undisputed facts about Quran

Jafar

Yes you are absolutely correct, GOD, is a great manifestation of HIS mercy, but how do you now that? HOW Jafar? Do you think all this while it is the wisdom of mankind that this world functions. If you do not KNOW the concept of GOD HOW COULD YOU accept or rather how do you know that it is GOD who planned.. whether it's willingly or unwillingly.. happily or angrily?

How? You should ask Him directly...
From my own personal experience it is just a matter of 'realization'..
For you things might be different.. for others things might be different as well..
Everybody has their own role to play...

It is not at our own free will. Mankind were at ground zero.

On the absolute level, there is no such thing as 'free' will..

Once the message had been finalised thats it! No more Prophets only messengers.

Nope the message is not yet 'finalised'.. if finalized here you mean no more revelation..
Revelation is a continuing process up until now, and instead of "stopping" it's actually "accelerating"..

I don't want to go into "what is prophets or messenger" because truly it doesn't matter, the revelation is what truly matter.. the channel doesn't matter..

Its human nature to defy things which they are not aware, if suppose GOD would have not sent HIS prophets and a HIS Books, than it will be a different scenario, it will be the opposite of what Jafar had said.

The tradition or notion of "Prophets" only exist on a specific culture among human..(Semites / Israelites)
The majority of human doesn't even have this conception of "prophet" or "Gods spokeperson".
And or see themselves as the "Chosen one" and / or "Most enlightened" compared to the other human.

What would happen to those without the notion of "prophets"? Well see the humanity all around you now.. they're doing ok, progressing.. rapidly as time progress... they are billions in number... and growing..To some extent those who doesn't have any notion of "prophet" (or holy books) fare better than those who do..

When GOD send messengers and HIS books, you deny them, and if GOD do not send messengers and HIS books, you will ask, why GOD do not send messengers and HIS books as proves? So this how you will twist and turn, beat around the bush....

The people of Musa saw miracles and yet they denied the GOD in many occasion. Why Jafar?

Ergh... billions of those who didn't even have any notion of "God's Spokeperson" or "God's Book" never asked for one.. to them the entire notion of "God has wrote a book" is totally ridiculous..
In the same manner as you find the concept of "God's developed a holy computer application" ridiculous...

Regarding Musa, I wasn't even born when that even (supposed) to happen...
I really can't tell what truly happened.. perhaps it never happened at all... perhaps he never exist at all..
So I cannot comment merely on speculation or "based on the story of others"..

Last but not least.. God "speaks" through conscience.. never lose your conscience, side with it at all time..
God's revelation hasn't stop...

imrankhawaja

Where is your proof? Btw my logic is base from the Quran and it shows me that the original and oldest Arabic version Quran was written in Cursive Musnad script not Hijazi or Kufic script or Nastaliq Script! HIJAZI SCRIPT WAS ADOPTED IN THE 4TH CENTURY / 5TH CENTURY

Raqqush Inscription base on Nabatean Aramaic script dated in the 3rd Century. This is Ancient North Arabian script

http//arabetics.com/public/html/DeArabizing_Arabia/DeArabizing_Arabia_Chapter_3_English_files/image001.png

Jabal Ramm inscription dated in the 5th Century. . This inscription is the first oldest so far discovered in the Arabic alphabet. The grammar in this inscription is straightforward classical Arabic.

http//arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image012.gif

So called Pre-Islamic Arabic Inscription At Umm Al-Jimal. The grammar in this inscription is straightforward classical Arabic.

http//arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image022.jpg

Zebed Inscription So called A Pre-Islamic Trilingual Inscription In Greek, Syriac & Arabic from 5th / 6th Century CE. The Arabic is classical Arabic .

http//arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image005.gif

Jabal Usays InscriptionSo called Pre-Islamic Arabic Inscription From 528 CE. This is the only so called pre-Islamic Arabic inscription with historical content.

https//s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/90/4a/ee/904aee273b1a96f93443ade5418661fe.jpg

Harran Inscription So called Pre-Islamic Arabic Inscription From 568 CE. A Greek-Arabic bilingual inscription from Harran, near Damascus, Syria.

https//squarekufic.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/harran1.png?w=676

One of the two earliest Arabic Kf inscriptions found in Mount Sal`, Madnah, Saudi Arabia. Dated 4 Islamic Hijr calendar (625 CE)

http//arabetics.com/public/html/more/History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Script_article_files/image014.jpg

In the 3rd and 4th Century CE, only ANA and ASA were use in the north and Yemen respectively.

