Allah stoning devils with stars?

HP_TECH

I already gave you now 3 times how I read/understand it and also why I think so, so not sure what kind of explaining/understanding you expecting from me.

My understanding may be wrong but it is for sure better than yours or Recluses. And if you or someone else comes with a better alternative with better arguments then I am not proud/afraid/whatever to throw away my understanding and go for the better one.

I have indicated exactly that here. How can you deny the evidence shown by the following or did you just give a blind eye to them?? ???

Root concordance it is used in similar ways in many other ayaats
Project Root List (it has ties with Wakas and this website) the root meanings provided are suggestive of "projectiles" i.e. objects or stones being thrown/cast
Free-minds Translation
Corpus.Quran.com Translation
Lane's Lexicon

How can you deny what I just posted?

spodacus

Salam, those are valid points. Should we also include the verse which talks about how Allah uses allegorical description for his servants to reflect upon? Also the verse which says that the same allegorical description can also be twisted by those with disease in their hearts?

I have indicated exactly that here. How can you deny the evidence shown by the following or did you just give a blind eye to them?? ???

Root concordance it is used in similar ways in many other ayaats
Project Root List (it has ties with Wakas and this website) the root meanings provided are suggestive of "projectiles" i.e. objects or stones being thrown/cast
Free-minds Translation
Corpus.Quran.com Translation
Lane's Lexicon

How can you deny what I just posted?

HP_TECH

Salam, those are valid points. Should we also include the verse which talks about how Allah uses allegorical description for his servants to reflect upon? Also the verse which says that the same allegorical description can also be twisted by those with disease in their hearts?

There is nothing allegorical here.. just stop denying.

You think this is the only ayaat? It is spelled out in MANY words and MANY other chapters stop rejecting folks.

I really cannot decide about those of you arguing these clear facts. I am not sure whether

you are not rightly guided because you follow Western modernism hence neoprogressive islam
there is disease within in your hearts
you are misinformation agents
"trolling shills" (for lack of a better term)
just not familiar with the Quran after all

Recluse

Recluse I would say I acknowledge that to be the TRUTH.
Although it is not stoning as in rocks, but rather it is shooting stars, comets, asteroids which are all heavenly projectiles that are pelted. They appear as luminous stars in the night sky precipitating to the earth or showering down, hence Meteor showers.

This only shows that you have chosen to replace your God-given reason with blind faith like billions of Christians and Muslims.

This is very comforting and easy to do. The problem is there are hundreds of other verses in the Qur'an that are scientifically and logically impossible.

Recluse

@ Recluse

If someone has bad intention, I think it is not hard for him/her to find the way to attack/criticize the Qur'an.

For example, challenging the people in this forum to explain chapter 18, verse 86 & verse 90.

In my opinion, putting such verses into this forum and challenge the members to explain those and then seeing the responses/answers - this method might give hint to recognize hypocrites... so, I suppose what you did (criticizing the Qur'an) could cause certain 'advantage' (but not for you).

For your own good, I think you should respect each verse in the Qur'an (whether you already understand it or not) and give yourself enough time to apply in your life the lessons that you already understand from the Qur'an and see for yourself whether applying them change you to be a better person or not, whether you 'see' more clearly or not, etc (other good things).

I prefer to use myself as an object of experiment to test the truth of the Qur'an. So far I have felt/received the benefits. Praise be to Allah.

Peace.

More empty words and accusations, I don't have any "bad intentions", but you have blind faith, which is the problem

I don't have any "disease in my heart" either like someone else claimed..

These are "verses" to frighten and prevent people from using their God-given reason, they were meant to terrorize you...

Peace

huruf

I love it when you psychoanalyse us for free, Recluse, you put so much passion and emotion into it, that we can't help feeling grateful.

Salaam

Recluse

Recluse,

Yeah right, the passage does not say that.
Be well
Amenuel

That is just your claim.

Peace

huruf

There is nothing allegorical here.. just stop denying. )

You think this is the only ayaat? It is spelled out in MANY words and MANY other chapters stop rejecting folks.

