undisputed facts about Quran

Comrox

I was recently discussing the topic of undisputed (pretty much) facts about Quran that atheists/agnostics may find interesting, and it was suggested others might find this info helpful, so here is some of them.

If you have some to add, feel free.

This is a great idea. I think it would be helpful and clearer to the reader if this list was numbered though.

Historians agree that Arabia prior to Quran was fairly non-advanced scientifically/technologically, tribal law dominated. Yet, after Quran and early islam, its followers created a successful empire, and became the most scientifically/technologically advanced nation on earth.... for a time.

I've seen some atheists/non Muslims (albeit on YouTube and other common social media platforms) disagree with this claim.

The Quran claimed "the reminder" would be preserved, and it seems this is the case, and at most a few letters/words can said to have variance. Please note, to my knowledge, no minor variances has ever been subjected to a systematic check to determine if they can be reduced/eliminated or not.

Didn't runninglikezebras and others claim in the thread "The great secret of Islam - the hidden history of Islam revealed" that the accepted history of the Qur'an's preservation is false? Even if the account told in that thread is untrue, it still stands that now some people may believe that the Qur'an has not been preserved, and thus this cannot be an undisputed fact.

Peace. peace

Wakas

I've seen some atheists/non Muslims (albeit on YouTube and other common social media platforms) disagree with this claim.

Which nations did they claim were more advanced?

Didn't runninglikezebras and others claim in the thread "The great secret of Islam - the hidden history of Islam revealed" that the accepted history of the Qur'an's preservation is false? Even if the account told in that thread is untrue, it still stands that now some people may believe that the Qur'an has not been preserved, and thus this cannot be an undisputed fact.

By "undisputed (pretty much) facts" I did not mean every single person in the entire world agrees, only the vast majority do based on the evidence. Evidence being the key word.

Comrox

Which nations did they claim were more advanced?

I don't think they claim that another nation was more advanced, rather that the achievements of the Islamic Golden Age did not come from Muslims, and these advancements either came from non-Muslims during that time or they were ideas taken from ancient civilizations (such as the Greeks).

There is a YouTube video by Bill Warner who claims specifically that because Muslims took over so many places, they took over their land and their "intellectuals" as he puts it. (I will admit that he does come across as against Muslims, in my view.)

Also here is a YouTube commenter talking about algebra "Your claim that algebra was ?invented? is interesting as math can NOT be invented but rather is discovered. Having said that, algebra was NOT discovered by Muslims as it has a history stretching back to Babylonian times. Algebra as a study existed in Ancient Greece (look up Diophantus who is called ?the father of algebra?) and roman era Greeks practiced higher levels of algebra than did al-Khwarizmi (look up Arithmetica). Also, Greco- Roman science served as the basis for most of the scientific achievements of the so called ?Islamic Golden Age? as did Indian science. Even during the expansion of the caliphates the Byzantine Greeks were able to maintain a technological edge over their Islamic contemporaries. Byzantine ingenuities such as Greek fire (a technology which the Arabs could never replicate) enabled the weakened empire to survive for centuries against relentless Arab Muslim onslaught."

By "undisputed (pretty much) facts" I did not mean every single person in the entire world agrees, only the vast majority do based on the evidence. Evidence being the key word.

I understand now. Thanks.

reel

I don't think they claim that another nation was more advanced, rather that the achievements of the Islamic Golden Age did not come from Muslims, and these advancements either came from non-Muslims during that time or they were ideas taken from ancient civilizations (such as the Greeks).

I saw those videos. There is something they avoid talking about.

Here is how research works
Academically, before we can research anything we have to go back the past research papers/books written about it. Some of them form the basics which must be utilized for the new research. It also saves one from wasting time on what is already there and plagiarism. This is how discovery and invention work. Even Darwin built on his theory of evolution by looking into the work of evolutionists from Muslims of the Golden age. However, evolution was not discovered by them. They just provided more theories.

The interest to learn about the world and willingness to progress seem to have a big connection with the Quran. When I started reading about House of Wisdom I got the feeling that it was the 8th century free-minds forum P The only difference is that the former had huge amount of fund and face to face discussions. Even Caliph Al Mamun could not resist debating on philosophical issues at that place.

But anyways, here is one of my most favorite scientists of the Golden age era https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen It seems he was more of a Quran only Muslim who had issue with both sunnis and mutazilas.

