Big Bang, God and Pantheism
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Peace to all,
I've seen older posts by some of our members who argued that God is fully part of this universe...
OK, but what about the Big Bang? Prior to the Big Bang there was no universe, no matter, no atoms...
Does that mean God didn't exist either before the Big Bang took place, or is my understanding of the Big Bang flawed????
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before big bang it was smoke and its also mention in quran i think , i could not recall the verse number ,
and thats what the perfection of Allah he creates something from nothing, he is master over all creation , to him belong whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth, to him belong the past present and future,
and morover time is to calculate after bigbang events , law of time cannot be applied on God, he is everliving eternal being,
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all it means is that people (here) have alot of different viewpoints, which cant all be correct.
in my understanding the quran refutes any concept of pantheism or panentheism.
gods name al-Ala (the superceeding or above-all) to me means that he cannot be apart of his creation.
just the fact of having creation and god being the creator means that he cannot be part of his creation unless he also created himself, however that cannot be because god is eternaly living (al-hayy) and the self-sufficent originator/creator (al-qayoom)
i used to believe in some form of poly/pantheism however gods names have helped me alot to understand his true nature.
in terms of the big bang.. who knows the big bang is only a theory (albeit one that seems to have supporting evidence). god however tells us how he creates, he says be, and it is. personaly it sounds like a very big bang to me.
this and other questions regarding the nature of god, and the universe, can more or less easily be answered by studying and understanding the quran, as it is al-furqan (the criterion or standard which we can judge by)
i believe the quran explains that god and the universe is not pantheistic and that God spoke and that was the big bang.. anything more than that i cant say because i have no certain knowledge, either way, while fascinating i think knowledge of the origin of the universe etc is not nesseccary for salvation, though it can inscrease belief in God, as it has for me. human beings have truely been blessed with what knowledge we have of our existance, and probably with a desire to seek the truth also.. but more than anything we should seek the truth from the source of truth, god (al-haqq), and his revelations not in scientific theory (though fascinating and thought provoking) or the opinions of others. if you want to find the truth skip the second and third-hand accounts and go straight to the one who speaks truth and has certain knowledge of everything.
peace
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Hello,
I argue like them, Recluse.
When you start talking about the nature of God it suddenly turns very complex and difficult to comprehend, but the answer is always following sound logic.
God cannot logically have a creator since there cannot be a beginning because according to logic that is impossible and therefore there cannot be an ending either. Even if God hypothetically had a creator and there in succession was once a creator, somewhere there needs to be something eternal and like a constancy. Rabb or God is a constancy and has no creator. God is an expanding consciousness that we are part of depending on whether we develop or not.
Obviously the nature of our existence is extremely difficult for us to understand, I can admit it is even hard for me although I know. It is hard to fathom there is something without a creator that has come into size on its own. For any person who is honest it ought to be hard to understand too. One might know the truth, but it is still difficult to grasp how it can be.
Where we come in is that God has made a main cycle of development in the world which is recurring for every person who does not find their way out and for them it is like a nightmare even if they are not aware of it themselves. The World is a contradiction, like a virtual reality, where there is a real dimension of existence beyond it which is actually quite near and time and space does not actually exist except that we are a development dependent on itself, following the same logic as God and we are like seeds of God inside of God and can never be separate.
God does have a use for us, but at the same time it does not matter when it happens or how many. We cause diversity to the Grand Consciousness like an imprint due to our personal development and this is the reason for the development ground (i.e. here = Jahennom = "attachment to outer layer" as it means morphologically in linguistics). For us to be part of Being (Allah) then we have to be like Being, i.e. as it says in Genesis "...in His image". There is a logical explanation as to why God would have a use for us and that is because otherwise God would not create something for entertainment without any use. The sectarian explanation lacks sound logic in the reasoning. It would be like having puppets in a garden. Even humans keep animals to have a use for them; their company or their produce.
The answer is that all of us have had a blank seed (soul) with innate features of God in it since God is innate in everyone, and this seed was meant to develop in a corrupting environment as to inflict some challenge and this is like "survival of the fittest" except that intelligence is the key to survival of the mind. The human adversary has been Satan all along as told in Genesis, but people do not understand Satan is not a person but the body's instinct and controlled by God in order to test. The "human" body (al-jinn) is actually a primate, an animal, with an imposed superior Spirit in it and like Jesus said "separate the Spirit from the Flesh", that is the solution. Satan is what enters firmly and this entering is what we ought not do.
