Is it marriage or fornication?
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Can someone's marriage be treated as lawful if he denies any revelations from the Quran?
What is the status of his wife and children?
Logically there should be no other gods that can make marriages lawful, or it is shirk.
So as to reject what We gave them. Enjoy then, for you will come to know. Or have We sent down to them an authority, which speaks to them of that which they have set up?
Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have approved submission as the system for you.
Rule for marriage
And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe; for a believing servant is better than a polytheist, even if she is pleasing to you. And do not give in marriage to the male polytheists until they believe; for a believing servant is better than a polytheist, even if he is pleasing you.
Allah made equal unlawful marriage to adultery
The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or she who is a polytheist. And the adulteress , she will only be married to an adulterer or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.
reason
Believers
No, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you judge in what they dispute with each other, then they will not find in their souls any animosity for what you have decided, and they will comply completely.
Disbelievers
None dispute in the revelations of God except those who have rejected.
And do not eat from that which the name of God has not been mentioned, for it is wickedness. And the devils they inspire their supporters to argue with you; and if you obey them, then you are polytheists.
Those who ignore God and His Messenger (truth) by trying to make a distinction between them, saying, "We believe in the one (truth), but we discredit other (truth)," and want to pursue a path in between (schism), it is they who are truly unbelievers.
Thank you.
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6010 O you who believe, if the believing females come emigrating to you, then you shall test them. God is fully aware of their belief. Thus, if you establish that they are believers, then you shall not return them to the rejecters. They are no longer lawful for one another. And return the dowries that were paid. And there is no sin upon you to marry them , if you have paid their dowries to them. And do not keep disbelieving wives, and ask back what dowries you paid. And let them ask back what dowries they had paid. Such is the judgment of God; He judges between you. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
3328 O prophet, say to your wives "If you are seeking this worldly life and its vanities, then come, I will make a provision for you and release you in an amicable manner."
2883 Such will be the abode of the Hereafter; We reserve it for those who do not seek prestige on the earth, nor corruption; and the ending will be for the righteous.
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Can someone's marriage be treated as lawful if he denies any revelations from the Quran?
I will assume that by "lawful," you mean lawful in the eyes of God.
None of us are God, so none of us can say. But here's what I think, with verses below
285 "But then here you are killing each other and expelling a group of you from their homes; you act towards them with evil and animosity. And if they come to you as prisoners, you ransom them while it was unlawful for you to expel them! Do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in part? The punishment for those among you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be delivered to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do."
End of 37 "...and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say 'We believe in it, all is from our Lord.' And none will remember except those who possess intelligence."
I would say that we will all be judged individually, on a case-to-case basis, for our varying levels of belief/understanding, compassion, and good deeds towards people and our communities. What is the revelation that someone denies? How much research, studying, and/or pondering did they engage in over this revelation? Why do they deny it? Are they approaching the revelation in the right way? These are all questions that only the one who denies can answer. We should all do our best to understand ourselves, the Qur'an, and what God wants from each of us.
In 285 it seems clear that we cannot choose what to believe in the Book and we must believe all of it. But if we're not well founded in knowledge, according to 37, then God expects there will be people that will not believe in all of it. God knows that. But when we do have knowledge, we're expected to believe all. And we should strive to have that level of knowledge.
That being said, the content of the verse 285 must also be considered - God is addressing those people/believers who are being violent and evil towards their brothers and sisters in their community.
So really what I think what God is saying here that at its simplest, we must be fair - no matter if people are committing good or evil. We must be peaceful towards those who offer us peace and are doing good in their communities, but we must be harsh towards those who commit clear injustices, such as murder. We can't love everyone, but we can't hate everyone either. There must be a balance.
So yes, I think a person's marriage can be treated as lawful even if they deny revelation. But it would depend on the revelation itself, the person, and their intentions. And of course, we should always seek to receive His guidance.
What is the status of his wife and children?
A person is only responsible for him or herself, not for anyone else.
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I will assume that by "lawful," you mean lawful in the eyes of God.
None of us are God, so none of us can say.
It is between spouses and for all mankind. The verse clearly said
Rule for marriage
And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe ... do not give in marriage to the male polytheists until they believe.
6010 O you who believe, if the believing females come emigrating to you, then you shall test them. God is fully aware of their belief. Thus, if you establish that they are believers, then you shall not return them to the rejecters. They are no longer lawful for one another. And return the dowries that were paid. And there is no sin upon you to marry them , if you have paid their dowries to them. And do not keep disbelieving wives, and ask back what dowries you paid. And let them ask back what dowries they had paid. Such is the judgment of God; He judges between you. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
It is lawgiving revelations for regulating marriages.
