The Quran only recognizes defensive war, no offensive war
-
Flipping through Chapter 9 last night I felt that the overall message of it is to uphold your promises/agreements/oaths/etc. There is a verse I read that says even the polytheists have a solemn oath with God if they've made a peace treaty with the believers; so they're held to the same standard of oaths as everyone else is.
Good logic - Personally I wouldn't go so far to say that Man of Faith's faith has disappeared... I know he has his own interpretation/translation he's working on - one I'm interested to read in its completion honestly - and even though he doesn't believe in Qur'an as most of us here see it, who knows what may come out of any of us one day. We shouldn't be putting him or anyone down and saying they've lost faith. I may disagree with some of his points here and there, but we all disagree at times and I think he's chosen a good spiritual path.
-
Peace Comrox.
Thank you or the advice..MOF is a brother and we occasionally tease each other in good spirit. He knows that I am not serious.
Just thought I will clarify or you. May the Lord forgive me
Sister, I also appreciate your contribution in the threads , I read some interesting views from you.
Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I don't think so...
The section from Quran below tells story that Allah ordered an offensive war / invasion via Moses..Peace Jafar,
While I also think that Qur'an talks a bit more than purely defensive war, I don't believe that the verses you have quoted talk about offensive war. Well, they even don't talk about physical war, actually, IMHO.
O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. And do not turn back, for surely ye turn back as losers
They said O Moses! Lo! strong people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then).
Then out spake two of those who feared (their Lord, men) unto whom Allah had been gracious
Enter in upon them by the gate, for if ye enter by it, lo! ye will be victorious!.
So put your trust (in Allah) if ye are indeed believers.
They said O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here.
He said My Lord! I have control of none but myself and my brother, so distinguish between us and the wrong-doing folk. (Their Lord) said For this the land will surely be forbidden them for forty years that they will wander in the earth, bewildered. So grieve not over the wrongdoing folk.(520-26)
If you search in Qur'an for the expression "enter by the gate" related to Moses and Children of Israel, you'll find that
2.58.
2.58. Wa-ith qulna odkhuloo hathihi alqaryata fakuloo minha haythu shi/tum raghadan waodkhuloo albaba sujjadan waqooloo hittatun naghfir lakum khatayakum wasanazeedu almuhsineena
2.58 . And when We said Go into this township and eat freely of that which is therein , and enter the gate "sujjadan", and say "hittatun". We will forgive you your sins and increase ( reward ) for the right-doers .For some reasons too long to explain here, sujjadan does not mean prostrating but listening carefully in intention to obey.
And hittatun does not mean repentance like in most translations, but the action to put something from high place to lower place (see Project Root List). This exactly apply to preaching.Interpretations of 520 to 526 as offensive war often come from the Bible, and especially the Book of Joshua, full of massacres and genocide description. But this is clearly not something advocated in Qur'an.
Nevertheless, threat of war does exist in Qur'an, when we read the story of Solomon and queen of Sheba in surah 27.
2736 So when they came to Solomon he said "Are you providing me with wealth? What God has provided for me is far better than what He has given you. Now you are happy with your gift!"
2737 "Go back to them. For we shall come to them with soldiers the like of which they have never seen, and we will drive them out humiliated, while they are feeble."Looks like the threat is to send armed missionnaries.
-
Peace all,
Peace Comrox.
Thank you or the advice..MOF is a brother and we occasionally tease each other in good spirit. He knows that I am not serious.
Just thought I will clarify or you. May the Lord forgive me
Sister, I also appreciate your contribution in the threads , I read some interesting views from you.
Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace.;D I feel really silly now. Thank you for the much-needed clarification. I will keep it in mind for the future.
On the Qur'an's position of war... Personally, I'm (pretty much) a pacifist. I hate war, I hate violence, I hate destruction, killing, etc...
But... I understand that there are some circumstances where war is necessary.
2216 "Warfare has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; and God knows while you do not know."
People don't like war. Most of us, I imagine, would love to not participate in war. We would rather curl up in a corner in the world and ignore everything else that's happening - and everyone else that's suffering. But sometimes we need war to right wrongs (at least as much as we can "right" them through violence) and eliminate evil when it will not stop for anything, and when this evil is threatening all kinds of people, societies, and ways of life around the world.
-
I believe that the Quran only authorized war, in defense. I always remember this verse, which reminds us why theese people were fighting in the first place
475 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say "Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from Yourself a supporter, and grant us from Yourself a victor!"
Personaly while i prefer peace, the world is corrupt, people are being oppressive and cruel, causing tyranny like raping, killing, etc innocent people, and frankly, i believe such people should be fought and killed, except those who repent and ammend beforehand. I believe this is what the Quran says.