Didn't runninglikezebras and others claim in the thread "The great secret of Islam - the hidden history of Islam revealed" that the accepted history of the Qur'an's preservation is false? Even if the account told in that thread is untrue, it still stands that now some people may believe that the Qur'an has not been preserved, and thus this cannot be an undisputed fact.

lol, their claim had a big problem. They said that Quran was derived from notebook made on the books of Nazarene guys. This got me the question Why then no other book of theirs was found to carry binary Symmetric structure? Then they went onto using sana manuscript as proof. Unfortunately, Birmingham Quran manuscript from prophet's time debunked whatever they claimed. I find the idea of running after sana manuscript pretty useless considering the fact that when copying mistakes happen and plus even today plenty of groups try to change Quran only to be rejected by the masses later. Then we have black magicians who are known to write Surahs backward for their hocus pocus tricks.

Anyways, back to the main topic
I think the biggest factor about the Quran is its power. I am saying this from reflection. When I first joined here I was overly into the idea that Allah's law does not change. I took it as a sign that miracles given in the Quran were not miracles and that they could be explained scientifically because they were attached to the laws of the universe. Boy, I was wrong! Miracles do exist and I came to know about it only after I began using the verses in my everyday life. It gets taken away only when I suddenly fall prey to satanic tradition of arrogance. I now get that there is power in the humbleness found specifically in the Quran.

And of course, then we have this

Humans are all equal
And those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and whose affair is consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend. 4238
You can't force laws on others without their consent

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort or refuse, then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.4135

And O my people, give full measure and weight in justice and do not deprive the people of their due and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption.1185

Freedom of thought and Individualism
And you have come to Us individually, just as We had created you the first time; and you have left behind you all that We have provided for you; and We do not see your intercessors with you that you used to claim were with you in partnership; all is severed between you, and what you have claimed has abandoned you."694

And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.6116
Also check

Say, "Each works according to his manner, but your Lord is most knowing of who is best guided in way."1784

Freedom of Religion
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, would you compel the people in order that they become believers?1099

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.1829

There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.2256

Surah 109
Say Oh you who turn away
I do not worship what you worship,
nor do you worship what I worship.
And I will not worship what you worship,
Nor will you worship what I worship.
Your way is yours, and my way is mine.

Freedom of Speech and Criticism
And be patient over what they say and avoid them with gracious avoidance.7310

And when you see those who engage in discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people.668

And when they hear ill speech, they turn away from it and say, "For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. Peace will be upon you; we seek not the ignorant."2855

The Quran repeatedly asks us to think, reflect, look at nature/history/biology/etc to verify what it says, and in fact challenges the reader to bring a chapter like it, find contradiction in it etc.

I have gathered the verses )

Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason. 822

And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah , and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason. 10100

And within the land are neighboring plots and gardens of grapevines and crops and palm trees, several from a root or otherwise, watered with one water; but We make some of them exceed others in fruit. Indeed in that are signs for a people who reason.134

He causes to grow for you thereby the crops, olives, palm trees, grapevines, and from all the fruits. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought.And He has subjected for you the night and day and the sun and moon, and the stars are subjected by His command. Indeed in that are signs for a people who reason.And whatever He multiplied for you on the earth of varying colors. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who remember.1611-13

But when they are told, "Follow what God has bestowed from on high," some answer, "Nay, we shall follow that which we found our forefathers believing in and doing." Why, even if their forefathers did not use their REASON at all, and were devoid of all guidance?217

Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding.Who remember Allah while standing or sitting or on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, , "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly; exalted are You; then protect us from the punishment of the Fire.3190-191

So let man observe from what he was created.865

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.

imrankhawaja

seventh century rejection by some prominent individuals (cheif tribes man)

He is poet, he is magician, these are tales of old,

21st century rejectors (scientist, athiest, scholars of diff religions)

this book contradicts, this is work of plagarism from greek and persia, he was warlord and he capture sources of history. mathematical errros, 2o grammetical errors by the book of abdul fadi, quran claim earth is flat, muhammad never show any miracle why?