But here's what I think, with verses below
285 "But then here you are killing each other and expelling a group of you from their homes; you act towards them with evil and animosity. And if they come to you as prisoners, you ransom them while it was unlawful for you to expel them! Do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in part? The punishment for those among you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be delivered to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do."
End of 37 "...and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say 'We believe in it, all is from our Lord.' And none will remember except those who possess intelligence."
I believe the verses does not apply to the issue.
Here we have lawgiving revelations about marriage ("do not", muhkamat), and the verse you quoted are relating to the revelations which are not definite in meanings (mutasyaabihat), such as hell, heavens, salat, angels, satans etc.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are lawgiving revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are of a similitude. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow that which is of a similitude, seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except those who possess intelligence.
I would say that we will all be judged individually, on a case-to-case basis, for our varying levels of belief/understanding, compassion, and good deeds towards people and our communities. What is the revelation that someone denies? How much research, studying, and/or pondering did they engage in over this revelation? Why do they deny it? Are they approaching the revelation in the right way? These are all questions that only the one who denies can answer. We should all do our best to understand ourselves, the Qur'an, and what God wants from each of us. )
In 285 it seems clear that we cannot choose what to believe in the Book and we must believe all of it. But if we're not well founded in knowledge, according to 37, then God expects there will be people that will not believe in all of it. God knows that. But when we do have knowledge, we're expected to believe all. And we should strive to have that level of knowledge.
That being said, the content of the verse 285 must also be considered - God is addressing those people/believers who are being violent and evil towards their brothers and sisters in their community.
The lawgiving revelations about marriage are clear and definite in meanings, it cannot be allegorical and it is for the public.
1732 And do not come near adultery, for it is immoral and an evil path.
1738 All of this is bad, and disliked by your Lord.
So really what I think what God is saying here that at its simplest, we must be fair - no matter if people are committing good or evil. We must be peaceful towards those who offer us peace and are doing good in their communities, but we must be harsh towards those who commit clear injustices, such as murder. We can't love everyone, but we can't hate everyone either. There must be a balance.
So yes, I think a person's marriage can be treated as lawful even if they deny revelation. But it would depend on the revelation itself, the person, and their intentions. And of course, we should always seek to receive His guidance.
For the muhkamat or clear revelations, one has to believe and agree with what the Quran is saying. Even the slightest disagreement with the Quran invalidates the claim to be a Muslim.
404 None dispute in the revelations of God except those who have rejected. So do not be impressed by their influence in the land.
6121 If you (Muhammad) obey them, then you (Muhammad) are polytheists.
1015 And when Our clear revelations were recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said "Bring a Qur'an other than this, or change it!" Say "It is not for me to change it of my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear, if I disobeyed my Lord, the retribution of a great Day!"
A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority. ~Rick Warren
A person is only responsible for him or herself, not for anyone else.
I believe it is not relating to marriages.
6010 O you who believe, if the believing females come emigrating to you, then you shall test them. God is fully aware of their belief. Thus, if you establish that they are believers, then you shall not return them to the rejecters. They are no longer lawful for one another. ...
Peace Comrox
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Believers
No, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you judge in what they dispute with each other, then they will not find in their souls any animosity for what you have decided, and they will comply completely.
I believe this verse support verse 465 and explain when someone can be treated as have "comply completely"
4145-146 The hypocrites will be in the lowest pit of the Fire; and you will not find for them a victor. Except those who repent, and amend, and hold fast to God, and are loyal in their system to God; then these will be with the believers. And God will give the believers a great recompense.
Four conditions
- repent
- amend
- hold fast to God
- are loyal in their system to God
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- repent
417Repentance is only for those who commit a sin out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God, for God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
418 And there will be no repentance for those who commit sin then when death comes upon any one of them he says "I repent now!" Nor for those who die while they are rejecters . For those We have prepared a painful retribution.
Two conditions
- commit a sin out of ignorance
- repent soon after
2159 Surely those who conceal what We have sent down to them of the clarities and the guidance, after We Had made it clear for the people in the Book; these will be cursed by God and be cursed by those who curse.
2160 Except those who repent and amend and clarify; for those I will accept their repentance, for I am the One who accepts repentance, the Merciful.
Three conditions
- repent
- amend
- clarify
Only then Allah will accept their repentance.
Other than following the above conditions.
975-77 And from them are those who pledged to God "If He gives us from His bounty, then we will believe and we will be among the upright." So when He gave them from His bounty, they became stingy with it, and they turned away while they were averse. Thus, hypocrisy follows in their hearts until the Day they meet Him; that is for breaking what they promised God, and for what they were lying.