Personaly I would love the opportunity to fight with other believers and end oppression, however i am not in a position to do so, and i fight and strive my own war, albiet not physicaly, against wrongdoing.
I believe the Quran is very clear on war, that it is only permissible in defense, and to protect against tyranny and oppression. I believe the Quran actualy encourages believers to band together, and to make war against such people, and to stand up for justice and truth.
Look at ISIS etc. this is what we should be fighting against. for example the Kurdish Peshmerga, i dont know that much about what exactly their ideology is, but to me it seems they are the some of the few, who are actualy standing up for the people over there. and realy it seems they have played a key roal in actualy getting results against terrorism.
May my lord forgive me, this was an erraneous statement, as i actualy have not, and cannot realisticly verify it for myselfI am interested to hear all of your views,
Peace -
Personaly while i prefer peace, the world is corrupt, people are being oppressive and cruel, causing tyranny like raping, killing, etc innocent people, and frankly, i believe such people should be fought and killed, except those who repent and ammend beforehand. I believe this is what the Quran says.
I believe the Quran is very clear on war, that it is only permissible in defense, and to protect against tyranny and oppression. I believe the Quran actualy encourages believers to band together, and to make war against such people, and to stand up for justice and truth.
I am interested to hear all of your views,
PeacePeace Timotheus,
How do you recognize defense war from offensive war ?
In most of the case, the boundary between both is far from obvious. What looks defense war for one party is offensive war for the other.For those who can read French, here is an interesting link
https//fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principes_%C3%A9l%C3%A9mentaires_de_propagande_de_guerre• We don't want war
• The enemy is the sole responsible for war
• The chief of the enemy looks like the devil
• We defend a noble cause, not particular interests
• The enemy knowingly causes atrocities, and if we make blunders is involuntarily.
• The enemy uses unauthorized weapons.
• We are suffering very few losses, the losses of the enemy are enormous.
• Artists and intellectuals support our cause.
• Our cause is sacred.
• Those who question our propaganda are traitors
-
Peace Timotheus,
How do you recognize defense war from offensive war ?
In most of the case, the boundary between both is far from obvious. What looks defense war for one party is offensive war for the other.For those who can read French, here is an interesting link
https//fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principes_%C3%A9l%C3%A9mentaires_de_propagande_de_guerre• We don't want war
• The enemy is the sole responsible for war
• The chief of the enemy looks like the devil
• We defend a noble cause, not particular interests
• The enemy knowingly causes atrocities, and if we make blunders is involuntarily.
• The enemy uses unauthorized weapons.
• We are suffering very few losses, the losses of the enemy are enormous.
• Artists and intellectuals support our cause.
• Our cause is sacred.
• Those who question our propaganda are traitors
Peace,
that is why we have Gods criterion to judge by, and he instructs us to judge by it.
He also informs us that it is clear and fully detailed.
I do my best to judge by what god has revealed, the quran is very clear regarding war, of course people may interpret it certain ways, but i believe if you apply the whole of the quran, the whole criterion, then we are judging by what god has revealed..
'....They have healed the brokenness of My people superficially, Saying, 'Peace, peace,' But there is no peace....'
jeremiah 614thats the thing, the world is not in peace!!
people are killing innocent people, raping, oppressing, and transgressing
should we sit here saying peace to each other, when there are people being oppressed saying 'please'..?
im not proposing going we start shouting and going on a 'holy jihad against all infidels', what i am saying is that we must fight oppression, and tyranny. using Gods criterion, in all ways..
-
Peace,
that is why we have Gods criterion to judge by, and he instructs us to judge by it.
He also informs us that it is clear and fully detailed.
I do my best to judge by what god has revealed, the quran is very clear regarding war, of course people may interpret it certain ways, but i believe if you apply the whole of the quran, the whole criterion, then we are judging by what god has revealed..
people are killing innocent people, raping, oppressing, and transgressing
should we sit here saying peace to each other, when there are people being oppressed saying 'please'..?
im not proposing going we start shouting and going on a 'holy jihad against all infidels', what i am saying is that we must fight oppression, and tyranny. using Gods criterion, in all ways..
Peace,
What I wanted to draw attention on is that by twisting the meaning of the words, and with suitable propaganda, any war can be made defensive.
Pretend that the infidels are those who are killing innocent people, raping, oppressing, and transgressing, almost by definition, and you're done you can start a defensive war against them.Understanding of Qur'an itself is not really the issue, correct understanding of the situation is.
-
peace,
definitely i understand your view, and i agree, sadly it is often the case, however anyone who applies the whole quran would, god willing, not be distorting gods words or using parts of it and disregarding parts of it, as both of theese are things that would incur gods anger, as the quran says
peace