I really cannot decide about those of you arguing these clear facts. I am not sure whether

you are not rightly guided because you follow Western modernism hence neoprogressive islam
there is disease within in your hearts
you are misinformation agents
"trolling shills" (for lack of a better term)
just not familiar with the Quran after all

HP, I see that you hand condemnation right and left, but I have looked carefully through all the thread to see what you understand of those ayas and I have not seen any statement of yours with such undertanding, so can you tell what you get from those ayas.

Salaam

Recluse

I love it when you psychoanalyse us for free, Recluse, you put so much passion and emotion into it, that we can't help feeling grateful.

Salaam

I'm being psychoanalyzed myself for free as well.. as having a "disease in my heart" and having "bad intentions" )

But I know how you guys feel, I used to react exactly like you.

Peace

huruf

I'm being psychoanalyzed myself for free as well.. as having a "disease in my heart" and such...

But I know how you guys feel, I used to react exactly like you...

Peace

So you wre happy like us, that is great, we are all psychoanalised and hppy like in the old french song.

Salaam

Recluse

I'm much happier now, using my reason and conscience makes me feel happier. Instead of fearing eternal Hellfire.

huruf

So you are indeed capable of imagining an "eternal fire". You admire me. I find it impossible. I admire people who are so over capable of handling thing so much bigger than themselves...

May be they hve very good psychanalists fo get to such heights.

Salaam

imrankhawaja

Why are two completely different words (none of them being the usual one meaning star) translated as "stars" in this translation chosen by the poster.

Does anybody know here what he or she is talking about?

Imran is right. People should have at least the humility to acknowledge that they do not have an idea of what is being dealt with in those ayas.

But for the poster the overriding need to ridicule the Qur'an seems to trump everything.

huruf, peace

its all about the linking topics no doubt we are not sure about the full understanding of things which we have no control off,

and time by time God
gives us examples like mosquito bees, these small things yet the powerful side of them , asterioids are actually out of our control but these small things we cant even get our food back from bee if she take it, thats something God said in quran,

if humans really think they are able to point out mistakes and illogical things , infact they forget that the interpretation are from human beings , and human beings always learn by expperiments, and can do mistakes as well, its unjust to impose mistakes of humans to God.

examples of quran things are for human mind in a sense of simili/methapohrically , thats how humans beings understand things, but human being always very investigating , and from there the issues and misunderstanding starts, example is here nobody really knows what is the mechansim of asterioids/comets how they formed where they formed how they work? but what people like to critise on things which they have no power or knowledge offf, thats what happening here,

good_logic

Peace HP_TECH

Are you saying all Qoran verses are clear now?

1-Please describe what Jinns look like and where we can find them?

2- Did the people at the time of the prophet understand all the verses of Qoran?

What is clear in Qoran is how one redeems himself. The most important and relevant message,how to lead one s life is crystal clear. The rest we have to accept that some "future happenings" or some things that include other creations/dimensions may get clearer to us or to the future generations as GOD intends.
So ,brother what GOD does to Jinns ,how He makes the stars/black holes/...do to Jinns we can only speculate.
We know everything that GOD created has a purpose. We also know that certain limits are put on us and Jinns and other creations.
I believe in GOD. I believe GOD. I accept that certain verses in Qoran are still not clear to me yet. I patiently await the Lord s will to be done as GOD sees fit
.I am not going to pretend I understand everything. But I know GOD s word is the truth. I trust GOD and in GOD.
The future belongs to GOD. So I am waiting.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

excellent post, GL

thats what i think and beleive,

somewhere in quran allah also say the same thing, its Allah who know the real meanings of verses.

Allah explains the future things in the shape of examples , in reality these examples are worldy laws like water flow downward due to the law of gravity. time go forward , time law,

but can we understand if we reach in a place where we see the reverse of gravity and the reverse of time, we can understand when we will be assemble again it will like a broken glass join again in reverse motion, which is not really possible here, but for Allah everything is possible, so making us understand God claims things which seem impossible some time, but its impossible for us, not for God

examples are still here , a director of a movie can cut, organise, reset , the film the way he want, he can also see a result by forwarding it and he can also go back if some mistakes shoots happen, but he still cant see the ending nd beggings at same time even if he manage to use two cds on two different screens he can only focus on one at a time,

our problem starts when we try to compare our powers with God to understand God.

allah knnows what is before us and what will after us, 2255

spodacus

Salam, depends on if the use of the term "devils" is of physical entities or allegorical description of something else. If physical entities then surely it should be interpreted literally. But if allegorical for something else, then the ayaat should be interpreted allegorically as well.

