Who was the first Muslim?
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There are contradictions in the Qur'an as to who was the "first Muslim".
According to Al-An'am 163, the first Muslim was prophet Muhammad.
According to Al-A'raf 143, the first Muslim was prophet Moses.
According to Ali Imran 67, the first Muslim was Abraham
Second problem;
What about Adam, Noah, Idris who lived in much earlier times, weren't they also Muslims?
Here are the three relevant verses;
"No partner has He. And this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims."
(According to this verse prophet Muhammed was the first Muslim)
"And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "My Lord, show me that I may look at You." said, "You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers."
(According to this verse prophet Moses was the first Muslim)
"Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim . And he was not of the polytheists.
(According to this verse Abraham was the first Muslim)
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If a diary from your house informs us that
"Recluse was the first born."
That should imply that you are the first born human being on the planet?
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If a diary from your house informs us that
"Recluse was the first born."
That should imply that you are the first born human being on the planet?
I thought Islam was universal and for mankind as a whole, not only for Semitic people? Regardless, I don't believe that Islam has anything to do with belief. Monotheism has nothing to do with salvation, it doesn't make sense. Who was the first Bolivian Muslim? Who was the first Japanese Muslim, or Vietnamese Muslim? See, no matter how you rationalize, it does not change the fact that the core Islamic doctrine is irrational and ridiculous. According to the Qur'an all Japanese are going to an eternal Hellfire. Do you believe that claim of the Qur'an? Does it make sense to you?
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Recluse,
Unfortunately Muslims talk that away by claiming the argument is only valid for people who have had the chance to be in contact with Quran. But obviously it does not make sense as that means they still go to Hell because they are not believers.
Indirectly it means it would be better to never have encountered Quran for any person as they will be unharmed, according to the logic, since you do not have to do the braindead ritual and other meaningless activities.
Be well
Amenuel -
So Noah was not muslim you mean? Oh hell, that crazy old man was surely broken in spirit... or?
It is lame to start at Abraham bringing islam, he was rather among those who were muslim.
What is true is Abraham made the first assembly devoted to spreading islam, but since muslim is a state of being he surely cannot have been the first one being muslim... unless you make Noah a crazy old man as I wrote above.
Listen to what you are thinking, please. Find soundness concerning your faith.
Be well
Amenuel -
Recluse,
Unfortunately Muslims talk that away by claiming the argument is only valid for people who have had the chance to be in contact with Quran. But obviously it does not make sense as that means they still go to Hell because they are not believers.
Yes MoF, they claim that those who come into contact with the Qur'an must accept it. But if they themselves had been born in Vietnam, they too wouldn't accept the religion of a foreign culture either. It's very hard for most people to abandon their own established traditions. I've tried to rationalize the Islamic doctrine in my mind for many years and it still doesn't make sense to me. Frankly, it is driving me nuts.
Indirectly it means it would be better to never have encountered Quran for any person as they will be unharmed, according to the logic, since you do not have to do the braindead ritual and other meaningless activities.
Be well
AmenuelYes, this is precisely what I have always wondered too.
Some people also claim that all people on earth know (in their heart) that there is one God, whether they have heard about the Qur'an or not. Does that make sense? If there are no better explanations than these, then how can we continue to believe in the divinity of the Qur'an? Because if you don't believe in this claim of the Qur'an that only Muslims go to Paradise then you are not a Muslim. I bet very few people here are Muslims )
Peace
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Salam Recluse
Try to understand the word Muslim without capital M and you will not find any contradiction in Quran.
Salam Novice,
Alright, let's do that; how many muslims ('m' with a small letter) are there in countries like Japan or South Korea. Are there just as many as in Saudi Arabia, Turkey or Pakistan? Why do we call Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Pakistan "Muslim countries"? Why not call Japan a Muslim country?
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Salam Novice,
Alright, let's do that; how many muslims ('m' with a small letter) are there in countries like Japan or South Korea. Are there just as many as in Saudi Arabia, Turkey or Pakistan? Why do we call Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Pakistan "Muslim countries"? Why not call Japan a Muslim country?
Peace Recluse, all
I think that you will be surprised about the number of peacemakers (muslimeen) on this planet. In fact, the peacemakers are the majority, and only some few troublemakers (mojremeen) are making all the troubles going around.