in all this time from prophet moses david jesus then muhammad i realise , the one who use his sense is the winner of the mystery. becoz when u use your sense honestly it will leads you towards your creator/source/master/initiator

all this time of history last 1400 years, claims are still there but they change its shape, interestingly look at it all , the people of that time didnt claim prophet is liar, but they were claiming these old tales are lies. seventh century people were proud of their litereture but when this master peiece come at first they confuse whether its poetry or summary, whether it literature or warning? so they started caling him poet..

when people are convincing with this truth , rejectors addressing him as a magician,

now come to the 21 century , they have establish science now they try to attack on quran grammertically, scientifically , and in their evidence they show us some interpretation by traditional of old scholars. no body is calling him poet now ,but they are thinking after verification its truth , it must be stolen from somebody else..was it not a time when they was unaware whats under the water of deep ocean,

conclusion.

if they are true in their claim, why no poet of seventh century or any century write a book like this,

if its a work of plagarism. now they have more plagarised copy inthe shape of quran, why no body can create a better plagarised copy of greek work ,,they can call their assistant if they want.

if he was really a war lord ,why he forgive the very first people who was responsible for his migration, even thogh if he already knew their agenda why didnt he killed them all to hide his agenda.

if he was a magician, why till today no magician come who will follow by billions.
even a kid know in circus . about the truth of magic.

why time by time every prediction or prophesy of quran match and happen exactly how its been told to us.apart from some future prophesies like judgement day?

pick a scientific book 200 years old and let me know how much mistakes you will find in it after reading updated version of new science book

muhammad never show miracle , because it was the planning of God what to get at what specific time. what about jesus david and moses they bring large quantity of miracles people still reject the message. they trap their own trick,, is it not a miracle quran is the only book that stand with its own words whatever it claims.
cant you see quran talks with you , have you ever seen a book that talks about you.. and you realise you are being connected with some mysterious connection.

at that time and present time quran was updated will be updated ,

peace

good_logic

Peace.

I checked the following facts and I found they hold ( Check as per 1736)

SOME SIMPLE FACTS

The first verse (11), "Basmalah" consists of 19 Arabic letters.
Each of the four Arabic words of "Basmalah" are repeated in the Quran in multiples of 19 in numbered verses. The first word..."Ism" (Name).....occurs...19 times The second word.."Allah" (God)....occurs...2698 times (19x142). The third word..."Al-Rahman" (Most Gracious)...57 times (19x3) The fourth word.."Raheem" (Most Merciful)..114 times (19x6)
The above can be verified by the following
In the Concordance of the Quran by Abdul Baqy on page 362 the word ISM is listed with 19 occurrences. The peculiar spelling of the word ISM as BISM is repeated in the Quran three times in verses 11, 2730 & 1141. (1+1+27+30+11+41 + number of occurrences 3 =114 or 19x6)
The count of the word ALLAH can best be verified by Dr. Rashad Khalifa's translation of the Quran which carries the cumulative total occurrences of ALLAH on each page. Abdul Baqy gets the same count when the numbered verse 11 is included in his count.
On page 307 on Abdul Baqy's concordance we find AL REHMAN to be 57 as total occurrences.
The word AL RAHEEM is listed on page 307 as occurring 95 times, while RAHEEM is listed on page 309 as occurring as 20 times. The total occurrence is 114 (95 -1 + 20 = 114). AL RAHEEM in verse 9128 is not counted (Note verses 9128 & 129 were falsely injected into the Quran after the death of the prophet. The subject will be discussed in another topic).
The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is ...19 x 6
The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or ..19x334.
6346 is the total of 6234 numbered verses and 112 un-numbered verses (Basmalah) Also 6 + 3 + 4 + 6 = 19
From the missing Basmalah in sura 9 to the extra Basmalah in sura 27, there are precisely 19 suras.
The Quran mentions 30 different numbers.(Eg 300 & 9 in verse 1825). The sum of the 30 numbers is 162, 146 or 19 x 8534.
The sum of all verse numbers where God "Allah" is mentioned is 118, 123 or 19 x 6, 217.

QURANIC INITIALS

There are 29 suras in the Quran with prefixed initials. All the initials are linked to the common denominator - 19. "Q" (Qaaf) is initialed in suras 42 and 50. In both the suras,"Q" is repeated 57 times or 19 x 3.

"Nun" (Noon) is initialed in sura 68 and if you take the name of the letter is spelled out as - "noon wow noon" - like in the original text. The total count of "Nun" is 133 or 19 x 7.