26200-201 As such, We diverted it from the hearts of the criminals. They do not believe in it...
288 And they said "Our hearts are sealed!" No, it is God who has cursed them for their rejection, for very little do they believe.
541 O messenger, do not be saddened by those who increase in disbelief from among those who said "We believe" with their mouths while their hearts did not believe.
or perhaps the repentance will be postponed by Allah...
9118 And also the three who were left behind, until the land, as vast as it is, became strained to them, and their very souls became strained, and they thought there was no shelter from God except to Him. Then He pardoned them that they may repent. God is the Redeemer, the Merciful.
It is merely what I believe from the Quran.
Peace.
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and perhaps those who are unable to comply with the above will risk his marriage, it will become adultery ...
supporting verses for the main principle in 2221 and 243 ..
6010 O you who believe, if the believing females come emigrating to you, then you shall test them. God is fully aware of their belief. Thus, if you establish that they are believers, then you shall not return them to the rejecters. They are no longer lawful for one another. And return the dowries that were paid. And there is no sin upon you to marry them , if you have paid their dowries to them. And do not keep disbelieving wives, and ask back what dowries you paid. And let them ask back what dowries they had paid. Such is the judgment of God; He judges between you. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
3328 O prophet, say to your wives "If you are seeking this worldly life and its vanities, then come, I will make a provision for you and release you in an amicable manner."
2883 Such will be the abode of the Hereafter; We reserve it for those who do not seek prestige on the earth, nor corruption; and the ending will be for the righteous.
Allah knows best.
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Peace
Based on these criterias
Believers
No, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you judge in what they dispute with each other, then they will not find in their souls any animosity for what you have decided, and they will comply completely.
I believe this verse support verse 465 and explain when someone can be treated as have "comply completely"
4145-146 The hypocrites will be in the lowest pit of the Fire; and you will not find for them a victor. Except those who repent, and amend, and hold fast to God, and are loyal in their system to God; then these will be with the believers. And God will give the believers a great recompense.
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You affirm that being a believer is a legal concept as it concerns marriage.
Thewhole ppoit of it is that you cannot proof belief. Only God knows that so in order to apply any earthly law to belief you must apply some arbitrary legal proof of what belief is for the purpose of applying it as a law concerning marriage. Unless of course it is understood that it is those who marry themselves who fix what is belief and what is not belief concerning themselves.
That is the question.
Salaam
Salaam
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The word used for believe is confused with a word that means have trust or confidence in. Amin means just to trust and hence rely on.
Believe as in "think so" is found in the Arabic word . There is no room for only supposing so in the realm of God. Join God's oneness wholeheartedly and share God's traits of perfection. This is being mumineen.
As for not trusting Quran I can have understanding towards intelligent people who reject Quran for what is claimed to be written in there and to which they have no proper and better interpretation.
A person is not garbage just because they do not acknowledge certain things and I would say even a lot of you are involved in ignorance due to confusion and that does not have to do with a lack of trust in God/Rabb. God is more about the image of being than about a skyman of worship. If you can grow spiritually and become a better person than you have relied on God/Rabb.
The concept of idolatry is completely misunderstood and it is more about the distraction of the object of idolatry. I would say 99% of you reading this perform idolatry in some way consciously or unconsciously. Our struggle is to minimize that idolatry. If you eat a mere ice cream you perform idolatry. Anything that releases dopamine and taken for pleasure is idolatry. Anything that pleases the beast is idolatry.
Be well
Amenuel -
I think it is clear tht in this case what is being dealt with is what is a mu'min.
So my question as inmy previoys message holds
You affirm that being a believer is a legal concept as it concerns marriage.
Thewhole ppoit of it is that you cannot proof belief. Only God knows that so in order to apply any earthly law to belief you must apply some arbitrary legal proof of what belief is for the purpose of applying it as a law concerning marriage. Unless of course it is understood that it is those who marry themselves who fix what is belief and what is not belief concerning themselves.
That is the question.
Salaam
Salaam
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You are right, huruf. It is hard to immediately judge whether a person "believes" or not, and some people may think they have faith in the right things but they do not.
Faith is shown in one's person, in how they are and act. Faith is just as much in confidence as it is in being a certain way. Faith is not about superficial matter and rituals but in one's intentions.
Prayers do not mean anything without the proper conditions to enable them. One needs to work to realize them and so be one with the wish. If I pray to become a better person and then I do not show any willpower to become better then I will also not become better.
The sectarian view of the polytheist is that of a really dirty and disgusting person, but they are a person like anyone else with different problems and weaknesses. We all have varying degrees of self-realization.