There is nothing allegorical here.. just stop denying.

You think this is the only ayaat? It is spelled out in MANY words and MANY other chapters stop rejecting folks.

I really cannot decide about those of you arguing these clear facts. I am not sure whether

you are not rightly guided because you follow Western modernism hence neoprogressive islam
there is disease within in your hearts
you are misinformation agents
"trolling shills" (for lack of a better term)
just not familiar with the Quran after all

HP_TECH

Salam, depends on if the use of the term "devils" is of physical entities or allegorical description of something else. If physical entities then surely it should be interpreted literally. But if allegorical for something else, then the ayaat should be interpreted allegorically as well.

I understand your argument perfectly, but there are too many Signs/Ayaats that depict this scenario in other words which cannot be argued about as being allegorical.

Brothers I do not mean to sound condescending, but are you familiar with the Quran at all?

Or did you read the Quran once and expect to grasp its Message?

I converted approximately 3 years ago and I have not stopped Reading it since. I have read the entire Quran in many translations from traditionalists, to progressives, free-minds, word for word literal translations and corpus.quran.com. From cover to cover!
Once I began from 1 to 114 then from 114 all the way back. Everytime I commence the Book, I grasp concepts more clearly or understand things I priorly did not. The Quran is not something you read once and then discuss upon it!
It is the vital component of Salat. Uphold the Scripture my people!
You think my interpretation is regressive only because you are fundamentally unfamiliar with all the other Ayaats that convey this concept.
This is irrefutable stand with me not against me brothers

HP_TECH

If you are true Muslims and not hypocrites then do not reject the Signs of your Lord and do not seek to corrupt the Message with false progressive ideals. Only serve and worship ALLAH being sincere to Him in the deen. Do not attempt to serve two Masters. Your only Protector is Allah, therefore uphold the truth and support those who relay to you the Messages of Allah in Truth. I ask no payment from any of you. I have none to benefit from these discourses except the reward from Allah in the Hereafter. Hearken to my voice O believers!

1514-18

1514 Walaw fatahna AAalayhim baban mina alssama-i fathalloo feehi yaAArujoona
1515 Laqaloo innama sukkirat absaruna bal nahnu qawmun mashooroona
1516 Walaqad jaAAalna fee alssama-i buroojan wazayyannaha lilnnathireena
1517 Wahafithnaha min kulli shaytanin rajeemin
1518 Illa mani istaraqa alssamAAa faatbaAAahu shihabun mubeenun

1514 And (even) if We opened to them a gate from the heaven, and they were to continue therein (to) ascend,
1515 They would surely say "Only have been dazzled our eyes. Nay, we (are) a people bewitched."
1516 And verily We have placed in the heavens constellations and We have beautified it for the observers.
1517 And We have protected it from every devil accursed.
1518 Except (one) who steals the hearing, then follows him a burning flame clear.

2132

2132 WajaAAalna alssamaa saqfan mahfoothan wahum AAan ayatiha muAAridoon

2132 And We made the sky a roof protected. But they, from its Signs, turn away.

376-10

3706 Inna zayyanna alssamaa alddunya bizeenatin alkawakibi
3707 Wahifthan min kulli shaytanin maridin
3708 La yassammaAAoona ila almala-i al-aAAla wayuqthafoona min kulli janibin
3709 Duhooran walahum AAathabun wasibun
3710 Illa man khatifa alkhatfata faatbaAAahu shihabun thaqibun

3706 Indeed, We adorned the sky with an adornment (of) the stars.
3707 And (to) guard against every devil rebellious,
3708 Not they may listen to the assembly exalted, are pelted from every side,
3709 Repelled; and for them (is) a punishment perpetual,
3710 Except (him) who snatches (by) theft but follows him a burning flame, piercing.