This Spirit can grow and that is what is supposed to happen, you are supposed to be Being and not like an automated slave to the Flesh with no characteristic (dead = al-mowt).
Be well
Amenuel -
Thanks for the responses Timotheus and Man of faith, I appreciate it..
Currently I'm reading older threads about a variety of topics. I learn from them and they inspire me to look for further sources and information elsewhere. One thing that always strikes me is that even our most knowledgeable members can sometimes have rather inconsistent and illogical opinions or explanations, so I have learnt not to assume anything at face value anymore.
Even if someone is a professor of astronomy, philosophy or whatever, you have to always verify, think logically and continuously search for truth yourself. There is no easy meal. I myself had very strange, illogical and inconsistent beliefs in the past and probably still have some. Therefore we shouldn't think we already know everything and Always strive to be open-minded at all times.. this is what I've learned the hard way over the years.
I don't have an academic background or anything, but that doesn't stop me from easily detecting illogical assumptions and ideas disguised as scientific facts, which is quite common. A couple of days ago, I saw an article by some famous atheist female scientist where she argues that evolution is totally unguided and there is absolutely no God. I forgot her name (Greta or something)...it amazed me how a "prominent" scientist could say so many illogical things in one single article even though I'm not a scientist myself.
Her basic argument was this; you either accept science and atheism as absolute truth, or you are against science (and thus a religious nutcase). Not everything she said was unscientific or false, but many of her arguments were absolutely not scientific and some were outright in conflict with all current scientific evidence. She didn't come across as someone who is genuinely looking for truth, scientific facts or evidence, but was foolishly ranting about how you can NOT believe in God and evolution at the same time, which is rubbish really...
It baffles the mind that human beings can be so emotional and biased. That includes myself of course, although I'm trying hard not to be like that anymore. If I thought that there was strong proof for atheism and it made more sense, I would absolutely become an atheist, but I see no evidence for such a belief (and yes, atheism is definitely a religion). I have no reason to assume that a bunch of atoms created and organized this whole universe and all life in it all on their own... that sounds more like a fairy-tale or religion than science.
The only thing that matters is truth and sometimes we simply can not know it (yet), which is perfectly fine. I'm going to start reading this book, titled; "The Devil's Delusion Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions", by David Berlinsky, which unfortunately has been gathering dust on my shelves..
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Her basic argument was this; you either accept science and atheism as absolute truth, or you are against science (and thus a religious nutcase). Not everything she said was unscientific or false, but many of her arguments were absolutely not scientific and some were outright in conflict with all current scientific evidence. She didn't come across as someone who is genuinely looking for truth, scientific facts or evidence, but was foolishly ranting about how you can NOT believe in God and evolution at the same time, which is rubbish really...
You are right. I have dealt with that in past posts concerning the illogical nature in having an unguided development in the universe. No matter what one makes of God et cetera, there has to be an innate guiding force in all matter or otherwise there is no logical explanation to what can make small cells begin to mutate into more advanced creations through evolution, i.e. there must be an intelligence within the cells and how advanced can the guiding force be of one silly little cell to know which path to take in evolution? The answer is that to claim there is no guiding force in the world is one of the most illogical claims one can make. I thought someone educated like a scholar in science would have a better intelligence to adhere to more sound logic. However I think the person is affected by what others have said and to store information is not really a virtue as all of us can. The claim in question is more or less stupid to make as it is irrational.
I believe in God, but I believe in evolution. There is no conflict between them.
It baffles the mind that human beings can be so emotional and biased. That includes myself of course, although I'm trying hard not to be like that anymore.
Good. You must stand firm against the primitive instinct of the body and keep a high level of logic. We have to learn to be in the image of God, not of the bodily.
If I thought that there was strong proof for atheism and it made more sense, I would absolutely become an atheist, but I see no evidence for such a belief (and yes, atheism is definitely a religion).
I have reflected a lot over the years. on all possibilities, but in the end the God answer always came out more plausible. Moreover I could not find a logical explanation to things with the atheist model. After that my insight has grown and I know a lot more about what God is, i.e. God's nature. I know now what I did not know much about at all before.
I have no reason to assume that a bunch of atoms created and organized this whole universe and all life in it all on their own... that sounds more like a fairy-tale or religion than science.
Yes, innately there has to be a sophisticated intelligence that drives the evolution forward. How can the cells containing no sophisticated "thinking power" know whatever direction to make in terms of development?
How could randomness, no background intelligence at all, know that certain matter to place itself to initiate the process that occurs within stars like our sun in order to produce sunlight which gives warmth to solar systems? Do the atheists claim that matter just exploded in big bang in some coincidence to form the stars to have a function like them?