Exactly, that was what i am trying to tell you, ALLAH WILL TALK TO US IN OUR NATIVE LANGUAGE AS PER QURAN 1404!

My replied to you in my thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.90

all your post is just showing me some arabic test, musnad test, symbol test, watch ancient aliens on H2 channel you will geet lot more i m sure, what does that mean, God is alien by presenting these pictures shit do you think that its proof ,

in more clear way, if i find a text of urdu or persion language dated back 2000 years ago, scientist verify it, does it mean my language was there , i know the history of udu is not more than 200 years old, this language drived from arabic, and persion, so if muahmmad comes this day and start reveling quran in urdu , and some archealogist find a test dated back 150 years old by syed ahmed khan , does it mean urdu quran is also `150 years old, use some common sense atleast.

ok again where is my answer, from quran what you claim? i know u dnt have any answer so stop trying to distract innocent people by these so called writings, its my third time i m asking you what u claim and you are still playing hide and seek with me,

peace God bless you

imrankhawaja

ok find me something even a single verse from dated back text of so called musnad , in which we see any quranic verse, of todays quran,

its an open challange come on now, lets see where we are standing,

i just need a single verse on any tablets wodden frame , any leather pad, any animal skin, that indicates quran, do you or anybody in this world have it?if not then i m sorry to even waste my time on this theory anynmore,

the traditonal dates of quran is perfectly match with the oldest manuscript of quran that is in birmingham library.

burden of evidence is on your head ,

Two leaves of an early Quranic manuscript in the Mingana Collection of Middle Eastern manuscripts of the University of Birmingham's Cadbury Research Library were radiocarbon dated in 2015 between 568 and 645, suggesting that it may be among the oldest Quran manuscripts to date

The Mingana Collection, comprising over 3,000 documents, was compiled by Alphonse Mingana, in the 1920s, and was funded by Edward Cadbury, a philanthropist and businessman of the Birmingham-based chocolate-making Cadbury family.

i gave you my proofs of these so called people who are expert in examining the dates. but the difference between my findings and your findings are very different , i provide you my proof of quran, nd you are providing me a shit of arabic text written by someone in 3rd or 4th century, if it was quran then i would have been thinking about it, not arguing with you, hope you got it.

Bender

but the oldest copy of quran which is in birmingham library right now indicated the dates with the the dates of hadith(history)

its muslims who write the earliest history records i can understand hadith are not reliable but all the histories have same reliablity whether it is by muslims jews christians hindus so in light of history and the oldest copies indicates the muhammad was there and the dates are alright . evidences are enough

but again the people who are claiming opposite of it they dnt have any evidence so far , i will not gona beleive on their theories untill it will come to me with proper resoning and proof or any historical evidence.

peace

Hi,

RED The oldest found does not mean it was the first one.

BLUE There was some years ago a study done in the Netherlands about Mohammed, they could not find anything besides the ahadith that indicates the existence of Mohammed. I mean thus sources besides the arab ahadith.

What I like to know is how Chapter 12 (Yusuf) end up in the bible it has not to be neglected similarities with the story in the quran.

Bender

Originally it was written by Human or group of humans somewhere in the middle east region.

This is a speculation.

imrankhawaja

Hi,

RED The oldest found does not mean it was the first one.

i did not say its the first one , i said its the oldest one till date. may be we will find more older than this one in near future, before five years ago who was aware about it.

