Women: what is not allowed during menstruation
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"So should be menstruation"?
When God revealed the Qur'an he must have been ignorant because he obviously did not remember to mention menstruation when he said was before salaat if you hav gone to relieve yourslef or had relations you must wash in order to pray salaat. He did forget, didn't He? Or is it that women are not important at all and therefore no need to mention anything concerning them.
And if it is a question of women being impure, why on earth at the end of the aya says
" For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." This pure and clean is not in feminine but in masculine or generic, that is, it does not refer to women, but to men or at most to both, but it is not to women. If the whole thing is a question of impurity of menses, then it should have been women the subject of purification.On the other hand it is absolutely rediculous to deduce from this aya that women are impure for praying, but that it is only when they are "purified" that their husbands cn approach them when precisely sexual relations is one of the things that require ritual washing.
I think that many people here are living in the ritual territories of judaism and not in the revelaed Qur'an.
Qur'an is not talmud nor ritualism. it is urity, real purity no ritualism.
Salaam
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"So should be menstruation"?
When God revealed the Qur'an he must have been ignorant because he obviously did not remember to mention menstruation when he said was before salaat if you hav gone to relieve yourslef or had relations you must wash in order to pray salaat. He did forget, didn't He? Or is it that women are not important at all and therefore no need to mention anything concerning them.
And if it is a question of women being impure, why on earth at the end of the aya says
" For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." This pure and clean is not in feminine but in masculine or generic, that is, it does not refer to women, but to men or at most to both, but it is not to women. If the whole thing is a question of impurity of menses, then it should have been women the subject of purification.On the other hand it is absolutely rediculous to deduce from this aya that women are impure for praying, but that it is only when they are "purified" that their husbands cn approach them when precisely sexual relations is one of the things that require ritual washing.
I think that many people here are living in the ritual territories of judaism and not in the revelaed Qur'an.
Qur'an is not talmud nor ritualism. it is urity, real purity no ritualism.
Salaam
Well said.
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what do you think is their state before they are purified/cleansed? I believe is impure.
Perhaps we can approach the argument using another route
For sake of argument, let's say they are in an impure "state" during menses. Your argument is
impure state ---> cannot uphold salat, read/touch Quran
56 mentions various things that require ablution, in other words, if you are XYZ do ablution then you can uphold salat etc.
Talks about ablution, a purification act that is required before pray. Now, if the women, according to is not pure and menstruation constantly keep the women in that state; will not help them purify and therefore they shouldn't be allowed to pray(recite/touch Quran by extension, my personal opinion).
56 cites being ill as one "state" that requires ablution in order to uphold the salat. They are still required to uphold the salat even if they are ill.
Does ablution eliminate their illness? Yes/No.
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Perhaps we can approach the argument using another route
For sake of argument, let's say they are in an impure "state" during menses. Your argument is
impure state ---> cannot uphold salat, read/touch Quran
56 mentions various things that require ablution, in other words, if you are XYZ do ablution then you can uphold salat etc.
56 cites being ill as one "state" that requires ablution in order to uphold the salat. They are still required to uphold the salat even if they are ill.
Does ablution eliminate their illness? Yes/No.
Well explained Wakas, I understand your approach and agree with it.
If I understand this correctly, there's no rule in the Quran, preventing a women from praying,touching/reciting the Quran, while in a state of menstruations.
I only came across one verse in the Quran that tells what to do when a woman is having her periods, verse ,which tells men not to approach them. Considering what you and many said earlier about something needing to be explicit in order for it to be applied, what does the verse refer to as it's not stating anything specific, it's simply saying to stay away from women,which can mean a variety of things.
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To purify anything does not mean that before it wa impure, it means simple it can be purer. God purifies prophets, does that mean that the were impure previously? No, it means God purifies them more, God purifies them for the purposeof being prophets.
And that is the question about purity. Women during ense are not impure,but it is impure for their emn to approach them and cause them inconvenience. Gd purifies 3isa's name, does that mean that the anme was impure?
to cleanse someone of somethig does not mean that there was nanything impure either ritually or spiritually about it.Women, when they get rid, clear of the menes women are purified for the business of men approaching them, not for any other business. When somethig or someone is purified is for something specific. A women may undergo a diet of purification for the purpose of getting pregnant. She is not impure, si es purifying for a task. A boxermay undergo ratment to get a body free of toxines. Is he impure before that, yes he is to a certain extent for the urpose of being a boser but not for any other purpose.
