Who was the first Muslim?
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So Noah was not muslim you mean? Oh hell, that crazy old man was surely broken in spirit... or?
It is lame to start at Abraham bringing islam, he was rather among those who were muslim.
What is true is Abraham made the first assembly devoted to spreading islam, but since muslim is a state of being he surely cannot have been the first one being muslim... unless you make Noah a crazy old man as I wrote above.
Listen to what you are thinking, please. Find soundness concerning your faith.
Be well
Amenuel -
Recluse,
Unfortunately Muslims talk that away by claiming the argument is only valid for people who have had the chance to be in contact with Quran. But obviously it does not make sense as that means they still go to Hell because they are not believers.
Yes MoF, they claim that those who come into contact with the Qur'an must accept it. But if they themselves had been born in Vietnam, they too wouldn't accept the religion of a foreign culture either. It's very hard for most people to abandon their own established traditions. I've tried to rationalize the Islamic doctrine in my mind for many years and it still doesn't make sense to me. Frankly, it is driving me nuts.
Indirectly it means it would be better to never have encountered Quran for any person as they will be unharmed, according to the logic, since you do not have to do the braindead ritual and other meaningless activities.
Be well
AmenuelYes, this is precisely what I have always wondered too.
Some people also claim that all people on earth know (in their heart) that there is one God, whether they have heard about the Qur'an or not. Does that make sense? If there are no better explanations than these, then how can we continue to believe in the divinity of the Qur'an? Because if you don't believe in this claim of the Qur'an that only Muslims go to Paradise then you are not a Muslim. I bet very few people here are Muslims )
Peace
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Salam Recluse
Try to understand the word Muslim without capital M and you will not find any contradiction in Quran.
Salam Novice,
Alright, let's do that; how many muslims ('m' with a small letter) are there in countries like Japan or South Korea. Are there just as many as in Saudi Arabia, Turkey or Pakistan? Why do we call Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Pakistan "Muslim countries"? Why not call Japan a Muslim country?
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Salam Novice,
Alright, let's do that; how many muslims ('m' with a small letter) are there in countries like Japan or South Korea. Are there just as many as in Saudi Arabia, Turkey or Pakistan? Why do we call Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Pakistan "Muslim countries"? Why not call Japan a Muslim country?
Peace Recluse, all
I think that you will be surprised about the number of peacemakers (muslimeen) on this planet. In fact, the peacemakers are the majority, and only some few troublemakers (mojremeen) are making all the troubles going around.
Most of people want to live peacefully, they do not look for troubles. The problems are coming from the few troublemakers who are trying their best to abuse the others. But fortunately, many good people are facing them successfully, else things would be much worse.
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And for the initial question, let's imagine that we are in a heated up discussion and things can get to hands. The best attitude is to step back and bring the discussion to a peaceful level by proclaiming that I am the first of the peacemakers, inviting the other parties to do the same as to proclaim that they want to make peace also. If not, then atleast the matter will be settled by force.
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And for the initial question, let's imagine that we are in a heated up discussion and things can get to hands. The best attitude is to step back and bring the discussion to a peaceful level by proclaiming that I am the first of the peacemakers, inviting the other parties to do the same as to proclaim that they want to make peace also. If not, then atleast the matter will be settled (by force?).
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And for the initial question, let's imagine that we are in a heated up discussion and things can get to hands. The best attitude is to step back and bring the discussion to a peaceful level by proclaiming that I am the first of the peacemakers, inviting the other parties to do the same as to proclaim that they want to make peace also. If not, then atleast the matter will be settled by force.
Peace someone,
Are you defining muslim as a 'peacemaker', i.e. everyone who wants peace, regardless of what they believe?
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Salam,
just wondering what benefits you are getting in contributing to this forum if any? Read through your history and seems that you don't find Quran to be divine anymore? Very interesting reading your posts from the past and seems that you are using arguments which you declared to be invalid.
For example, you came to the conclusion that Hadith should not be used to represent Quran, but now your arguments against the Quran are utilizing religious fervor defined in Hadith and not in Quran.
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I think Recluse is implying on things found even in a Quran interpretation detached from "hadith".