4112

4112 Faqadahunna sabAAa samawatin fee yawmayni waawha fee kulli sama-in amraha wazayyanna alssamaa alddunya bimasabeeha wahifthan thalika taqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi

4112 Then He completed them (as) seven heavens in two periods and He revealed in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the heaven, with lamps and (to) guard. That (is the) Decree (of) the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.

675

Walaqad zayyanna alssamaa alddunya bimasabeeha wajaAAalnaha rujooman lilshshayateeni waaAAtadna lahum AAathaba alssaAAeeri

And certainly We have beautified the heaven nearest with lamps, and We have made them (as) missiles for the devils, and We have prepared for them punishment (of) the Blaze.

7201

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7212

7201 Qul oohiya ilayya annahu istamaAAa nafarun mina aljinni faqaloo inna samiAAna qur-anan AAajaban
7208 Waanna lamasna alssamaa fawajadnaha muli-at harasan shadeedan washuhuban
7209 Waanna kunna naqAAudu minha maqaAAida lilssamAAi faman yastamiAAi al-ana yajid lahu shihaban rasadan
7212 Wanna thananna an lan nuAAjiza Allaha fee al-ardi walan nuAAjizahu haraban

7201 Say, "It has been to me that listened a group of the jinn, and they said, "Indeed, we heard a Quran amazing,....
7208 ....And that we sought to touch the heaven but we found it filled (with) guards severe, and flaming fires.
7209 And that we used to sit there in positions for hearing, but (he) who listens now will find for him a flaming fire waiting.
7212 And that we have become certain that never we will cause failure (to) Allah in the earth and never we can escape Him (by) flight.

JavaLatte

I don't have any "bad intentions"

I don't trust you.

but you have blind faith,

If I don't use my reasoning, then most likely I don't accept the Qur'an.

I know for sure that I will not attain peace and happiness if I behave like you.

Insha'Allah, I'm not going to stop you, because I know that you have no power at all to misguide people, and I know that the true righteous people will not follow you.

I think that we will reap what we sow.

which is the problem

Problem for?

I don't have any "disease in my heart" either like someone else claimed..

How do you know?

These are "verses" to frighten

I know that there are verses to frighten.

and prevent people from using their God-given reason,

I think the Qur'an challenges the readers to think and ponder.

they were meant to terrorize you...

Probably.

I tend to think that humans need to be threatened by their Creator. As a human, I agree that my negative part should be minimized or even shut down.

I'm much happier now, using my reason and conscience makes me feel happier. Instead of fearing eternal Hellfire.

I think your posts don't show true happiness.

Peace.

JavaLatte

If you are true Muslims and not hypocrites then do not reject the Signs of your Lord and do not seek to corrupt the Message with false progressive ideals. Only serve and worship ALLAH being sincere to Him in the deen. Do not attempt to serve two Masters. Your only Protector is Allah, therefore uphold the truth and support those who relay to you the Messages of Allah in Truth. I ask no payment from any of you. I have none to benefit from these discourses except the reward from Allah in the Hereafter. Hearken to my voice O believers!

Brother, don't worry about it.

I am quite sure that the believers (I speak about the true believers) will not reject the signs or their Rabb.

But the question is? Is there any believer in this forum?

If I use the Qur'an as source/standard to recognize the muslims and the believers on this forum, then my thought currently, I still don't know if there are believers in FM, and about muslims, hmm, I suppose there are some muslims here, I hope so. Some or few? I cannot sure about it, but, there are few people here who I consider as muslims by seeing how they surrender to their Rabb and/or by seeing how they support their Rabb and/or how they behave toward the Qur'an.

I think there's one important basic key to recognize a muslim He/she behaves humble toward the message/lesson which come from their Rabb.

As for myself, I cannot say that I am a believer, because I think I am far below the believers described in the Qur,'an - but I hope I am a muslim, I hope at least I can be counted as muslim. If someday I return to my Creator, I hope He will accept me and forgive me.

Salam.