In a laboratory subtances of many kinds ar contantly urified, not because there is impurity in them universally bur for the purpose of using them for the obtention of whatever things we may want to obtain, and what is the fenomenon or the compound that we want to obtain determines whether the element is pure for that purpose or not.
So women with the menses are impure for what? Formen approaching them,not for anything else and it was uniquely about that that the prophet was asked, not about any theoretical univeral impurity for the holy holy rites.
Only God is pure. Everything else lives or exists in a state of relative purity or impurity. And whenn God praises purity He alway refers to moral purity, purity of motive, purity of purpose, something on which everybody, must always strive and will never become absolutely pure, but will, God willing, attain to greater purity.
Will not having mmenses bring women to greater purity. Definitely not, but the ending of the menses will make purer for the men to approach them.
Salaam
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If you read my replies earlier, you will notices that I have, multiple times, explained what I mean by being impure and I have highlighted the fact that when I said the word "impure", I don't mean it to be in bad way but it seems like you keep thinking that I mean it in a bad way.
Having said that, after Wakas explained, I understand that ablution doesn't stop a women with menses from getting purer.
However, the comment about men not approaching women during their menstruation on the verse doesn't explicitly mention that they have to stay away when it comes to intercourse; so how do you deduce that sexual intercourse is what is meant in that verse, as it can mean a variety of things such as
-Approaching them at all
-Not being in the same room
-Trying to touch them
-Talk to them.
and so on...Salaam
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The aya says that menses are a nuisance, so take it anyway you like, it amounts to do not be a nuisance to them when they do have already a nuisance with the menses. So just avoid whatever may inconvenience them, including sexual aproaches, since as far as I can see, those are not excluded and in fact get very near to the source of the inconvenience.
Salaam
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The aya says that menses are a nuisance, so take it anyway you like, it amounts to do not be a nuisance to them when they do have already a nuisance with the menses. So just avoid whatever may inconvenience them, including sexual aproaches, since as far as I can see, those are not excluded and in fact get very near to the source of the inconvenience.
Salaam
yes I am going to take it the way I like it as the above it's simply a contradiction of what you said earlier. In this aya, God doesn't EXPLICITLY say not to perform any sexual act on a women while she's having menses.
When God revealed the Qur'an he must have been ignorant because he obviously did not remember to mention menstruation..
Was God, in the verse , too shy to mention not approaching a women for sexual intercourse while she's on menses?
Peace NewFreeMind,
Stay away from a woman during her period because it is harmful ( ) 2/222
So the question becomes how is a woman's menstrual cycle harmful to a man
and or to a woman. hmm I think sometimes it's better to do your own researchactually it's not, research suggest that some women can find it uncomfortable and some can find it even more arousing during this period.
Additionally, if the woman does not find it uncomfortable, performing sexual acts it's not going to cause any issue.
Therefore, saying that menstrual cycle are harmful to a man is absurd (it can be uncomfortable to women but not harmful) -
yes I am going to take it the way I like it as the above it's simply a contradiction of what you said earlier. In this aya, God doesn't EXPLICITLY say not to perform any sexual act on a women while she's having menses.
Was God, in the verse , too shy to mention not approaching a women for sexual intercourse while she's on menses?
actually it's not, research suggest that some women can find it uncomfortable and some can find it even more arousing during this period.
Additionally, if the woman does not find it uncomfortable, performing sexual acts it's not going to cause any issue.
Therefore, saying that menstrual cycle are harmful to a man is absurd (it can be uncomfortable to women but not harmful)I said from the very beginning and it can be easily verified reading the aya, that God is not ordering women anything in this aya. As far as that goes, women can do as they please. Nothing on them, as free as the wind.
It is men that are ordered. They are ordered
"...keep away from the women during menstruation and do not get near them..."
You, Newfreemind, say
"God doesn't EXPLICITLY say not to perform any sexual act on a women"
If yu can explain to the gentlement how to perform sexual acts on a woman while keeping away from her and while not getting near her, I venture to predict that you will have a lot of thankful gentlemen for the tip.
On the other hand if what the Qur'an says does not have any sexual connotation (in spite of making physical contact impossible) it must inevitably have another connotation. Which is that connotation? Why should men avoid women and not gt near them while the menses. Woud it be something contagious? Would the women bite them? Would the blood splash them ?
Salaam
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I said from the very beginning and it can be easily verified reading the aya, that God is not ordering women anything in this aya. As far as that goes, women can do as they please. Nothing on them, as free as the wind.
It is men that are ordered. They are ordered
"...keep away from the women during menstruation and do not get near them..."
You, Newfreemind, say
"God doesn't EXPLICITLY say not to perform any sexual act on a women"
If yu can explain to the gentlement how to perform sexual acts on a woman while keeping away from her and while not getting near her, I venture to predict that you will have a lot of thankful gentlemen for the tip.
On the other hand if what the Qur'an says does not have any sexual connotation (in spite of making physical contact impossible) it must inevitably have another connotation. Which is that connotation? Why should men avoid women and not gt near them while the menses. Woud it be something contagious? Would the women bite them? Would the blood splash them ?Salaam
BOLD That was brought up because you made the verse about sexual intercourse with the following statement
So just avoid whatever may inconvenience them, including sexual aproaches, since as far as I can see, those are not excluded and in fact get very near to the source of the inconvenience.
UNDERLINEI have clearly asked a similar question previously on the assumptions that you made about men not approaching women for intercourse.
However, the comment about men not approaching women during their menstruation on the verse doesn't explicitly mention that they have to stay away when it comes to intercourse; so how do you deduce that sexual intercourse is what is meant in that verse, as it can mean a variety of things such as
-Approaching them at all
-Not being in the same room
-Trying to touch them
-Talk to them.
and so on...In the above, I asked the same thing... why is that you're assuming it has to be sexual intercourse when it's not explicitly said, it can also mean not approaching them at all, not talking to them or anything similar. However, you have emphasised on the act of sexual intercourse; I am simply confused as to why you choose this when it's not mentioned and according to your previous replies God can't be ignorant to forget to mention such things.
Salaam
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BOLD That was brought up because you made the verse about sexual intercourse with the following statement
UNDERLINEI have clearly asked a similar question previously on the assumptions that you made about men not approaching women for intercourse.
In the above, I asked the same thing... why is that you're assuming it has to be sexual intercourse when it's not explicitly said, it can also mean not approaching them at all, not talking to them or anything similar. However, you have emphasised on the act of sexual intercourse; I am simply confused as to why you choose this when it's not mentioned and according to your previous replies God can't be ignorant to forget to mention such things.
Salaam
About the list you write ofthings it could mean, it is your list, about excluding sexual relations from the entence I will say it again you cannot not get near the women if you do that, so you are already trespassing the command to keep off them and to not get near them. You do have to get near them if you are going to have intercourse. There is no way around that. It is not that I want this or that. In fact I could not care less, but in order to not include sexual intercourse (anybody can hardly get any nearer than that) the aya would have to be reformulated.
So there is no forgetting at all to mention sexual intercourse.it is already clear a it is, but if aproaching the women for sexual intercourse were allowed then it should have been explicitly mentionned. Because sexual intercourse is definitely getting as near the women as it gets and there is not way that you can get around that. Of all the other things you mentionned the question could still be open How near is it getting near?
As I also said before the thing can be simpler Dont bother them,don't inconvenience them, don't push them over, don't be a nuisance to them and that should of course include coming on them with sex demands.
This, like so many things in the Qur'an, are quite simple, matters of common sense, but must be mentionned because not everybody has as much common sense or is mindful of others' persons state of mind or temper.
Salaam
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If you read my replies earlier, you will notices that I have, multiple times, explained what I mean by being impure and I have highlighted the fact that when I said the word "impure", I don't mean it to be in bad way but it seems like you keep thinking that I mean it in a bad way.
Having said that, after Wakas explained, I understand that ablution doesn't stop a women with menses from getting purer.
However, the comment about men not approaching women during their menstruation on the verse doesn't explicitly mention that they have to stay away when it comes to intercourse; so how do you deduce that sexual intercourse is what is meant in that verse, as it can mean a variety of things such as
-Approaching them at all
-Not being in the same room
-Trying to touch them
-Talk to them.
and so on...Salaam
Hey, don't worry, don't have to explain every single word, I got your point and, well, indeed I think you have a point. I see the same root used to "purify" in 2.222 and 5.6. The Qur'an is all the time concerned about women and how to protect them, I believe God (Whounderstands what menstruation, pregnancy and birth are in all aspects spiritually, personally, psicologically and physically) is just making things eassier for us. However, connecting both verses... i don't see it means that we can not pray or that we are dirty, I read "You can take a rest, you woman, you manage so many things every single day". Think also about the hormonal madness during menstruation, He knows we need a rest. It's a gift to be a woman and a hard thing to be, so, girls, sit on the sofa and remember God from it as you want. Also keep your man away from you these days.... just as you need, don't you? Allah rocks