Most of people want to live peacefully, they do not look for troubles. The problems are coming from the few troublemakers who are trying their best to abuse the others. But fortunately, many good people are facing them successfully, else things would be much worse.
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And for the initial question, let's imagine that we are in a heated up discussion and things can get to hands. The best attitude is to step back and bring the discussion to a peaceful level by proclaiming that I am the first of the peacemakers, inviting the other parties to do the same as to proclaim that they want to make peace also. If not, then atleast the matter will be settled by force.
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And for the initial question, let's imagine that we are in a heated up discussion and things can get to hands. The best attitude is to step back and bring the discussion to a peaceful level by proclaiming that I am the first of the peacemakers, inviting the other parties to do the same as to proclaim that they want to make peace also. If not, then atleast the matter will be settled (by force?).
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And for the initial question, let's imagine that we are in a heated up discussion and things can get to hands. The best attitude is to step back and bring the discussion to a peaceful level by proclaiming that I am the first of the peacemakers, inviting the other parties to do the same as to proclaim that they want to make peace also. If not, then atleast the matter will be settled by force.
Peace someone,
Are you defining muslim as a 'peacemaker', i.e. everyone who wants peace, regardless of what they believe?
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Salam,
just wondering what benefits you are getting in contributing to this forum if any? Read through your history and seems that you don't find Quran to be divine anymore? Very interesting reading your posts from the past and seems that you are using arguments which you declared to be invalid.
For example, you came to the conclusion that Hadith should not be used to represent Quran, but now your arguments against the Quran are utilizing religious fervor defined in Hadith and not in Quran.
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I think Recluse is implying on things found even in a Quran interpretation detached from "hadith".
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Salam,
just wondering what benefits you are getting in contributing to this forum if any? Read through your history and seems that you don't find Quran to be divine anymore? Very interesting reading your posts from the past and seems that you are using arguments which you declared to be invalid.
For example, you came to the conclusion that Hadith should not be used to represent Quran, but now your arguments against the Quran are utilizing religious fervor defined in Hadith and not in Quran.
Salaam,
I'm just searching for truth, my previous beliefs and opinions were largely based on ignorance and blind faith. I had accepted a priori that the Qur'an cannot be questioned, and if there are any inconsistencies, it had to be because of my misunderstanding, but I eventually had a rude awakening.
Regardless if the Qur'an is divinely inspired or not, I can clearly see that this book - whether interpreted on its own, or with external sources, such as hadith, history and sunna - has many inconsistencies, illogical, irrational and immoral teachings. This may not be a problem for most people who prefer blind faith, but for me it is a huge problem. The questions asked in this thread are in my view very fundamental questions. If you have logical answers or explanations I would appreciate if you could share your knowledge with us instead of questioning people's intentions (at least that is how it came across, so I apologize if I misunderstood). My intention is to seek for truth, nothing else.
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Peace someone,
Are you defining muslim as a 'peacemaker', i.e. everyone who wants peace, regardless of what they believe?
Peace Recluse,
Yes, regardless of their beliefs, people can be defined by their attitude either they are peacemakers (muslimeen ) or troublemakers (mojremeen), and this since the beginning of humanity until now - the same criteria.
On the other hand, being of this or that religion is irrelevant because agression is still an abuse no matter what religious cover we want to give to it. Beliefs are only thoughts, but attitudes are made of actions that can benefit or harm others, and that is what counts in the end.
When one is inclined to the peace, all matters can be solved easily, even if they are complicated. But if one is looking for troubles, then the simplest disagreement can turn to a destructive war. Religion is only an excuse among others.
Peace
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Peace Recluse,
Yes, regardless of their beliefs, people can be defined by their attitude either they are peacemakers (muslimeen ) or troublemakers (mojremeen), and this since the beginning of humanity until now - the same criteria.
On the other hand, being of this or that religion is irrelevant because agression is still an abuse no matter what religious cover we want to give to it. Beliefs are only thoughts, but attitudes are made of actions that can benefit or harm others, and that is what counts in the end.
When one is inclined to the peace, all matters can be solved easily, even if they are complicated. But if one is looking for troubles, then the simplest disagreement can turn to a destructive war. Religion is only an excuse among others.
Peace
Peace,
That belief system would be perfectly logical and acceptable, although I'm not sure if that is what the Qur'an really says.
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Peace Recluse.