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Salam,
just wondering what benefits you are getting in contributing to this forum if any? Read through your history and seems that you don't find Quran to be divine anymore? Very interesting reading your posts from the past and seems that you are using arguments which you declared to be invalid.
For example, you came to the conclusion that Hadith should not be used to represent Quran, but now your arguments against the Quran are utilizing religious fervor defined in Hadith and not in Quran.
Salaam,
I'm just searching for truth, my previous beliefs and opinions were largely based on ignorance and blind faith. I had accepted a priori that the Qur'an cannot be questioned, and if there are any inconsistencies, it had to be because of my misunderstanding, but I eventually had a rude awakening.
Regardless if the Qur'an is divinely inspired or not, I can clearly see that this book - whether interpreted on its own, or with external sources, such as hadith, history and sunna - has many inconsistencies, illogical, irrational and immoral teachings. This may not be a problem for most people who prefer blind faith, but for me it is a huge problem. The questions asked in this thread are in my view very fundamental questions. If you have logical answers or explanations I would appreciate if you could share your knowledge with us instead of questioning people's intentions (at least that is how it came across, so I apologize if I misunderstood). My intention is to seek for truth, nothing else.
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Peace someone,
Are you defining muslim as a 'peacemaker', i.e. everyone who wants peace, regardless of what they believe?
Peace Recluse,
Yes, regardless of their beliefs, people can be defined by their attitude either they are peacemakers (muslimeen ) or troublemakers (mojremeen), and this since the beginning of humanity until now - the same criteria.
On the other hand, being of this or that religion is irrelevant because agression is still an abuse no matter what religious cover we want to give to it. Beliefs are only thoughts, but attitudes are made of actions that can benefit or harm others, and that is what counts in the end.
When one is inclined to the peace, all matters can be solved easily, even if they are complicated. But if one is looking for troubles, then the simplest disagreement can turn to a destructive war. Religion is only an excuse among others.
Peace
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Peace Recluse,
Yes, regardless of their beliefs, people can be defined by their attitude either they are peacemakers (muslimeen ) or troublemakers (mojremeen), and this since the beginning of humanity until now - the same criteria.
On the other hand, being of this or that religion is irrelevant because agression is still an abuse no matter what religious cover we want to give to it. Beliefs are only thoughts, but attitudes are made of actions that can benefit or harm others, and that is what counts in the end.
When one is inclined to the peace, all matters can be solved easily, even if they are complicated. But if one is looking for troubles, then the simplest disagreement can turn to a destructive war. Religion is only an excuse among others.
Peace
Peace,
That belief system would be perfectly logical and acceptable, although I'm not sure if that is what the Qur'an really says.
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Peace Recluse.
I disagree with you here,quote
Regardless if the Qur'an is divinely inspired or not, I can clearly see that this book - whether interpreted on its own, or with external sources, such as hadith, history and sunna - has many inconsistencies, illogical, irrational and immoral teachings. This may not be a problem for most people who prefer blind faith, but for me it is a huge problem....
May be according to your understanding/others interpretations...
I also was curious to find out what Qoran says, I had some reservations, I wanted to prove to others that this book is a lot of "fairy/ancient tales and nonsense". So far I have failed miserably.
Actually, after many years of studying it, I have found the opposite.
I have hence, submitted to the Lord of the universe,acknowledging that GOD authored Qoran.May be we are opposites and see things differently like
1624
When they are asked, "What do you think of these revelations from your Lord," they say, "Tales from the past."Or
1630
As for those who "Ittaquau", when they are asked, "What do you think of these revelations from your Lord," they say, "Good." For those who lead a righteous life, happiness, and the abode of the Hereafter is even better. What a blissful abode for the righteous.But of course it is a matter of each finding out for themselves.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
First one to surrender
So in a room full of humans
First one to surrender to effortless flow of caring love emanating beauty warmth fulfilment and be the truth distinguishing factual heartfelt resonance
Is the first 'muslim'Minimise hell
Maximise unconditional love/joy/nirvana/paradiseCorrect presentation of truth is free of distress (pain of iblees/satan) and allows eustress (happy growth)
If distress mixed with eustress we have mixing of imbalance and balance
If distress alone we have action of iblees/satan
If eustress alone we have truth
Distress = damage to body
Eustress = repair to body & everything withinThat is all it is.