But being mumineen is about self-confidence, how secure one is in themselves. Those who are yelly and noisy are usually not the one's with the highest peace in their hearts, like those who call people "kafar" from right to left which word means to be deluded (covered like in covered senses). More often that not those who call others kafar are kafars themselves by definition.
So far I have not even discovered a word that means to disbelieve. To lack "amin" is to lack confidence, faith. To be kafar is to be confused, not knowing their place in the world and thus not taking proper action.
The worst problem is the confusion concerning the simple phrase of "amen b'Allah" which means the confidence of being. Rabb is the only word to somewhat mean god in Arabic although it means developer much like creator.
Amin/amen does always mean security, confidence and trust in all occurrences as that is the meaning of the root, but it would also imply that one relies upon what they say of utterance in amiin, like "let it be so" or "(let us) make it so". Like I said, amin is confidence and faith to do a certain thing. If you say amin at the end of prayer this is your aim because you have trust in what you just said (not merely thinking/believing).
And the best thing you could do is to marry a "polytheist" and reform them. You probably have your own issues to mend. A sectarian and a polytheist have two things in common and that is that they idolize and thus waste energy on vain worship for a Rabb that does not need it. You could unite them under one label that is Pagan which means to be worldly/fleshly. If you revere this world you are no better. The idol is Allah while Rabb is the word they ought to have used. Allah is who they ought to be in unity and Rabb is the developer which no one is separate from, dependent or independent mind within.
I am married to someone who became a real Pagan but changed and I did not divorce her for that fact alone although the behavior nearly killed the marriage. Persistence became victorious together with a great deal of mercy. Delusion is seldom a conscious decision and everyone is worthy of forgiveness and just like Rabb forgives so do I because I strive to be in the same image some call "sunnat'ullah". Rabb is who I strive to be in my ways. Rabb is though so much more than me in encompassment.
Be well
Amenuel -
You affirm that being a believer is a legal concept as it concerns marriage.
Thewhole ppoit of it is that you cannot proof belief. Only God knows that so in order to apply any earthly law to belief you must apply some arbitrary legal proof of what belief is for the purpose of applying it as a law concerning marriage. Unless of course it is understood that it is those who marry themselves who fix what is belief and what is not belief concerning themselves.
That is the question.
Hablum minallah is not provable but why is it not provable for lawgiving and definite revelations, and in matter relating to hablum minannas?
I find it is provable and the same as any other laws applicable today.
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They make you judge in what they dispute with each other ,
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They will not find in their souls any animosity for what you have decided,
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They will comply completely , amend, hold fast to God, and are loyal in their system to God].
Peace
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I believe it is referring to the Quran, the Rasul and the role of a Rasul for all matters pertaining to the validity of marriages, rights of children, distribution of assets etc.
But marriage is not only related to hablum minannas, but also hablum minallah, ie. between spouses. People know when it can be treated as marriages or adultery and this is between them and Allah. Fooling themselves does not make marriages valid, but committing great sins.
3328 O prophet, say to your wives "If you are seeking this worldly life and its vanities, then come, I will make a provision for you and release you in an amicable manner."
The retribution of God for the rejecters is always severe.
222 The retribution of God is most severe.
And there are no other gods can make marriages valid except Allah. For one to believe there is other than Allah that can make marriages valid has committed shirk.
8129 And you cannot will anything except if it is also willed by God, Lord of the worlds.
448 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives other than that for whom He pleases. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed invented a great sin.
572 Whoever sets up partners with God, then God will restrict Paradise from him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."
This is just what I believe, my opinion.
385 And whoever follows other than submission as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
Peace
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3035 Have We sent down to them an authority, that speaks of the shirk which they are committing?
4525 And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, their only argument is to say "Then bring back our forefathers, if you are truthful."
5328 Conjecture is no substitute for the truth.
This is the issue.
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hablum minallah is the relationship between man and Allah. No one can interfere this relationship and it is personal. Absolute freedom.
1099-100 And had your Lord willed, all the people on the earth in their entirety would have believed. Would you force the people to make them believe? And it is not for a soul to believe except with the permission of God. And He lets taint those who do not comprehend.
hablum minannas is the relationship between man and man. This is the juridiction of man and for social order.
460-61 Did you not note those (muslim) who claimed they believed in what was sent down to you and what was sent before you? They wanted to seek judgment using evil, while they were ordered to reject it. It is the devil who wants to lead them far astray. And if they are told "Come to what God has sent down and to the messenger," you see the hypocrites turning away from you strongly.
548-49 And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, affirming what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so race to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute. And judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins; and many of the people are wicked. Is it the judgment of the days of ignorance that they seek? Who is better than God as a judge for a people who comprehend?
peace