I disagree with you here,quote
Regardless if the Qur'an is divinely inspired or not, I can clearly see that this book - whether interpreted on its own, or with external sources, such as hadith, history and sunna - has many inconsistencies, illogical, irrational and immoral teachings. This may not be a problem for most people who prefer blind faith, but for me it is a huge problem....
May be according to your understanding/others interpretations...
I also was curious to find out what Qoran says, I had some reservations, I wanted to prove to others that this book is a lot of "fairy/ancient tales and nonsense". So far I have failed miserably.
Actually, after many years of studying it, I have found the opposite.
I have hence, submitted to the Lord of the universe,acknowledging that GOD authored Qoran.May be we are opposites and see things differently like
1624
When they are asked, "What do you think of these revelations from your Lord," they say, "Tales from the past."Or
1630
As for those who "Ittaquau", when they are asked, "What do you think of these revelations from your Lord," they say, "Good." For those who lead a righteous life, happiness, and the abode of the Hereafter is even better. What a blissful abode for the righteous.But of course it is a matter of each finding out for themselves.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
First one to surrender
So in a room full of humans
First one to surrender to effortless flow of caring love emanating beauty warmth fulfilment and be the truth distinguishing factual heartfelt resonance
Is the first 'muslim'Minimise hell
Maximise unconditional love/joy/nirvana/paradiseCorrect presentation of truth is free of distress (pain of iblees/satan) and allows eustress (happy growth)
If distress mixed with eustress we have mixing of imbalance and balance
If distress alone we have action of iblees/satan
If eustress alone we have truth
Distress = damage to body
Eustress = repair to body & everything withinThat is all it is.
Is there a Muslim nation? Yes, but let us see the confusion.There is no "Islam" or "Muslim" in that kind of vernacular context that is being used in that particular sense which is perceived as 'not-right', which presents a feeling of something-wrong in all witnesses, that is a pure fiction which keeps shirk with the pure, to mix truth with falsehood, by people consciously (munafiq) or unconsciously - miasm/thought-virus/dna-transcription-destructive-replicator-algorithm.
Then someone can play dress up, and then we have this strange paradox "why did this Muslim commit acts of evil?" "why did this Muslim cause suffering and hurt to someone else"? When quran is very clear, someone is only being 'muslim' when they act as that which frees from hunger, oppression, slavery of all kinds, trauma, and many more things, totally the freedom from the harshness of the knowledges of evil and of good, only enlightening which is releasing from fear into comfort, happiness, universal release, liberation
The true action of 'muslim' is the total release and liberation from all evil, all suffering, all hurt, true compassion for all beings, for all living things, for all that have existed in the past, present and all who will exist in the futureunderstanding the true nature of the cessation of sorrow leads to liberation from samskaras (imprints) and vasanas (habits/thoughtforms)
I.e. 10/10 life-preserving tasks to act upon
9/10 tasks acted upon = 1/10 tasks of shirk
10/10 tasks acted upon = muslim
9/10 tasks = almost muslimfirst muslim is first one to 1/1, 10/10, 100/100, 1000/1000
this is the Clear Light
there is no discussion, there is no witness to say "this behaviour is unjust" when muslim is truly evident
from the perspective of the akashic holographic record, the pure truth containing all points of view
there can only be justice in accordance with the fullness of the akashic holographic record from a timeless point of viewshirk = anything that evaluates to 'false' when examined with a true clear sight of unconditional love and effortless flow - as the universe itself is effortlessly flowing
beware all misconceptions
beware all distortions
beware all opinions
beware all mistakes
beware all untruth
only the supreme speaks truth
who is the supreme?
look within to the unborn, the eternal
then find the true reflection in the outer, the manifestlook from Allah's point of view then true nature will be seen of all
Namaste (I honour the light in you which is in all beings)
Salamun aleykum (Peace be upon you)
I close this message in unconditional lovesun
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Peace Recluse.
May be according to your understanding/others interpretations...
Peace,
Do you agree with the Qur'an that Islam is the only religion that God will accept (319), and that all non-Muslims will go to an eternal Hell?
So bilions of Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Thai, Cambodians and other "non-Muslims" go to an eternal Hell?
How do you account for this absurd threat in the Qur'an by the "Merciful God" ?
Who or what is a muslim?
This is the most fundamental question we should ask ourselves, the number one issue by far. Of course, I could also give you numerous verses about numerous issues that are inconsistent and incompatible.