How did no background intelligence know how to develop a creature in order for it to fly, e.g. birds? It is one of the silliest examples, like some primitive cells can develop a flying machine.
Another example, what matter did know how to create iron? All the molecules with their atoms, the compositions are too complex to be coincidental.
Be well
Amenuel -
No matter what one makes of God et cetera, there has to be an innate guiding force in all matter
Peace Man of Faith,
Excellent, this sounds very logical and much closer to the truth. Of course, one could argue whether that guiding force in matter is part of God Himself or not, but the basic argument is very convincing. It does not seem possible to debunk your above argument with science..
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Hello Recluse,
Yes, but humans who revere and let their body Homo Sapiens influence them are not able to think so abstractly, e.g. logically. I think logic is a great key into understanding. I almost feel like the Vulcan in Star Trek... hehe.
Well, through ascension you will sense the primitive nature of people around you who have not managed to get out of their little shell. Even so-called educated people are not so smart, even if they have stored a lot of concrete information.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace to all,
I've seen older posts by some of our members who argued that God is fully part of this universe...
OK, but what about the Big Bang? Prior to the Big Bang there was no universe, no matter, no atoms...
Does that mean God didn't exist either before the Big Bang took place, or is my understanding of the Big Bang flawed????
Panentheism
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism
God interpenetrates every part of the universe and extends, timelessly and spacelessly beyond itPantheism God = Universe
Panentheism God = Universes + MoreBig Bang is the beginning of THIS time and THIS space.
Prior to big bang there was no THIS time or THIS space..Yet there might be 1,0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (it's actually unlimited) other universes each with their own TIME and their own SPACE.
And God (The True God that is) control all of it.He has no enemy in any of those universes or anything in any of those universe happened without in accordance to his knowing or his plan.
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Well, through ascension you will sense the primitive nature of people around you who have not managed to get out of their little shell. Even so-called educated people are not so smart, even if they have stored a lot of concrete information.
Be well
AmenuelHi Amenuel,
That is so true, because I've come across maybe thousands of well-educated but "dumb" people, lol. Apparently thinking logically without involving too much of your emotions and bias is very hard for humans.
Interestingly, when I look back at some of the things I said here on this forum a few years ago, I now feel ashamed.
I saw an idiotic response of mine in 2012 to our member Jafar about his views on the Qur'an, for example. My reply had nothing to do with logic or facts, but I reacted purely emotionally in a desperate attempt to "defend" the infallible Qur'an against "kuffar" like Jafar who dared to question the book. Humans are funny creatures, we are so insecure and weak ) Although this happened back in 2012, I would like to apologize to Jafar and ask for his forgiveness... rotfl )Peace,
?zcan
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Panentheism
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism
God interpenetrates every part of the universe and extends, timelessly and spacelessly beyond itPantheism God = Universe
Panentheism God = Universes + MoreBig Bang is the beginning of THIS time and THIS space.
Prior to big bang there was no THIS time or THIS space..Yet there might be 1,0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (it's actually unlimited) other universes each with their own TIME and their own SPACE.
And God (The True God that is) control all of it.He has no enemy in any of those universes or anything in any of those universe happened without in accordance to his knowing or his plan.
Thanks Jafar,
Panentheism makes much more sense to me..
I will check this out...
Peace,
?zcan
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As far as I am concerned the prefix pan means everything. I find the term Panentheism to be unnecessary personally. I have contemplated on it before. Pan- means that it incorporates everything/all no matter if it is plural or not, and/or another dimension or universe.
Panentheism, as I have interpreted the term, would create a differentiation between Rabb and whatever else but there is none, Being (Allah) is One, there is one Being, one image.
Be well
Amenuel -
Hi Amenuel,
That is so true, because I've come across maybe thousands of well-educated but "dumb" people, lol. Apparently thinking logically without involving too much of your emotions and bias is very hard for humans.
Interestingly, when I look back at some of the things I said here on this forum a few years ago, I now feel ashamed.
I saw an idiotic response of mine in 2012 to our member Jafar about his views on the Qur'an, for example. My reply had nothing to do with logic or facts, but I reacted purely emotionally in a desperate attempt to "defend" the infallible Qur'an against "kuffar" like Jafar who dared to question the book. Humans are funny creatures, we are so insecure and weak Although this happened back in 2012, I would like to apologize to Jafar and ask for his forgiveness... rotflPeace,
?zcan
The love of Supreme is Unconditional Love