BLUE There was some years ago a study done in the Netherlands about Mohammed, they could not find anything besides the ahadith that indicates the existence of Mohammed. I mean thus sources besides the arab ahadith.

netherland why you are going so far, some years ago research happened here about jesus christ, moses, noah , but they did not find anything apart from bibilical stories ,

What I like to know is how Chapter 12 (Yusuf) end up in the bible it has not to be neglected similarities with the story in the quran.

its not my headache as i told you bible may contain words of God but also words of other sources, so the stories of bible must be match with quran its something normal and logical, but the stories should filter through quran , if its going agaisnt quran we should be careful.

imrankhawaja

@ bender

jsesu christ make dead alive, can anybody prove at this age, apart from bibal or quran,

muhammad was there can anybody prove in this age,apart from quran or hadith,

simply we cannot go back to the age and verify it,

may be bibal and quran are full of stories of old people,

Bender

i did not say its the first one , i said its the oldest one till date. may be we will find more older than this one in near future, before five years ago who was aware about it.

What I wanted to say is that maybe the first one was 2000 or 3000 years ago, we can not say anything about the first one by a found copy.

netherland why you are going so far, some years ago research happened here about jesus christ, moses, noah , but they did not find anything apart from bibilical stories ,

I live there.

BLUE And this has not to be neglected. Why can't we find outside sources?
btw the strange thing is that the "oldest" one (Noah) has more external sources than the younger ones. Everywhere in the world there are some legends and myths about an event which has great similarities with Noah's story.

its not my headache as i told you bible may contain words of God but also words of other sources, so the stories of bible must be match with quran its something normal and logical, but the stories should filter through quran , if its going agaisnt quran we should be careful.

Maybe it's not your headache, but for those who want to study the origin these kind of things have not to be neglected.

imrankhawaja

What I wanted to say is that maybe the first one was 2000 or 3000 years ago, we can not say anything about the first one by a found copy.
I live there.

BLUE And this has not to be neglected. Why can't we find outside sources?
btw the strange thing is that the "oldest" one (Noah) has more external sources than the younger ones. Everywhere in the world there are some legends and myths about an event which has great similarities with Noah's story.
Maybe it's not your headache, but for those who want to study the origin these kind of things have not to be neglected.

ok what i understand is we did not get eachother properly? untill i will listen about your understanding of muhammad,

with respect to quran , about the other sources i and u know very well , about their realibilty .

first tell me according to your understanind who muhammad is? where was he? or it was not a muhammad at all? forget about any history of muslims or christians , just anlyse it and i m sure you already research about it, so share ur understanding of muhammad with me, then we will proceed talk in a manner we both understand.

peace.

noah ark is also mention in quran , and history verify it, soddom and gomorrah, and lot of other things , are in perfec t harmony with quran , but we always doubt about the refferd person of book at that time he was present there so it must be something that raise questions regarding his personality. may be you are not getting what i try to say i make it simple,

let say today 2016 ad a messenger X comes up with live miracles and its sure its from God and tells us the stories of old including muhammad what he done where was he , how he wirte and collect quran, and after 1400 years, in 3400 ad we will ask who was x there is nothing mention about him in the book what he given us, we need to see wikipedia todays tenology that is recording the records of individual, can we rely on wikipedia we all know how its works,

mr x God mention four time in new quran and now we have nothing to prove who was mr x,

the present tense and past tense are in different sturucture, when quran was revelaing prophet was present, gabriel didnnot directly hand over this quran to humanity i think.

Hizbullah

all your post is just showing me some arabic test, musnad test, symbol test, watch ancient aliens on H2 channel you will geet lot more i m sure, what does that mean, God is alien by presenting these pictures shit do you think that its proof ,

What I have shown you are Ancient North Arabian Text and Classical Arabic Text which you do not have any knowledge whatsoever. you have been watching too much H2 channel and to you GOD IS ALIEN. You have the right to your own opinion

in more clear way, if i find a text of urdu or persion language dated back 2000 years ago, scientist verify it, does it mean my language was there , i know the history of udu is not more than 200 years old, this language drived from arabic, and persion, so if muahmmad comes this day and start reveling quran in urdu , and some archealogist find a test dated back 150 years old by syed ahmed khan , does it mean urdu quran is also `150 years old, use some common sense atleast.

