Fasting in North Pole
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peace,
can you have any article on that brother wakas,, i mean some closing understanding... or we are going on wrong findings regarding fasting..
I haven't written an article on Quranic calendar/timing system. When it comes to abstinence, 2184 Quran says
if ill/travelling one can do so in other days
if able to abstain (with the implication they choose not to for whatever reason) then they can exchange/redeem by feeding of the needy, if one volunteers better that is up to them
abstinence is better for you2185 says abstinence is for those who witness the shahr
If you happen to live in a place wherein this timing mechanism does not work (i.e. you do not witness the shahr) then it is not applicable to you - you can choose to abstain or not, or choose other days instead, or feed the needy etc i.e. do what you think is best.Quran says "give the excess" it does not state a specific amount, i.e. do what you think is best.
Quran explicitly states it does not intend hardship for us in 2185, and explicitly says one can choose other days, clearly suggesting the exact timing of your abstinence is NOT the most critical thing, it is the act of abstinence itself, hence the end of 2184 says "abstinence is good/better for you" it doesn't say "abstinence in Ramadan is good/better for you".
In fact, it could be argued the regular/timed salat done in the morning/evening of one's day (whenever the morning/evening is) sets a precedent/model that can be used for one's abstinence. See my previous post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608586.msg389145#msg389145From my studies, Quran is a very pragmatic book, it shoots for the ideal sometimes but it allows flexibility.
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Peace
How can it be Islam when there is no consistency?
The foundation or major traits of Islam is consistency, the Sunnatullah.
Inconsistency inferred the practice of "the wicked."
Did you not note how God puts forth the example that a good word is like a good tree, whose root is firm and whose branches are in the sky. It bears its fruit every so often with the permission of its Lord; and God puts forth the examples for the people, perhaps they will remember. And the example of a bad word is like a tree which has been uprooted from the surface of the earth, it has nowhere to settle. God makes firm those who believe with firm sayings in the worldly life, and in the Hereafter. And God misguides the wicked, and God does what He wishes.
482 Do they not reflect on the Qur'an? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
3543 You will not find any change in the way of God, and you will not find any bypass to the way of God.
4085 But their belief could not help them once they saw Our might; such is the way of God that has been established for His servants; and the rejecters were then totally in loss.
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@ brother wakas thanx ur post make my concept more clear,, regarding exact timings.. God bless you.
@brother zulf.. you are right something is missing ... or rituals are changed due to violations by early historians, or the concept of rituals are changed the original way God knows best.. peace
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2185 says abstinence is for those who witness the shahr
If you happen to live in a place wherein this timing mechanism does not work (i.e. you do not witness the shahr) then it is not applicable to you - you can choose to abstain or not, or choose other days instead, or feed the needy etc i.e. do what you think is best.Peace br Wakas,
Just to clarify, it has not to do with witnessing the shahr (in case shahr means moon/month). This is not the issue.
The issue is the instruction to fast until the white thread becomes distinguished from the black thread. The sky experiences a sundown, but after that there is never a black thread, so there is no point in time where white thread takes over from black thread. The white threat is there all the way from sun down. So the issue is that we have the start of the fast (provided that it is as the sun sets below the horizon) but no end of it. There is no dark portion of the night.
God asks us to reflect and ponder the creation, so I think this kind of observation also can tell us something about what is going on. Nature is nature. It is fixed, no flaws, it is what it is. However, this cannot be said about our understanding of religious texts.
Peace
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hmm Fasting in space is a problem also. Our fast was instituted during the life
of the prophet, as the new moon was sighted in his area of the world, therefore we can use
his area as an general rule for the amount of time to start and stop the fast.
There is no need to fast 22 hrs, 7 more hrs than I am fasting, that is what makes no sense.
So the folks in those northern and southern extremes I advise you to use times that are in line
with the rest of the ummah. In Mecca Farj is around 4 and Maghrib is around 7 in the eastern
USA Farj is around 4 and Maghrib is around 835.2/185 Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and for you to complete
the period and to glorify Allah for that which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.all have a blessed Ramadan
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Peace Zulf, the instructions are obviously for the masses as Islam is a communal guidance system.
I think I understand your point about exceptions like what about people who colonize the moon, or
astronauts, or the blind, or where there is little daylight. I think I get your point, however the
guidelines are for the fast. You are not leaving the Quran if you fast during the month of Ramadan.Have a peaceful Ramadhan
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Peace bro, I'm just talking about normal, common conditions here on Earth, for the masses. Nothing odd, no space stations.
To not follow a quranic instruction for which there is no exception, but rather follow tradition, must be the same as leaving the Quran.
Let me make up a fictional example "Scripture says fast every 3 first days of every month of the year. Fast as many minutes each day as the thermometer shows degrees Celsius/centigrade above zero."
This is fine... except when it is winter. Some areas will do fine around the year. Others will have problems as there aren't days in every month that has degrees above zero. The command is to fast each and every month of the year, and there are no exceptions provided for.
This is what we are dealing with. Nature doesn't fit with scriptural instructions.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but so far, nobody has been able to solve it, except by referring to tradition, which clashes with the quran, which means it is just turning a blind eye to the issue. I've never seen any real solution, or even an explanation as to how I am engaged in faulty reasoning. Most people (Muslims) don't live in such areas, and those who do simply follow a version of timings from their ancestral lands. Therefore it is not taken as a real issue.
Peace
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Peace bro, as you have stated it is not a real issue! Being on the north pole or far north or south
is not a normal condition for the fast! that is why you make your point! nopeHave a peaceful Ramadhan
Sorry for dragging this on...
Not a real issue for whom? These areas are normal countries, like the whole of darn Scandinavia and everything else on equal latitudes. Russia, Canada, even parts of UK.
I find it very odd that fasting would not be a normal thing to do in such places?
Is fasting now not only connected to seeing the moon, but now also dependent on how much light there is in the sky? If there is too much light, fasting is not normal for that area??? What does this mean? There is an absurd linking of abstaining from food/water to moon and sky light. Sounds like a fantasy tale full of magic.
Anyhow. Never mind. Let people do as their forefathers used to do. -X
Peace bro
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topics of rituals like salat, ramzan, hajj, zakat , always cause confusion... there is something missing in all of this,,
we have a better understanding of salat and quran did tell us about the timings and procedure,,
ramdhan exact timings is still a issue,, if we follow traditional way problem still not solved as we know the calendar is started by second caliph and we dnt even know it was really a second caliph who order this command or bukhari and company invented it.. for fitting ramadhan in.. may b early scholars have same problem what quran based students are facing today and they bring characters and caliph inside their chains,,
about zakat , its also sorted .. but traditional way of zakat is also not in the harmony with quran alone students...
about hajj although i did not research it thorouly but what i see quran based students have lot of different views than traditional way ...
what i m surprising here,,, these all are not new practices,, for specially christians and jews .. so till this date i havnt encounter the traditonal way or quran alone way in any of these book felllows,, are we all are missing something...
there is also another solution for all of this,, what we are understanding by rituals is something else what usually we see ?
or its all about human inventions for sects to differeniate that we belong to that sect.. although God is same but rituals and everything else is different ...first it was between jews and christians,,, then chirstians jews and muslims,,,
and then partly divided by sunni shia quranist, catholic protestans orthodox, and
even in sunni and shia there are sub catagories,,, ,, like deobandi, bralevi, hanfi, ahlehadith, jamat islami,,and about shias i think they have more than 15 sub caste in which some of them beleive ali is god,, astagfar..
what my point is,, we quran alone students are also suffering from problems like,, muhammad real or ficticious,,
rituals how to describe,, salat is remebring or physical. code 19 real or fiction. guys where are we all going.i remeber on everse of quran , in which its Allah who let us spend our life whatever way we wanted otherwise it was not difficult for God to make us one nation. but he tests us.. like this. so i think some problems will never solve untill day of judgement. but the topic of mumin(believer) vs muslim(submittor) is something we need to understand.. what real relegion is..
peace
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Peace bro Zulf, no need to be Sorry for dragging this on... not an issue if one wishes to fast,
as for Scandinavia and everything else on equal latitudes. Russia, Canada, even parts of UK
people in those regions can fast with folks in other regions Like if you were in space, or
underwater, or blind, or on the moon, or on mars or...................Allah has not forbidden us fast with other regions yes
2/185 Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and for you to complete
the period and to glorify Allah for that which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.Peace @ imrankhawaja there is no confusion or contradiction in the deen only our lack of
knowledge and/or understanding.39/18 Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah
has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding.all have a blessed Ramadan
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Peace bro Zulf, no need to be Sorry for dragging this on... not an issue if one wishes to fast,
as for Scandinavia and everything else on equal latitudes. Russia, Canada, even parts of UK
people in those regions can fast with folks in other regions Like if you were in space, or
underwater, or blind, or on the moon, or on mars or...................Allah has not forbidden us fast with other regions yes
When it's 4 am in mecca it's 10 pm in city X, do these people of city X have to start their fast at 10 pm?
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Salamu Alaykum and Ramadan Kareem!
It seems many of you are missing a key aspect of the verse 2184 on how to fast.