"S" (Saad) is initialed in suras, 7, 19, 38, and the total occurrence in the three suras is 152 or 19 x 8.

"Y.S" (Ya Seen). These two letters are prefixed in Sura 36 and the total occurrence for both of them is 285 or 19 x 15.

"H.M" (Ha Mim). These letters prefix suras 40 through 46 and their total occurrence in the seven "H.M" initialed suras is 2147 or 19 x 113.

"`A.S.Q" ('Ayn Seen Qaf). These initials constitute Verse 2 of sura 42 and are repeated in the sura 209 or 19 x 11 times.

GOD bless.
Peace.

fye

The whole book is disputable but it also defends it's self by contain the disputes that each kind of disputer will bring forth or up.

reel

The whole book is disputable but it also defends it's self by contain the disputes that each kind of disputer will bring forth or up.

This applies to every single book in the world.

fye

Not every book. Say the bible it doesn't hold the disputes against Mary.
She could have just lied that book doesn't even being up the question.

imrankhawaja

Not every book. Say the bible it doesn't hold the disputes against Mary.
She could have just lied that book doesn't even being up the question.

thats y sometimes bible claim the divinity of mary good show,,

reel

Not every book. Say the bible it doesn't hold the disputes against Mary.
She could have just lied that book doesn't even being up the question.

Many atheists come from Christianity and they do dispute the bible. But again, whether someone will accept a Quran depends largely on whether he wants to be guided. Even during Prophet's time, people did reject Quranic chapters/verses. Hence we have

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.1829

fye

But these books are not all written the same. The Quran has a different story telling method. It's true and it presents the option of belief and disbelief. But it argues for it's self and it breaks down it's agreement to an elementary level. The Quran is right it's obviously true but when you choose to believe you end up with your whole life centering around this.

huruf

Cathlic and Orthodox literature has made a great deal of Mary, but the New testamentte itself is veryhort on Mary ad does ot make a great deal of her. In fact in giving real importance to Mary the Bible amounts to nothing, she is thre like a ghost. What gavve weight to the fiure of Mary ha been the mother-divinity upheld by religionns prvious to Christianity. The Caholics and orthodox had the good sense to acknowledge that a religionn where evverything was male did to appeal to popular belief. to have a feminine part was fundametal to get to the people.

The bible is not precisely a female promoting collection of books.

Salaam

reel

But these books are not all written the same. The Quran has a different story telling method. It's true and it presents the option of belief and disbelief. But it argues for it's self and it breaks down it's agreement to an elementary level. The Quran is right it's obviously true but

I agree that Quran has a different story telling method, but probably not all will be convinced by the content. Most won't approach it the way we do because they are made to believe by sectarians that all the interpretations found in it are correct. Heehee, we know how much truth lies in that claim.

when you choose to believe you end up with your whole life centering around this.

Are you talking about those who follow only Quran or sectarians? I think most of us center our lives around the book is because we are curious and willing to learn.

I am sorry Wakas for going off topic. Fye, if you wish to discuss it just open a new thread. It is an interesting topic anyways.

fye

Many atheists come from Christianity and they do dispute the bible. But again, whether someone will accept a Quran depends largely on whether he wants to be guided. Even during Prophet's time, people did reject Quranic chapters/verses. Hence we have

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.1829

Yep that's how the story progression of the book goes surah 2 the guide introduces himself to the reader

fye

Reel and huruf

I understand what your saying but Quran only is a sectarian thing too.
You don't want a name it's like making friends you just do your thing and the disciples bring themselves.
Did Jesus name His group of disciples?

No man
Keep your circles but don't forget your duty to your fellow believer.
The religion is not something cultural like hats vs turbans. It's just what do you believe and did you hear the story of or ayat of.....

I'm an abrahamic monotheist I believe in one God and prophet Abraham's theory of creation. Theist for theist
Theory.

Mono one theory

Everything is just pieces.
Have you heard the story of prophet Abraham when he places birds on hill's. They all came and when they met each other they swarmed like particles of cloud flocking in spirals left and right still in flight.

