumbai mutton kurma after that Hyderabadi falooda and at the end a paan from bangaluru ....wow ...i am starving heavily now

good_logic

Peace brothers,Hizbullah,parvez.

Thank you both for your kind replies.

I might just use the recipe from the best makers of biryani. I would try it ,it sounds yummi!

Anyway brothers, I forgot to mention,after you enjoy the meal as good friends, also hold the prayer together.

Brother Hizbullah leads the first "Rakaah",followed by brother parvez leading the second "Rakaah". Then call it quits.

GOD bless.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

biryani is awsome rest of the discussion i have no comment as when i feel hungry i just focus on food, lmao

parvez_mushtaq

Peace brothers,Hizbullah,parvez.

Thank you both for your kind replies.

I might just use the recipe from the best makers of biryani. I would try it ,it sounds yummi!

frankly don't know recipe ....i just taste and give my verdict

Anyway brothers, I forgot to mention,after you enjoy the meal as good friends, also hold the prayer together.

Brother Hizbullah leads the first "Rakaah",followed by brother parvez leading the second "Rakaah". Then call it quits.

GOD bless.
Peace.

Lol , Gl
it happens ...sometime when we dont agree on an issue but each and everyone here is my friend .Today me and Hizb were on the opposite side of an issue ,may be some time later ,we may on the same time side in a different issue ...its just an argument nothing personal .I am a easy going guy .you might have noticed me ,i submit to the truth with all humility .no doubt this forum has enriched me in spiritual knowledge .
but then, biriyani is at its best when it is hot and spicy .

parvez_mushtaq

biryani is awsome rest of the discussion i have no comment as when i feel hungry i just focus on food, lmao

lol, Imran
of course you cannot enjoy Shelley with empty belly
as per me this thread was as spicy as briyani eat

parvez_mushtaq

Peace parvez.

If the brother is cooking you a biryani followed by curry, then sit with him and enjoy the meal together like good friends.

After all ,you have been going on with this conversation for a while.

GOD bless you both brothers.
Peace.

And ALLAH bless you gl too

Ok Hizb, after thinking for a while ,I think you are correct in your point of view and with traditional back ground i want to carry on with my thinking
I was bit carried away by the way you people pray ....because for me this is some things new and i cannot digest that change
you know old traditions cannot accept the new changes even though they are formulated from the quran
i am sorry if i hurt you with my "cooking" stuff ....perform salah as you wish and i will do it by my way .BTW ,only ALLAH subhanavatala is going decide who is right and who is wrong ....lets be friends and handshake

parvez_mushtaq

Salaam Parvez,

Walaikumsalam Rahamatullahi Wabarakathahu

RED We? He did not say that to me.

But i thought he told also
Verse 2.158
Indeed, as-Safa and al-Marwah are among the symbols of Allah. So whoever makes Hajj to the House or performs 'umrah - there is no blame upon him for walking between them. And whoever volunteers good - then indeed, Allah is appreciative and Knowing.

RED I do not understand what you mean with this.

You just repeated what you said. Lets suppose I am in Mecca to do the hajj. Then I decide to leave the matter to Allah. Then what? I just wait in my hotel room? A lot of people say this, I mean "I left it to Allah" but I never understood what that means. Can you explain how He guided you in hajj when you left the matter to Him.

ok
Let me explain you with a indecent that happened during Tawaf
I had a doubt is it correct to supplicate ALLAH subhanavatala by torching the walls of Kaba by both hands
i did that in the beginning but when i got that doubt i was bit hesitant .so i thought lets leave this matter to ALLAH subahnavatala
If you want to see the humanity at its best ,than it is Kaba ...every one wants to help his fellow mate in order to please ALLAH subhanantala
one day ,while i am Tawaf (over crowded on that ),I felt hands on my shoulders .When i look back ,I saw a woman assisting an old man and she requested me to help him in the Tawaf .He was about 80 and dressed in a odd way (in that heat he was wearing a long coat!) So , i helped him .he was in the 6th lap and i was in the 7th .so my 7 laps were over but i want to make his laps to be completed .So ,in the 7th lap ,i took him near the walls of Kaba and told him to supplicate(thinking that he will pleased with me ) but to my surprise he refused supplicate by touching the walls and he was telling me something (i dont know what was his language ) only words that i understand was ,towheed,Ibrahim,Ismail and nothing else and he was pointing towards sky and told lots of things with the tears in his eyes .after the Tawaf ,i took him out he was very much pleased and hugged me with same tears .i still wonder how he was alone in that crowd that too without a companion .it is impossible for a man of 80 to walk in such a crowd (was he mehdi).But one thing was very clear for me from his words and my doubt was cleared .do you know what .......we should supplicate holding the walls of Kaba ...and that was the only message i understood from him
Be there i experience this things

GREEN Sure, there is nothing wrong imo in the 1400 old prayer.
RED Maybe they are all wrong and it should be pronounced as majreha.

May be.....what i want to emphasis is that Islam is not Ahadith bounded but it is bounded by oral traditions .no one carried Ahadith books or any books in their hands but everything was performed or orally thought .That is why even after the invention of printing press people never used it to print Quran or any other Islamic texts

Maybe your way of pray is similar to those of 1400 years back, but does it make it the only way to pray?
If I pray in my way will Allah not hear me?
Do we need a special code (=ritual) before Allah listens to us?

You may be correct if this verse was not there in Quran
2.13
And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know not.

Recluse

If there was such a thing as "true Islam", we wouldn't be arguing endlessly here....

After 1400 years we are still arguing...in vain...

Because people are seeking something that in reality doesn't exist...

Real Islam is non-existant...

It will never be found...

imrankhawaja

this argue will never finish , whatever sect movement anything we try to do all in vain,,,

i start realising something important we everybody missing, every sect, sunni , shia, quranist , everybody, something is missing , missing link ,

Recluse

this argue will never finish , whatever sect movement anything we try to do all in vain,,,

i start realising something important we everybody missing, every sect, sunni , shia, quranist , everybody, something is missing , missing link ,

The missing link is very simple, but extremely hard to acknowledge if you have been indoctrinated from childhood.

The crude reality is this; all religions are (mostly) rubbish; there is no miracle book with miracle solutions to humanity's problems...

God gave us a mind /intellect and conscience for a reason....

Peace

imrankhawaja

hmm, humanity problems and religious problems are two different things