So much gibberish!

ok again where is my answer, from quran what you claim? i know u dnt have any answer so stop trying to distract innocent people by these so called writings, its my third time i m asking you what u claim and you are still playing hide and seek with me,

It seems that you do not have a single knowledge of Quran and the history of the Middle East. You cannot comprehend simple English! You dont even bother to read what i have shown and talking gibberish!

This will be the third time in which i will show you the Quranic evidence

My replied to you in my thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.90

Quote from Hizbullah on May 17, 2016, 105846 PM
Q6304 - And when you see them, you wonder their personality, and if they speak, you listen to their speech. They were Musnad script wood....

There are more Quranic evidences and historical evidences, but whats the point showing to those who do not have the capacity of differentiating the truth and falsehood.

Hizbullah

ok find me something even a single verse from dated back text of so called musnad , in which we see any quranic verse, of todays quran,

its an open challange come on now, lets see where we are standing,

i just need a single verse on any tablets wodden frame , any leather pad, any animal skin, that indicates quran, do you or anybody in this world have it?if not then i m sorry to even waste my time on this theory anynmore,

Please read and if you do not understand, get an interpretor - http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.90

the traditonal dates of quran is perfectly match with the oldest manuscript of quran that is in birmingham library.

burden of evidence is on your head ,

Two leaves of an early Quranic manuscript in the Mingana Collection of Middle Eastern manuscripts of the University of Birmingham's Cadbury Research Library were radiocarbon dated in 2015 between 568 and 645, suggesting that it may be among the oldest Quran manuscripts to date

The Mingana Collection, comprising over 3,000 documents, was compiled by Alphonse Mingana, in the 1920s, and was funded by Edward Cadbury, a philanthropist and businessman of the Birmingham-based chocolate-making Cadbury family.

The Birmingham Quran was written in Hijazi / Jazm script. Historical evidences which i have shown you were written in Hijazi script. This script base on C14 and paleography, dated sometime in the 5th to the 6th Century CE. This script was used for writing Classical Arabic, the same as the Quranic Arabic. By early 7th Century CE, the written scipt used were mostly Kufic . If this is the case, it is plausible the Birmingham Quran was written in the Middle of the 6th Century where the so called Arab prophet was not even born yet! Furthermore, the 3,000 documents compiled by Mingana were not all Quranic but mostly Biblical written in Syriac script.

i gave you my proofs of these so called people who are expert in examining the dates. but the difference between my findings and your findings are very different , i provide you my proof of quran, nd you are providing me a shit of arabic text written by someone in 3rd or 4th century, if it was quran then i would have been thinking about it, not arguing with you, hope you got it.

I have already given you the GREATEST PROOF, THE QURAN 6304. As the Quran says, it is a manifestation of all things, indeed, it manifest itself to those who use their faculties of intelligent, eyesight and hearing.

For those who refuse and love to follow sectarian conjectures, the Quran says

Q0218 - Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return

Hizbullah

How? You should ask Him directly...
From my own personal experience it is just a matter of 'realization'..
For you things might be different.. for others things might be different as well..
Everybody has their own role to play...
On the absolute level, there is no such thing as 'free' will..
Nope the message is not yet 'finalised'.. if finalized here you mean no more revelation..
Revelation is a continuing process up until now, and instead of "stopping" it's actually "accelerating"..

I don't want to go into "what is prophets or messenger" because truly it doesn't matter, the revelation is what truly matter.. the channel doesn't matter..

The tradition or notion of "Prophets" only exist on a specific culture among human..(Semites / Israelites)
The majority of human doesn't even have this conception of "prophet" or "Gods spokeperson".
And or see themselves as the "Chosen one" and / or "Most enlightened" compared to the other human.