Islam is abrahamic monotheism
The kabba is the house of prophet Abraham, may ALLAH bless Muhammad ( the praiseworthy one )
And may those climbing the ranks someday become the messenger.
Ralso I think it's somewhere in surah 2

reel

Reel and huruf

I understand what your saying but Quran only is a sectarian thing too.
You don't want a name it's like making friends you just do your thing and the disciples bring themselves.
Did Jesus name His group of disciples?

No man
Keep your circles but don't forget your duty to your fellow believer.
The religion is not something cultural like hats vs turbans. It's just what do you believe and did you hear the story of or ayat of.....

I'm an abrahamic monotheist I believe in one God and prophet Abraham's theory of creation. Theist for theist
Theory.

Mono one theory

Everything is just pieces.
Have you heard the story of prophet Abraham when he places birds on hill's. They all came and when they met each other they swarmed like particles of cloud flocking in spirals left and right still in flight.

Islam is abrahamic monotheism
The kabba is the house of prophet Abraham, may ALLAH bless Muhammad ( the praiseworthy one )
And may those climbing the ranks someday become the messenger.
Ralso I think it's somewhere in surah 2

The true meaning of sect is inside Quran. None matches us. In order to be sectarian you have to do the following
have doubt about the scripture (4214). Examples "Can you show me salaat in the Quran?"
be confused about the original religion/deen and not investigate what you believe. (2351-54).
use violent towards other out of confusion 665-66

You will also find some examples of sects in Quran and one of them happens to be belief in innovation.

I have just found out about the ring theory connected to Quran. Here is the link if someone wishes to investigate it http//www.islam21c.com/islamic-thought/ring-theory-the-qurans-structural-coherence/

imrankhawaja

I have just found out about the ring theory connected to Quran. Here is the link if someone wishes to investigate it http//www.islam21c.com/islamic-thought/ring-theory-the-qurans-structural-coherence/

reel its quite interesting and excellent link thanks for sharing..

fye

Salaam and back to sects

Do you understand how division weakens a whole?
And how can anyone choose to be anything but what ALLAH tells him to be?

The believers are simply called the believers throughout the book having a heiarchy of rank a sect would have it's own hierarchy and would be objectors to the whole but the world has changed a but but people are still genetically the same born with the same ideals and to make the same actions over and over again if. A parents rejects faith so will the child so expecting from the parables in previous generations only I only expect at least 3 people to believe with the messenger and at least one will simply be a hipocrate. I like start another post about this.

herbman

Undisputed facts about Quran

1- Quran is written in arabic, this is an undisputed fact see 122, 1337, 16103, 26195 etc...

This simple statement is quiet a "big" argument when I asked the same question to a Christian in which language is the Bible written, answer is not easy as it might seem!!!
What ever old Bible archaeologists may found you will never know if it is the original language or just a translation!!!!

2- Quran is written in people's language
433 We have made it a Qur'an in arabic, that ye may be able to understand (and learn wisdom).
Again this is another argument for my catholic friend )

3- Quran does not insult "messengers"
Suleiman is described as a honorable man in Quran
Elias is described as honorable man in Quran
Lot is described as honorable man in Quran
list can go on with Job...

For source wiki https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon
In Islamic tradition, Solomon is venerated as a prophet and a messenger of God, as well as a divinely appointed monarch, who ruled over the Kingdom of Israel. As in Judaism, Islam recognizes Solomon as the son of King David, who is also considered a prophet and a king but contrary to Judaism, Islam completely denies the claim that Solomon had sinned or turned to idolatry.

{{And they followed what the devils taught during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but it was the devils who disbelieved. They taught the people witchcraft and what was revealed in Babylon to the two angels Harut and Marut. They did not teach anybody until they had said, "We are a test, so do not lose faith." But they learned from them the means to cause separation between man and his wife. But they cannot harm anyone except with God's permission. And they learned what would harm them and not benefit them. Yet they knew that whoever deals in it will have no share in the Hereafter. Miserable is what they sold their souls for, if they only knew.}}.

For Elias in the Bible he is described as a man who slaughtered 400 monks see story of Jezabel and Baal
For Lot in the Bible he is described as a drunk man, his daughter abused of him when he was drunk after the event of Sodom!

4- Quran misguides the perverts people

37
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are not of well-established meaning. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not of well-established meaning. Seeking discord, and searching for its interpretation, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in it; the whole of it is from our Lord"; and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Look at the so-called sunnis today cutting of hands, having sexual slaves, making unjust wars etc...

Peace