Is there a Muslim nation? Yes, but let us see the confusion.There is no "Islam" or "Muslim" in that kind of vernacular context that is being used in that particular sense which is perceived as 'not-right', which presents a feeling of something-wrong in all witnesses, that is a pure fiction which keeps shirk with the pure, to mix truth with falsehood, by people consciously (munafiq) or unconsciously - miasm/thought-virus/dna-transcription-destructive-replicator-algorithm.
Then someone can play dress up, and then we have this strange paradox "why did this Muslim commit acts of evil?" "why did this Muslim cause suffering and hurt to someone else"? When quran is very clear, someone is only being 'muslim' when they act as that which frees from hunger, oppression, slavery of all kinds, trauma, and many more things, totally the freedom from the harshness of the knowledges of evil and of good, only enlightening which is releasing from fear into comfort, happiness, universal release, liberation
The true action of 'muslim' is the total release and liberation from all evil, all suffering, all hurt, true compassion for all beings, for all living things, for all that have existed in the past, present and all who will exist in the futureunderstanding the true nature of the cessation of sorrow leads to liberation from samskaras (imprints) and vasanas (habits/thoughtforms)
I.e. 10/10 life-preserving tasks to act upon
9/10 tasks acted upon = 1/10 tasks of shirk
10/10 tasks acted upon = muslim
9/10 tasks = almost muslimfirst muslim is first one to 1/1, 10/10, 100/100, 1000/1000
this is the Clear Light
there is no discussion, there is no witness to say "this behaviour is unjust" when muslim is truly evident
from the perspective of the akashic holographic record, the pure truth containing all points of view
there can only be justice in accordance with the fullness of the akashic holographic record from a timeless point of viewshirk = anything that evaluates to 'false' when examined with a true clear sight of unconditional love and effortless flow - as the universe itself is effortlessly flowing
beware all misconceptions
beware all distortions
beware all opinions
beware all mistakes
beware all untruth
only the supreme speaks truth
who is the supreme?
look within to the unborn, the eternal
then find the true reflection in the outer, the manifestlook from Allah's point of view then true nature will be seen of all
Namaste (I honour the light in you which is in all beings)
Salamun aleykum (Peace be upon you)
I close this message in unconditional lovesun
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Peace Recluse.
May be according to your understanding/others interpretations...
Peace,
Do you agree with the Qur'an that Islam is the only religion that God will accept (319), and that all non-Muslims will go to an eternal Hell?
So bilions of Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Thai, Cambodians and other "non-Muslims" go to an eternal Hell?
How do you account for this absurd threat in the Qur'an by the "Merciful God" ?
Who or what is a muslim?
This is the most fundamental question we should ask ourselves, the number one issue by far. Of course, I could also give you numerous verses about numerous issues that are inconsistent and incompatible.
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Peace Recluse.
Yes I agree with Qoran.Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts ( Any religion...); anyone who (1) believes in God, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
i.e they are all "Muslims".
"Islam is a spiritual state of mind and not a title of a religion that belongs to a specific group of people. ANYONE who submits and serves the one God without idolizing other entities is a "Muslim".This state of mind basically conforms with God?s one and only message He delivered to man-kind through all of His messengers since man existed; serve/worship God alone and avoid idolatry.
Based on that, one can safely conclude that the message of Islam has been in existence way before the time of prophet Muhammad and way before Qoran.
All God?s messengers, since the first prophet/messenger, devoted their lives service and worship to God alone and were" Muslimeen"to Him alone.
Here are some verses clarifying this understanding
We did not send any messenger before you except with the inspiration "There is no god except Me; you shall serve/worship Me alone."We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall serve/worship God, and avoid idolatry....."
Recite for them the history of Noah. He said to his people, "O my people, if you find my position and my reminding you of God's revelations too much for you, then I put my trust in God. You should get together with your leaders, agree on a final decision among yourselves, then let me know it without delay.
"If you turn away, then I have not asked you for any wage. My wage comes from God. I have been commanded to be a Muslim."Had you witnessed Jacob on his death bed; he said to his children, "What will you serve/ worship after I die?" They said, "We will serve/worship your god; the god of your fathers Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac; the one GOD. To Him we are Muslimeen."