"...And upon those who are able - a ransom of feeding a poor person ...) 2184
So clearly if you are in the North Pole, you will not fast an entire 30 days with no eating or drinking; this is simply a ridiculous statement, and you would die. Instead, you will feed 30 poor people. Very simple answer folks.
Salaam,
Clash.
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Salamu Alaykum and Ramadan Kareem!
It seems many of you are missing a key aspect of the verse 2184 on how to fast.
"...And upon those who are able - a ransom of feeding a poor person ...) 2184
So clearly if you are in the North Pole, you will not fast an entire 30 days with no eating or drinking; this is simply a ridiculous statement, and you would die. Instead, you will feed 30 poor people. Very simple answer folks.
Salaam,
Clash.
lol this answer was very simple already from the start,,,
the issue here is the people who want to do fast by their own happiness. what rules they must follow..
I m not fasting I changed my thinking after researching on it this year and last year I did not fast but I pay ransom with the grace of God..
but if I wanted to do fast and I m living near poles even in uk Scotland got fast like 22 hours according to traditional mode of timings .. so that's the question ..and issue... folks lol
peace and God bless you
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Peace Zulf,
This is what we are dealing with. Nature doesn't fit with scriptural instructions.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but so far, nobody has been able to solve it, except by referring to tradition, which clashes with the quran, which means it is just turning a blind eye to the issue. I've never seen any real solution, or even an explanation as to how I am engaged in faulty reasoning. Most people (Muslims) don't live in such areas, and those who do simply follow a version of timings from their ancestral lands. Therefore it is not taken as a real issue.
I raised this issue a while ago on another thread and no one was able to provide a solution at that time as well. As you can also see, highly intelligent and extremely learned posters have tried and still haven't been able to come up with an explanation for the area north of Arctic Circle for both sawm and salat (what does morning and evening clearly indicate even when sun is not mentioned?).
One plausible hypothesis for this could be as follows
The original text of al-quran was completely of divine origin and did not have this discrepancy and all astronomical possibilities were addressed, since the Infinite Creator has full and complete knowledge of the creation. The hypothesis is that this discrepancy was a result of addition to or deletion from the original message. Sanaa manuscripts are unequivocal and indisputable archeological evidence of tampering with the divine message which makes this scenario possible. No wonder the authorities allowed only 40 folios to be studied in detail and when evidence of this tampering started to surface, they put the remaining thousands of parchments under lock and key and refused any further access to them. Go figure. Question is, what are they trying to hide?
Someone might jump in and start quoting 159, 4142, and 8522.
My answer is as follows
- Logical fallacy of circular reasoning or begging the question.
- Those verses are applicable to the original text of al-quran which is still preserved somewhere on this Earth and in lawh mahfouz (the akashic library).
I am eagerly awaiting the discovery of that original text of al-quran to prove/disprove my hypothesis.
PS I am also in the process of studying the 6000 year old Sumerian clay tablets cuneiform inscriptions, which predate the Torah, with some mind boggling and mind blowing discoveries so far. I might never be the same again.
Peace
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its very simple ,, and logical infact...
the rotation of earth decides the time of morning and evening.. not the sunlight... either way round sun does not set at all... its the observation of observer who notice the sun is not visible on horizon so its mean the rotation of earth is at a stage where sunlight is not approaching..
in extreme polar countries like scandavia where there is a time in year when rotation of earth is at an angle that sun is still visible on horizon but earth is continously rotating and the the evening time and morning time is same like a dim view compared to sunrise and sunset in normal areas.
so accordingly salat observer can understand when sun is touching to horizon from east side even its visibile its morning or sunrise or the rotation/timing of earth specific for fajar prayer. whereas when the touching of sun to western horizon will determine the night prayer even sun is visible..not visible your time started ..
now come to the normal areas same phenomena apply but due to geographical location the timing and views of setting and rising is always different...
salat isssue can be handle like that whereas about fast, its simply exempt as the catagory of scandavia is something we can say that we are traveller or we feel difficulty so there are options for complete count on other days or pay a ransom...
like every math question have level of difficulty the points of science and rotation are always play important role to understand where does we need to apply proper science..
we are living in earth ,, so the rotation of earth is subject but misunderstood we are ,we think sun is boss due to sun we need to deciide day and night light and dark , morning and evenng. sunrise sunset... infact sun is always there its earth that revolves and bring day and night light and dark , sunrise and sunset (for observer) so action should be taking while considering earth instead of sun..
so i think question is very nice what you ask but you are asking answer by taking sun as a subject whereas we should need to consider earth as a subject which is our homing place...
peace...
thats my understanding it can be wrong,