What would happen to those without the notion of "prophets"? Well see the humanity all around you now.. they're doing ok, progressing.. rapidly as time progress... they are billions in number... and growing..To some extent those who doesn't have any notion of "prophet" (or holy books) fare better than those who do..

Ergh... billions of those who didn't even have any notion of "God's Spokeperson" or "God's Book" never asked for one.. to them the entire notion of "God has wrote a book" is totally ridiculous..
In the same manner as you find the concept of "God's developed a holy computer application" ridiculous...

Regarding Musa, I wasn't even born when that even (supposed) to happen...
I really can't tell what truly happened.. perhaps it never happened at all... perhaps he never exist at all..
So I cannot comment merely on speculation or "based on the story of others"..

Last but not least.. God "speaks" through conscience.. never lose your conscience, side with it at all time..
God's revelation hasn't stop...

You did not answer the first few sentences of my question?

Let me tell you the story of Abraham. Now Abraham who was also stated in the Hindu Book of high dignitary, even god. He was called Brahma in the Hindu book.

Quran 0274 - 82

And, when Abraham said to his father Azar, "Do you take idols as deities? Indeed, I see you and your people to be in manifest error."

And thus did We show Abraham the realm of the heavens and the earth that he would be among the certain

So when the night covered him , he saw a star. He said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear."

And when he saw the moon rising, he said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray."

And when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my lord; this is greater." But when it set, he said, "O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with.

Indeed, I have turned my face toward He who created the heavens and the earth, a true monotheist, and I am not of the the polytheists.

And his people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me concerning ALLAH while He has guided me? And I fear not what you associate with HIM unless my Lord should will something. My Lord encompasses all things in knowledge; then will you not remember?

And how should I fear what you associate while you do not fear that you have associated with ALLAH that for which HE has not sent down to you any authority? So which of the two parties has more right to security, if you should know?

They who believe and do not mix their belief with injustice - those will have security, and they are guided.

Prophet Abraham was a knowledgeable man, he used his faculties of intelligence, eyesight and hearing. With this he was granted Prophethood. He conveyed the message to his people but they ignored him. They attempted to kill him but were not successful and he managed to escape.

They who believe and do not mix their belief with injustice - those will have security, and they are guided.

If your are a Deist and believe in the last days as the Quran confirms that those who believe in ONE GOD and the Last Days, you are Muslim. That is good enough! How many in this world will even be a Deist if its not for the message that GOD sent to mankind. Those who are successful, probably have a Deist believe in them. As long as you believe in the ONE LORD and the Last days, you are safe. GOD knows there are people like you and HE already conveyed that message. You and me do not know if not for the message of the messengers that were conveyed to our forefathers.

Q4914 - The Arabs said, "We are Mu'mens (believers)." Say, "You have not believed; what you should say is, 'We are Muslims (submitters),' until belief is established in your hearts." If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

imrankhawaja

This will be the third time in which i will show you the Quranic evidence

And if you saw them , their bodies pleases/marvels you, and if they say (talk), you hear/listen to their statement/word as if they are supported wood (logs), they think/suppose each/ every loud strong cry/torture raid is on (against) them, they are the enemy, so be warned/cautious (of) them , God fought them , (so) where/how (do) they be turned away ?

Yusuf Ali When thou lookest at them, their exteriors please thee; and when they speak, thou listenest to their words. They are as (worthless as hollow) pieces of timber propped up, (unable to stand on their own). They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies; so beware of them. The curse of Allah be on them! How are they deluded (away from the Truth)!

Pickthal And when thou seest them their figures please thee; and if they speak thou givest ear unto their speech. (They are) as though they were blocks of wood in striped cloaks. They deem every shout to be against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. Allah confound them! How they are perverted!

Arberry When thou seest them, their bodies please thee; but when they speak, thou listenest to their speech, and it is as they were propped-up timbers. They think every cry is against them. They are the enemy; so beware of them. God assail them! How they are perverted!

Shakir And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back?

Sarwar When the prayer ends, disperse through the land and seek the favor of God. Remember Him often so that perhaps you will have everlasting happiness.

H/K/Saheeh And when you see them, their forms please you, and if they speak, you listen to their speech. as if they were pieces of wood propped up they think that every shout is against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

Malik When you see them, their good stature pleases you; and when they speak, you listen to what they say. Yet they are as worthless as hollow pieces of propped up timber. Every shout they hear, they think it to be against them. They are your enemies, so guard yourselves against them. May Allah destroy them! How perverse they are

Maulana Ali** And when thou seest them, their persons please thee; and if they speak, thou listenest to their speech. They are like pieces of wood, clad with garments. They think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. May Allah destroy them! How they are turned back!

Free Minds And when you see them, you are impressed by their physical stature; and when they speak, you listen to their eloquence. They are like blocks of wood propped-up. They think that every call is intended for them. These are the enemies, so beware of them. May God condemn them; they have deviated.

Qaribullah When you see them their bodies please you, but when they speak and you listen to their sayings, they are like proppedup timber. Every shout (they hear) they take it to be against them. They are the enemy be wary of them. Allah kills them! How perverse they are!

George Sale When thou beholdest them, their persons please thee And if they speak, thou hearest their discourse with delight. They resemble pieces of timber set up against a wall. They imagine every shout to be against them. They are enemies; wherefore beware of them. God curse them How are they turned aside from the truth!

JM Rodwell When thou seest them, their persons make thee marvel; and if they speak, thou listenest with pleasure to their discourse. Like timbers are they leaning against a wall! They think that every shout is against them. They are enemies-Beware of them then-God do

Asad Now when thou seest them, their outward appearance may please thee; and when they speak, thou art inclined to lend ear to what they say. 4 as if they were timbers propped up, they think that every shout is against them. They are the enemies , so beware of them. "May God destroy them!" 5 How perverted are their minds!

Khalifa** When you see them, you may be impressed by their looks. And when they speak, you may listen to their eloquence. They are like standing logs. They think that every call is intended against them. These are the real enemies; beware of them. GOD condemns them; they have deviated

Hilali/Khan** And when you look at them, their bodies please you; and when they speak, you listen to their words. They are as blocks of wood propped up. They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies, so beware of them. May Allah curse them! How are they denying (or deviating from) the Right Path.

QXP Shabbir Ahemd** Now when you see them, their looks may impress you. And if they speak, you are inclined to listen to their speech. But they are like wooden logs propped up. (Empty of inner strength unable to stand on their own feet). They think that every call is directed against them. These are the real enemies, so beware of them. Allah condemns them. They are far deviated.

its you who need to understand what this quranic verse is talking about ,this verse clearly talking about people and people are like wooden frame , not the script of quran,

now i m doubt about your mental health .

you failed fourth time its enough to disqualified you from any claim what you are saying,

thank you so much for your evidence bravo

i highlight it i doubt about your eyessight advice for you go to dcotor and get your eyes checkup it you who are blind , not only by eyes by mind as well,

imrankhawaja

I have already given you the GREATEST PROOF, THE QURAN 6304. As the Quran says, it is a manifestation of all things, indeed, it manifest itself to those who use their faculties of intelligent, eyesight and hearing.

For those who refuse and love to follow sectarian conjectures, the Quran says

Q0218 - Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return

exactly people of intelligence understand very well about this verse , but people like you i m doubt about it, so this verse perfectly fit for people like you,

imrankhawaja

Q6304 - And when you see them, you wonder their personality, and if they speak, you listen to their speech. They were Musnad script wood....

this is your interpretation, do astagfar as much as you can for changing the meanings of quranic verse , how dare you to doing dishonesty with the book of God, do you have any fear or you forget the consequenses of rashad khalifa.

green words musnad script, nobody in the whole history interpret it like this , who gave you lisence to change the meanings of this verse, are you claiming urself a messenger or you have direct orders from God to change it like this

Hizbullah