When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards God?" The disciples said, "We are God's supporters; we believe in God, and bear witness that we are Muslimeen."
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace,
Do you agree with the Qur'an that Islam is the only religion that God will accept (319), and that all non-Muslims will go to an eternal Hell?
So bilions of Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Thai, Cambodians and other "non-Muslims" go to an eternal Hell?
How do you account for this absurd threat in the Qur'an by the "Merciful God" ?
Who or what is a muslim?
This is the most fundamental question we should ask ourselves, the number one issue by far. Of course, I could also give you numerous verses about numerous issues that are inconsistent and incompatible.
Seems like your "number one issue" is not based on Quran
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muslim-or-hell.htm
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/islam-religion.html
http//www.free-minds.org/mumins -
Do you agree with the Qur'an that Islam is the only religion that God will accept (319), and that all non-Muslims will go to an eternal Hell?
So bilions of Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Thai, Cambodians and other "non-Muslims" go to an eternal Hell?
The fact is that there are no verses in the Quran which states that those who follow other religions/faiths/beliefs will go to hell.
Let me share a quote with you from another thread.
...the Quran is the only spiritual/sacred text in the world that states that the followers of other religions can be rewarded with paradise in the next life. This suggests that islam is a just, tolerant and inclusive deen (way of life). In my view, islam is the most just, tolerant and inclusive deen (way of life) in the world. The teachings of the Quran seems to surpass the teachings of all other spiritual/sacred texts in the world. I would like to share some of the teachings of the Quran in this post.
Some of the teachings of the Quran
- Freedom of religion (2256, 554, 1340, 1829, 5045, 763).
- Freedom of preaching by other religions (6148, 2764).
- Right of all religions to have their places of worship free and protected (2240).
- Right given to every religion to prove it is best in doing good works (54.
- Right to ask questions about Islam (96).
- Right of non-Muslims not to be subjected to offence (3186, 6108, 7310).
- Right to express ones national/racial identity, culture and language (3022, 4913).
- People are only responsible of their own actions (1715).
- Blind following of leaders and tradition has been condemned (2170, 3367, 543).
- Freedom of speech (4140, 2013).
- The majority are not necessarily on the right path (6116).
- Followers of other religions can be rewarded with paradise in the next life (262, 3313-315, 3199).
Reference
"Islam and Human Rights" by Zahid Aziz
Also, see this post.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608067.msg380257#msg380257
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Peace Recluse.
Yes I agree with Qoran.Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts ( Any religion...); anyone who (1) believes in God, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
i.e they are all "Muslims".
"Islam is a spiritual state of mind and not a title of a religion that belongs to a specific group of people. ANYONE who submits and serves the one God without idolizing other entities is a "Muslim".
Peace good logic,
In that case, I totally disagree with the Qur'an.....
So the "merciful" God will burn billions of Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Shintoists and others in an eternal Hell? I completely reject the idea of such a psychopathic, immoral, unjust, narcissistic, angry, insane and evil God. The Qur'an, if it really says and means exactly this, is most definitely a man-made book, and the God of the Qur'an can not be the true Creator of the universe. My own God-given conscience tells me this can not be the case.
I believe deism is the future for mankind...
Peace
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Have you ever visited Nepal, Recluse ?
Last year I had the fortune. On my first day at Pokhara, early at dawn our travel guide drove us to Sangarkot viewing site. I was wondering what the big deal was. I learned it soon enough. As the tip of the somber Annapurna range suddenly took a glorious golden hue at the moment of day-break, it was a spectacle to behold! Hardly have I ever seen such a marvel of nature with my own eyes. To experience this marvel one has to keep his eyes open for the exact moment of sunrise.
http//bengivenni.smugmug.com/WhatsThis/Aloka-Lekhana/fish-tail-peak/916306489_gTahK-L.jpg
(Photo credit https//alokalekhana.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/annapurna-peak-at-sunrise/)Have you seen the marvel of the first day-break, Recluse?
By the ?first? day break I do not mean the first ever day-break in the history of the earth. The ?first day-break? happens every time the daylight outstretches the darkness of night. And every time it is a marvel.
Don?t get too weary of the night my friend, for the night gets darkest right before the dawn.
May Allah guide us to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman
