Rawāsiya and Tamīda

[Wakas]

peace,

uq,

When a verb follows in the subjunctive mood and is marked as an accusative, it is best rendered into English as Lest because it indicates the intended prevention of the act.

Re intended prevention of the act

I noticed this in corpus
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=31&verse=10#(31101)

"lest it (might) shake..."

I wonder how strong a negation is "an" when the indication is "lest".

comrox,
I think the "it" refers to earth/land because of what follows in verse 3110, although perhaps theoretically it could refer to "stable mountain", bro uq may need to confirm.

[Comrox]

comrox,
I think the "it" refers to earth/land because of what follows in verse 3110, although perhaps theoretically it could refer to "stable mountain", bro uq may need to confirm.

Reading over the verses again, I feel that 1615 could theoretically refer to the mountains in the use of "it", but 2131 and 3110 I'm much less sure about.

1615 - "And He has cast in the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with you, and rivers and roads so that you may be guided."

2131 - "And We (have) placed in the earth firmly set mountains, lest it (should) shake with them, and We made therein broad passes (as) ways, so that they may (be) guided."

3110 - "He created the heavens without pillars that you see and has cast in the earth firm mountains lest it (might) shake with you and He dispersed in it from every creature. And We sent down from the sky water then We caused to grow therein of every kind noble."

With the use of "therein" in the later portions of 2131 and 3110, it seems clear that the "broad passes" in 2131 and "caused to grow" in 3110 are talking about the earth specifically, so it would make sense that the subject (earth) would be present throughout the entire verse.

But I still don't think the argument can be dismissed completely, not yet at least.

[good_logic]

Peace All.

In my opinion "it" can only mean Earth/land. the verses will make no sense if "it" referred to "Rawasia".

To establish "Rawasia" plural of "Raas" which in here means "Peaks/mountains" on earth "lest/to prevent the earth from "Tamida" with you.

Also "Tamida" does not mean shake! The word for shake is " zalzala" as in earthquake/shake.

Perhaps the Mountains are stabilising the earth when it is rotating so we do not feel the effect of tumbling/rolling with it?

GOD bless,
Peace.

[Bender]

I believe so. No one at that time had any knowledge of earthquakes that occurred but could not be felt. The "shaking with you" part of verse 1615 seems to prove to me that the only shaking that's supposed to be prevented is the kind that humans can definitely feel on the surface.

I believe the quran is a bit more universal than that.

[Comrox]

Peace Anoushirvan,

I apologize for taking so long to get back to you.

Peace Comrox,

I would say (2) and (4).
There are a lot of statements in Quran regarding Earth, Universe, and human creation that I consider to be scientifically inaccurate in our todays standards, not to say erroneous.

But I do not consider that they indicate that Quran is not from divine origine, contrary to Christians or atheists.

I've never heard someone say this before. I'm surprised.

Purpose of Quran is not teach science, but to teach concepts of the Kitab, i.e. eternal God's will for mankind.
Likewise a messenger was sent to humans under the form of a human, and not under the form of an angel, concepts of the Kitab came under the form of concepts that people already knew, not under the form of concepts nobody could understand in the 7th century.

It didn't make sense, and still doesn't, to teach people using scientific concepts they were not ready to accept, because these concepts weren't aligned with what they used to know.

I think I understand and agree with you here. You are definitely right that Qur'an was not meant to teach science and I am aware of this. I don't see the sense in teaching something that is so blatantly wrong when you could say it as it is. Wait a second... Are you saying that God purposefully included wrong scientific information in the Qur'an (by today's standards) because that limited or incorrect information was only what people understood of that time?

If you take for example these two verses

133 And He is the One who has spread out the land, and made in it stabilizers and rivers, and all the fruits He made in pairs. The night covers the day. In that are signs for a people who think.
1615 And He has cast onto the earth stabilizers so that it would not tumble with you, and rivers, and paths, perhaps you will be guided.

you will notice an opposition between stabilizers/moutains (rawsiya) and rivers (nahar).
Moutains represent solid faith, while rivers represent confusion the same word nahar also means tumult/chide in Arabic (see project root list).
Therefore you have a choice in your life follow tumultuous way (nahar) or follow God's path (subulan).

I'll let you analyse verses like this one
225 And give good news to those who believe and do good works that they will have estates with rivers (anhru) flowing beneath them....

Ah, I see. So you have a very allegorical and spiritual approach to even what appears to be the most concrete verses. I like it; fresh perspective. )

About 225... Without looking into the Arabic, and just looking at the English translations available, it seems those who believe and do good in this life shall be rewarded with flowing rivers... Flowing rivers represent calmness, an easy-going attitude, no rush, an endless cycle that balances itself as the river will always flow, life... Where there is moving water, there is life...

They are given fruit (represents reaping the rewards that they received from living a good life, I suppose?) that they feel they have already been given before (the believers were either granted blessings in this life by God's will, or they were able to recognize that blessings that already exist, that we already encounter regularly, but that too many people overlook, or another explanation). But perhaps this "fruit" is even better in the afterlife because it's been recognized, appreciated, and/or put to use in the first life.

Spouses are purified because our souls are cleansed and purified once we are free of the first life and we must begin anew again in the afterlife. )

I need to stop rambling randomly so late at night... fftopic

[huruf]

I appreciate the readiing as allegorical depiction, still I do nnot thhink the Qur'an contains any errors as far "science" is concerned. But the reader and writeers of tafsirs ad the translators do make mistakes traying to adapt the Qur'an to what the consider intelligible, makig oe time a mess of it, by the waym though I can't blame hem. It is a gigantic task wich at no time or line is easy. So may God bless any erson who undertakes such a dangerous task. And peopple let us not forget that translators are human and that we must also help by being consciietious at whatever level we study the Qur'an.

Salaam

[Comrox]

Peace huruf,

I appreciate the readiing as allegorical depiction, still I do nnot thhink the Qur'an contains any errors as far "science" is concerned. But the reader and writeers of tafsirs ad the translators do make mistakes traying to adapt the Qur'an to what the consider intelligible, makig oe time a mess of it, by the waym though I can't blame hem. It is a gigantic task wich at no time or line is easy. So may God bless any erson who undertakes such a dangerous task. And peopple let us not forget that translators are human and that we must also help by being consciietious at whatever level we study the Qur'an.

Salaam

Agreed. Thank you all again for your contributions on this thread. D I see it's not easy just trying to understand and come to a consensus on a few verses.

I read a very traditional Islamic article once about this same topic that we are discussing, and the author(s) said that 2788 refers to how mountains will be on the Day of Judgment... Basically saying that mountains are entirely fixed into the earth and will never move (or have ever moved) from just as they are now, until that Day... I couldn't believe it or agree with it. But to each their own. They believe and trust in it so that's not my concern. We all have our own understandings and I pray we will all be comfortable and firm in them (if we are not already). Allahu alam.

[Anoushirvan]

Peace huruf, Comrox,

There are a lot of statements in Quran regarding Earth, Universe, and human creation that I consider to be scientifically inaccurate in our todays standards, not to say erroneous.

But I do not consider that they indicate that Quran is not from divine origine, contrary to Christians or atheists.

I appreciate the readiing as allegorical depiction, still I do nnot thhink the Qur'an contains any errors as far "science" is concerned.

Firstly, science is not bound by any quranic agenda. Science works by establishing the theory that is the best corroborated by scientific, experimental facts. Whenever a new fact comes and contradicts the best established theory, that theory is dismissed, and new one that accounts for the new fact and the older ones is promoted.

So if you assert that Qur'an matches todays scientific theories, e.g. on geology, what shall you say tomorrow if those theories are invalidated ?
Seeking endorsment of Qur'an by science is not without danger.

Secondly, I find the quranic verses scientifically vague enough (when they are not obviously wrong) so that by twisting the meaning of the words, they can be made to match various theories. This is in contradiction with another key distinction of science where any scientific theory must be falsifiable, i.e., it must be able to make predications that can be proven to be wrong.

To my knowledge, no scientific theory has emerged from understanding quranic verses. This is a key observation, I believe, that indicates that Qur'an has never carried any precise scientific knowledge.

Wait a second... Are you saying that God purposefully included wrong scientific information in the Qur'an (by today's standards) because that limited or incorrect information was only what people understood of that time?

I don't think that. Muslims say that Qur'an is God's speech, but I don't recall any verse saying this like that. Instead, we find this

81.19. Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin
81.19 . That this is in truth the word of an honored messenger

And if you read surah 27, there is almost a surah inside the surah

2729 She said "O commanders, a noble letter has been delivered to me."
2730 "It is from Solomon, and it reads 'Bismillah ar-Rahman, ar-Rahim'"
2731 "'Do not be arrogant towards me and come to me as submitters'"

Like a quranic surah, Salomon's letter to queen of Sheba begins by a Bismillah, indicating Solomon conveyed God's message to the queen, yet its words are those of Solomon.

So Qur'an says that Qur'an words are the words of the messenger, not those of God. Then logically it conveys the mindset of the messenger. Therefore quranic revelation was to "dress" the concepts of the Kitab with the mindset of the messenger.

Suppose God send a messenger in 21th century. This messenger would convey God's message using the mindset of the 21th century.
This message would fundamentally be the same as that of the 7th century since there is no change in the Sunnah of Allah.
The messenger would perhaps rely on theories like quantum mechanics or general relativity to disclose God's will for mankind.

Yet, he will never be able to reveal any theory of the 23rd century. Such a theory is not created yet, nor the mindset that can disclose it.

Think of it Qur'an says that the messenger chosen by God was not the perfect man that traditional Islam tries to depict. So why would have the concepts used to carry God's will for mankind to be perfect ?

About 225... Without looking into the Arabic, and just looking at the English translations available, it seems those who believe and do good in this life shall be rewarded with flowing rivers... Flowing rivers represent calmness, an easy-going attitude, no rush, an endless cycle that balances itself as the river will always flow, life... Where there is moving water, there is life...

I don't think so.

.
2.25. Wabashshiri allatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati anna lahum jannatin tajree min tahtiha al-anharu
2.25 . And give good news to those who believe and do good works that they will have estates with rivers (anhru) flowing beneath them....

PRL shows for root nhr

= Nuun-ha-Ra = to cause stream to flow, repulse, reproach, flow abundantly, drive back, brow beat, chide, do in the day time, day, daytime, daylight hours (from dawn to dusk).

It doesn't seem to carry a positive meaning. On the contrary it carries the meaning of confusion, and unstability.
The imaginary (estates/jannatin) of the believers is above the confusion. That's what the expression "jannatin tajree min tahtiha al-anharu" means.
Believers are like rawsiya, fix and solid in their faith, and above confusion.

[huruf]

Peace huruf, Comrox,

Firstly, science is not bound by any quranic agenda. Science works by establishing the theory that is the best corroborated by scientific, experimental facts. Whenever a new fact comes and contradicts the best established theory, that theory is dismissed, and new one that accounts for the new fact and the older ones is promoted.

So if you assert that Qur'an matches todays scientific theories, e.g. on geology, what shall you say tomorrow if those theories are invalidated ?
Seeking endorsment of Qur'an by science is not without danger.

Secondly, I find the quranic verses scientifically vague enough (when they are not obviously wrong) so that by twisting the meaning of the words, they can be made to match various theories. This is in contradiction with another key distinction of science where any scientific theory must be falsifiable, i.e., it must be able to make predications that can be proven to be wrong.

To my knowledge, no scientific theory has emerged from understanding quranic verses. This is a key observation, I believe, that indicates that Qur'an has never carried any precise scientific knowledge.

I don't think that. Muslims say that Qur'an is God's speech, but I don't recall any verse saying this like that. Instead, we find this

81.19. Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin
81.19 . That this is in truth the word of an honored messenger

And if you read surah 27, there is almost a surah inside the surah

2729 She said "O commanders, a noble letter has been delivered to me."
2730 "It is from Solomon, and it reads 'Bismillah ar-Rahman, ar-Rahim'"
2731 "'Do not be arrogant towards me and come to me as submitters'"

Like a quranic surah, Salomon's letter to queen of Sheba begins by a Bismillah, indicating Solomon conveyed God's message to the queen, yet its words are those of Solomon.

So Qur'an says that Qur'an words are the words of the messenger, not those of God. Then logically it conveys the mindset of the messenger. Therefore quranic revelation was to "dress" the concepts of the Kitab with the mindset of the messenger.

Suppose God send a messenger in 21th century. This messenger would convey God's message using the mindset of the 21th century.
This message would fundamentally be the same as that of the 7th century since there is no change in the Sunnah of Allah.
The messenger would perhaps rely on theories like quantum mechanics or general relativity to disclose God's will for mankind.

Yet, he will never be able to reveal any theory of the 23rd century. Such a theory is not created yet, nor the mindset that can disclose it.

Think of it Qur'an says that the messenger chosen by God was not the perfect man that traditional Islam tries to depict. So why would have the concepts used to carry God's will for mankind to be perfect ?

I don't think so.

.
2.25. Wabashshiri allatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati anna lahum jannatin tajree min tahtiha al-anharu
2.25 . And give good news to those who believe and do good works that they will have estates with rivers (anhru) flowing beneath them....

PRL shows for root nhr

= Nuun-ha-Ra = to cause stream to flow, repulse, reproach, flow abundantly, drive back, brow beat, chide, do in the day time, day, daytime, daylight hours (from dawn to dusk).

It doesn't seem to carry a positive meaning. On the contrary it carries the meaning of confusion, and unstability.
The imaginary (estates/jannatin) of the believers is above the confusion. That's what the expression "jannatin tajree min tahtiha al-anharu" means.
Believers are like rawsiya, fix and solid in their faith, and above confusion.

You are not answering me of course. You are answering to your own idea of wht i may have said.

Here is what I said

I appreciate the readiing as allegorical depiction, still I do nnot thhink the Qur'an contains any errors as far "science" is concerned. But the reader and writeers of tafsirs ad the translators do make mistakes traying to adapt the Qur'an to what the consider intelligible, makig oe time a mess of it, by the waym though I can't blame hem. It is a gigantic task wich at no time or line is easy. So may God bless any erson who undertakes such a dangerous task. And peopple let us not forget that translators are human and that we must also help by being consciietious at whatever level we study the Qur'an.

If you have some vested interest in the Qur'an being vague or wrong on "science" or if you want to be a prophet of what somebody else is going to say if in the future this or that, really, I have better things to o than to get into that kind of senseless wranglings.

Salaam

[Bender]

You are definitely right that Qur'an was not meant to teach science and I am aware of this.

Quran is teaching truths not science.
One of the mistakes people make when studying the quran is subjecting the quran to science.
Science is how we observe the world, truths are how the world really is.

[uq]

Thank you for the info Comrox, your posts are thorough, and more importantly, referenced. I appreciate the effort you put into your posts.

Theoretically, the subject of could permissibly be either The earth or Firmly grounded .

However, there is a broad rule in Classical Arabic grammar that the subject of a verb, or a pronoun, refers to the nearest preceding noun that conforms with it in gender and number, but this is not a steadfast rule.

Nevertheless, I am of the view that the subject of is the earth.

[Comrox]

Peace all,

I don't think that. Muslims say that Qur'an is God's speech, but I don't recall any verse saying this like that. Instead, we find this

81.19. Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin
81.19 . That this is in truth the word of an honored messenger

And if you read surah 27, there is almost a surah inside the surah

2729 She said "O commanders, a noble letter has been delivered to me."
2730 "It is from Solomon, and it reads 'Bismillah ar-Rahman, ar-Rahim'"
2731 "'Do not be arrogant towards me and come to me as submitters'"

Like a quranic surah, Salomon's letter to queen of Sheba begins by a Bismillah, indicating Solomon conveyed God's message to the queen, yet its words are those of Solomon.

So Qur'an says that Qur'an words are the words of the messenger, not those of God. Then logically it conveys the mindset of the messenger. Therefore quranic revelation was to "dress" the concepts of the Kitab with the mindset of the messenger.

Huh. That's thought-provoking. I was trying to find a verse that directly says Qur'an is His exact words, but I could not. I think the continuous use of "I" and "We" has proved to many that this is directly God's Word. (Maybe someone else can find this verse or verses, if it exists?)

I remember a verse addressing how God speaks to humans, how He does not speak to anyone except by inspiration or behind a barrier; I would imagine from what you've written here that you think the prophet/messenger was simply inspired with a message to convey to his people/humankind. (And thus not inspired with the direct Word of God - Please correct me if my assumption is wrong. ))

Suppose God send a messenger in 21th century. This messenger would convey God's message using the mindset of the 21th century.

That is true and something more to ponder on. While God is beyond time and space, He can still influence us. I'm sure He has through people. ) (Reminds of the time-traveling scene in Interstellar, if anyone has seen that movie.)

This message would fundamentally be the same as that of the 7th century since there is no change in the Sunnah of Allah.
The messenger would perhaps rely on theories like quantum mechanics or general relativity to disclose God's will for mankind.

o That's so fascinating to try to comprehend.

Yet, he will never be able to reveal any theory of the 23rd century. Such a theory is not created yet, nor the mindset that can disclose it.

Think of it Qur'an says that the messenger chosen by God was not the perfect man that traditional Islam tries to depict. So why would have the concepts used to carry God's will for mankind to be perfect ?

Reminds me of the central message in all the time-traveling movies and media I've seen... You can't show yourself or change any events, because doing so can drastically affect your own future, as well as the future of those around you, and even the world. If these movies are any indication of human behavior, learning about future scientific developments could wreck havoc. At the very least, His natural balance of the world would be affected.

I don't think so.

.
2.25. Wabashshiri allatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati anna lahum jannatin tajree min tahtiha al-anharu
2.25 . And give good news to those who believe and do good works that they will have estates with rivers (anhru) flowing beneath them....

PRL shows for root nhr

= Nuun-ha-Ra = to cause stream to flow, repulse, reproach, flow abundantly, drive back, brow beat, chide, do in the day time, day, daytime, daylight hours (from dawn to dusk).

It doesn't seem to carry a positive meaning. On the contrary it carries the meaning of confusion, and unstability.
The imaginary (estates/jannatin) of the believers is above the confusion. That's what the expression "jannatin tajree min tahtiha al-anharu" means.
Believers are like rawsiya, fix and solid in their faith, and above confusion.

Thank you for the root definitions; I always forget that the "Project Root List" thread exists.

Interesting conclusions. I like your posts; very thoughtful. )

I wonder if there are any verses which speak of flowing streams for the believers that do not flow beneath them?

---

EDIT I'm sure Bender could have answered the above (as he is as smart as Google) but I am impatient so I just used Google. I looked through all the verses mentioned here http//www.quranindex.net/kelime.php?id=8652

In all of the verses speaking specifically about the hereafter, it seems that "rivers flowing beneath" is always mentioned. Good to know.

That being said, I have a question for you Anoushirvan about the first half of verse 4715

"Is the example of the Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of alcohol that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey..."

According to Qur'an Corpus, the "rivers" mentioned in the verse have the same root as the root you mentioned above (http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=nhr#(47157)).

It sounds like these rivers in 4715 are all good and positive for the believers. They're described as pure and delicious. eat So are these rivers also supposed to be understood negatively?

(Perhaps they are different rivers than the ones that are flowing beneath? Can we Qur'anically prove it either way? hmm)

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. )

Quran is teaching truths not science.
One of the mistakes people make when studying the quran is subjecting the quran to science.
Science is how we observe the world, truths are how the world really is.

I like that "Science is how we observe the world, truths are how the world really is." When I read verses about how man was created from mud, I don't find it difficult to carry on while keeping scientific thoughts out of my mind. Just this more particular subject, it seems, I struggle with blocking the science out. P Guess I'm weird like that.

Thank you for the info Comrox, your posts are thorough, and more importantly, referenced. I appreciate the effort you put into your posts.

Thank you for the compliment. ) I remember before I joined this forum how many threads emphasized citing sources. I'm trying, lol. I've learned a lot myself.

Theoretically, the subject of could permissibly be either The earth or Firmly grounded .

However, there is a broad rule in Classical Arabic grammar that the subject of a verb, or a pronoun, refers to the nearest preceding noun that conforms with it in gender and number, but this is not a steadfast rule.

Nevertheless, I am of the view that the subject of is the earth.

Thank you for informing us of the Classical Arabic rule.

[huruf]

Words of the messenger arewords of the message. Otherwise they would be the words of some particular personn and not of a messenger.

God can instil perfectly word by word, what would be the imediment? The only imediment would be tht He wouldn't want to be so. If He wills He most certainly can.

With all my respects for the 19 submitters, ne does not need to be a 19 code submitter to know that the wording of the Qur'an is a wonder beyond anything a computer could make, let alone a person. And of course in any century God is quite capable to transmitting whatever He wants to whoever He wants in axxactly the way He wants. He obviously wanted that the Qur'an lasted for a long time. It still lasts, so it is for us, for whoever wants to avail of her or hiself of it.

Salaam

[Anoushirvan]

Peace Comrox,

Peace all,

Huh. That's thought-provoking. I was trying to find a verse that directly says Qur'an is His exact words, but I could not. I think the continuous use of "I" and "We" has proved to many that this is directly God's Word. (Maybe someone else can find this verse or verses, if it exists?)

Same as the letter from Solomon to queen of Sheba in surah 27. It is written at the first person being God, but Solomon wrote it.

I remember a verse addressing how God speaks to humans, how He does not speak to anyone except by inspiration or behind a barrier; I would imagine from what you've written here that you think the prophet/messenger was simply inspired with a message to convey to his people/humankind. (And thus not inspired with the direct Word of God - Please correct me if my assumption is wrong. ))

Perhaps this one,

4251
4251 Wama kana libasharin an yukallimahu Allahu illa wahyan aw min wara-i hijabin aw yursila rasoolan fayoohiya bi-ithnihi ma yashao innahu AAaliyyun hakeemun
4251 And it is not for any mortal that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise.

Together with this one

534
534 In huwa illa wahyun yooha
534 It is only a divine revealed inspiration.

I wonder if there are any verses which speak of flowing streams for the believers that do not flow beneath them?

---

EDIT I'm sure Bender could have answered the above (as he is as smart as Google) but I am impatient so I just used Google. I looked through all the verses mentioned here http//www.quranindex.net/kelime.php?id=8652

In all of the verses speaking specifically about the hereafter, it seems that "rivers flowing beneath" is always mentioned. Good to know.

That being said, I have a question for you Anoushirvan about the first half of verse 4715

"Is the example of the Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of alcohol that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey..."

According to Qur'an Corpus, the "rivers" mentioned in the verse have the same root as the root you mentioned above (http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=nhr#(47157)).

It sounds like these rivers in 4715 are all good and positive for the believers. They're described as pure and delicious. eat So are these rivers also supposed to be understood negatively?

(Perhaps they are different rivers than the ones that are flowing beneath? Can we Qur'anically prove it either way? hmm)

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. )

Thank you for pointing me this verse. I need then to update my understanding.

Gardens (with) rivers flowing beneath

jannatin tajree min tahtiha al-anharu

There are a lot of verses like that, e.g. 225, 2266, 315, 3136, etc.

So whatever is symbolized by gardens lies above what is symbolized by rivers.

River with clear negative meaning
2249
2.249. Falamma fasala talootu bialjunoodi qala inna Allaha mubtaleekum binaharin faman shariba minhu falaysa minnee waman lam yatAAamhu fa-innahu minnee illa mani ightarafa ghurfatan biyadihi fashariboo minhu illa qaleelan minhum falamma jawazahu huwa waallatheena amanoo maAAahu qaloo la taqata lana alyawma bijaloota wajunoodihi qala allatheena yathunnoona annahum mulaqoo Allahi kam min fi-atin qaleelatin ghalabat fi-atan katheeratan bi-ithni Allahi waAllahu maAAa alssabireena
2249 So when Talut set out with the soldiers, he said "God will test you with a river, whoever drinks from it is not with me, and whoever does not taste from it except one scoop with his hand is with me." They all drank from it, except for a few of them. So when he and those who believed with him crossed it, they said "We have no power today against Goliath and his soldiers!" But the ones who understood that they would meet God said "How many a time has a small group beaten a large group with the permission of God, and God is with the patient ones!"

What does this river represent so that drinking its water leads to weakness against disbelievers ?

River with positive meaning
4715
47.15. Mathalu aljannati allatee wuAAida almuttaqoona feeha anharun min ma-in ghayri asinin waanharun min labanin lam yataghayyar taAAmuhu waanharun min khamrin laththatin lilshsharibeena waanharun min AAasalin musaffan walahum feeha min kulli alththamarati wamaghfiratun min rabbihim kaman huwa khalidun fee alnnari wasuqoo maan hameeman faqattaAAa amAAaahum
4715 Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of intoxicants that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?

Rivers and mountains (rawasiya )

133
13.3. Wahuwa allathee madda al-arda wajaAAala feeha rawasiya waanharan wamin kulli alththamarati jaAAala feeha zawjayni ithnayni yughshee allayla alnnahara inna fee thalika laayatin liqawmin yatafakkaroona
133 And He is the One who has spread out the land, and made in it (firm) mountains and rivers, and all the fruits He made in pairs. The night covers the day. In that are signs for a people who think.

This verse makes it clear the opposition of fix mountains with respect to flowing rivers.

So in general rivers are a symbolic marker for something unstable, hence my proposal it symbolizes confusion of mind.
But verse 4715 seems to be the exception to this marker. Then I would say it carries a different symbolic meaning of rivers (in fact I wonder it was truly part of the revelation, but it is another debate, off-topic here).

[Bender]

EDIT I'm sure Bender could have answered the above (as he is as smart as Google) but I am impatient so I just used Google.

RED yes

BLUE >(

[Comrox]

Peace Comrox,

Peace Anoushirvan,

Same as the letter from Solomon to queen of Sheba in surah 27. It is written at the first person being God, but Solomon wrote it.

Perhaps this one,

4251
4251 Wama kana libasharin an yukallimahu Allahu illa wahyan aw min wara-i hijabin aw yursila rasoolan fayoohiya bi-ithnihi ma yashao innahu AAaliyyun hakeemun
4251 And it is not for any mortal that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise.

Together with this one

534
534 In huwa illa wahyun yooha
534 It is only a divine revealed inspiration.

Yup, that's what I was thinking of. Thanks

Thank you for pointing me this verse. I need then to update my understanding.

Gardens (with) rivers flowing beneath

jannatin tajree min tahtiha al-anharu

There are a lot of verses like that, e.g. 225, 2266, 315, 3136, etc.

So whatever is symbolized by gardens lies above what is symbolized by rivers.

River with clear negative meaning
2249
2.249. Falamma fasala talootu bialjunoodi qala inna Allaha mubtaleekum binaharin faman shariba minhu falaysa minnee waman lam yatAAamhu fa-innahu minnee illa mani ightarafa ghurfatan biyadihi fashariboo minhu illa qaleelan minhum falamma jawazahu huwa waallatheena amanoo maAAahu qaloo la taqata lana alyawma bijaloota wajunoodihi qala allatheena yathunnoona annahum mulaqoo Allahi kam min fi-atin qaleelatin ghalabat fi-atan katheeratan bi-ithni Allahi waAllahu maAAa alssabireena
2249 So when Talut set out with the soldiers, he said "God will test you with a river, whoever drinks from it is not with me, and whoever does not taste from it except one scoop with his hand is with me." They all drank from it, except for a few of them. So when he and those who believed with him crossed it, they said "We have no power today against Goliath and his soldiers!" But the ones who understood that they would meet God said "How many a time has a small group beaten a large group with the permission of God, and God is with the patient ones!"

What does this river represent so that drinking its water leads to weakness against disbelievers ?

Confusion, fear, uncertainty of God's will, lack of trust in God, lack of trust in themselves, etc.

River with positive meaning
4715
47.15. Mathalu aljannati allatee wuAAida almuttaqoona feeha anharun min ma-in ghayri asinin waanharun min labanin lam yataghayyar taAAmuhu waanharun min khamrin laththatin lilshsharibeena waanharun min AAasalin musaffan walahum feeha min kulli alththamarati wamaghfiratun min rabbihim kaman huwa khalidun fee alnnari wasuqoo maan hameeman faqattaAAa amAAaahum
4715 Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of intoxicants that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?

Rivers and mountains (rawasiya )

133
13.3. Wahuwa allathee madda al-arda wajaAAala feeha rawasiya waanharan wamin kulli alththamarati jaAAala feeha zawjayni ithnayni yughshee allayla alnnahara inna fee thalika laayatin liqawmin yatafakkaroona
133 And He is the One who has spread out the land, and made in it (firm) mountains and rivers, and all the fruits He made in pairs. The night covers the day. In that are signs for a people who think.

This verse makes it clear the opposition of fix mountains with respect to flowing rivers.

So in general rivers are a symbolic marker for something unstable, hence my proposal it symbolizes confusion of mind.
But verse 4715 seems to be the exception to this marker. Then I would say it carries a different symbolic meaning of rivers (in fact I wonder it was truly part of the revelation, but it is another debate, off-topic here).

Alright, cool. I wonder if it's the only exception. (It was the only verse that stood out to me on the "rivers" page I posted earlier.)

This is an interesting topic! I feel like all of the natural signs in Qur'an should be studied one day; that would be fascinating. How much have you studied about rivers? You've opened my eyes to something new.

RED yes

BLUE >

There there Bender. I still think you're pretty great.

Peace. peace

[Anoushirvan]

Peace Anoushirvan,

Peace Comrox,

River with clear negative meaning
2249 So when Talut set out with the soldiers, he said "God will test you with a river, whoever drinks from it is not with me, and whoever does not taste from it except one scoop with his hand is with me." They all drank from it, except for a few of them. So when he and those who believed with him crossed it, they said "We have no power today against Goliath and his soldiers!" But the ones who understood that they would meet God said "How many a time has a small group beaten a large group with the permission of God, and God is with the patient ones!"

What does this river represent so that drinking its water leads to weakness against disbelievers ?

Confusion, fear, uncertainty of God's will, lack of trust in God, lack of trust in themselves, etc.

Yes, I'd say so.

Alright, cool. I wonder if it's the only exception. (It was the only verse that stood out to me on the "rivers" page I posted earlier.)

I forgot this half-exception

.
2.74. Thumma qasat quloobukum min baAAdi thalika fahiya kaalhijarati aw ashaddu qaswatan wa-inna mina alhijarati lama yatafajjaru minhu al-anharu wa-inna minha lama yashshaqqaqu fayakhruju minhu almao wa-inna minha lama yahbitu min khashyati Allahi wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma taAAmaloona
2.74 . Then , even after that , your hearts were hardened and became as rocks , or worse than rocks , for hardness . For indeed there are rocks from out which rivers gush , and indeed there are rocks which split asunder so that water comes out from them . And indeed there are rocks which fall down for the fear of Allah . Allah is not unaware of what ye do .

I am also intrigued by how close the root "nhr", giving nahar/river, is from "nwr", giving nar/fire. I don't know if there is a grammatical theory about roots influencing each others.

This is an interesting topic! I feel like all of the natural signs in Qur'an should be studied one day; that would be fascinating. How much have you studied about rivers? You've opened my eyes to something new.

I proposed one interpretation of rivers and mountains but I am open to alternatives, of course.
I find that there are a lot of examples of pairs in Qur'an where each member of one pair represents opposite qualities to other member.
Mountains/rivers, day/night, heavens/earth, clay/fire, hell/paradise, believer/disbeliever.
I believe these kinds of examples answer to the following objection by the adversaries of Mohamed why would God create people that don't believe in Him, and also create people that believe in Him ?

[Comrox]

Peace Anoushirvan,

Peace Comrox,

Yes, I'd say so.

I forgot this half-exception

.
2.74. Thumma qasat quloobukum min baAAdi thalika fahiya kaalhijarati aw ashaddu qaswatan wa-inna mina alhijarati lama yatafajjaru minhu al-anharu wa-inna minha lama yashshaqqaqu fayakhruju minhu almao wa-inna minha lama yahbitu min khashyati Allahi wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma taAAmaloona
2.74 . Then , even after that , your hearts were hardened and became as rocks , or worse than rocks , for hardness . For indeed there are rocks from out which rivers gush , and indeed there are rocks which split asunder so that water comes out from them . And indeed there are rocks which fall down for the fear of Allah . Allah is not unaware of what ye do .

Good find. D

I am also intrigued by how close the root "nhr", giving nahar/river, is from "nwr", giving nar/fire. I don't know if there is a grammatical theory about roots influencing each others.

Perhaps someone with a greater understanding of classical Arabic grammar can answer this. )

I proposed one interpretation of rivers and mountains but I am open to alternatives, of course.
I find that there are a lot of examples of pairs in Qur'an where each member of one pair represents opposite qualities to other member.
Mountains/rivers, day/night, heavens/earth, clay/fire, hell/paradise, believer/disbeliever.
I believe these kinds of examples answer to the following objection by the adversaries of Mohamed why would God create people that don't believe in Him, and also create people that believe in Him ?

And also why is there suffering?

[Bender]

And also why is there suffering?

What do you mean?

[Comrox]

What do you mean?

Anoushirvan said the following

Mountains/rivers, day/night, heavens/earth, clay/fire, hell/paradise, believer/disbeliever.
I believe these kinds of examples answer to the following objection by the adversaries of Mohamed why would God create people that don't believe in Him, and also create people that believe in Him ?

I was adding on to that rhetorical questioning by including, "Why is there suffering?"

Hope you understand now. peace