UNLAWFUL SEX?
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Lower the gaze is not always possible, just think of the disaster I could cause while driving along the street if I did, and it takes one or two seconds of involuntary glancing to "charge" the sexual frustration.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting this. That could get you killed. Even walking down the street with your head or gaze constantly down will eventually get someone hurt. If everyone did this... well, everyone would be hurt.
And I did not imply on "burqas" and clothing that makes women disappear utterly but simply that which limits the body exposure somewhat. I would say normal modest clothes would do.
A problem is that women, especially young women, have a desire to show the beauty of their bodies, intentionally. It is instinctive and for another it can be annoying for those who do not wish to participate in this primate's interaction. Yes, the question is why a woman wishes to dress in a challenging way to begin with. If it has to do with heat dissipation it requires quite some temperature before you cannot do this with thin fabrics.
I have to agree with you that many women like to show off their bodies, either through a modest or immodest manner. But not all. I'm personally not into showing much cleavage or "exposing" myself - I would prefer to not draw unnecessary attention because of others' sexual attraction, so I would refrain as much as possible from dressing in a way that would sexually arouse someone else. From time to time I do like making myself look beautiful though, as I'm sure most or all women do. (And I do believe women can dress beautifully but still modestly.)
Clothing stores make the modesty problem worse. I live in the United States. A lot of "popular" and "fashionable" clothing items for teens and young women make dressing modestly incredibly difficult for a woman. Shorts and skirts are incredibly short. I don't shop for shorts anymore, but when I did, I rarely found any shorts that covered past 3 inches of my legs. Jeans are skin tight. Tank tops are promoted in the summer. A lot of shirts are designed in such a way that they don't cover your back, chest, or stomach well. I've come across a lot of shirts in stores that are very pretty, but they just barely cover my stomach, or leave most of my back exposed so people can see bra straps, etc.
Peace, and thank you, i too hope so, and god willing, marrigiable righteous women haha. prehaps, god willing, in the future i will emigrate somewhere there is a good community of believers.
I'm not sure such a place exists, or will ever exist...
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I don't think anyone here is suggesting this. That could get you killed. Even walking down the street with your head or gaze constantly down will eventually get someone hurt. If everyone did this... well, everyone would be hurt.
I have to agree with you that many women like to show off their bodies, either through a modest or immodest manner. But not all. I'm personally not into showing much cleavage or "exposing" myself - I would prefer to not draw unnecessary attention because of others' sexual attraction, so I would refrain as much as possible from dressing in a way that would sexually arouse someone else. From time to time I do like making myself look beautiful though, as I'm sure most or all women do. (And I do believe women can dress beautifully but still modestly.)
Clothing stores make the modesty problem worse. I live in the United States. A lot of "popular" and "fashionable" clothing items for teens and young women make dressing modestly incredibly difficult for a woman. Shorts and skirts are incredibly short. I don't shop for shorts anymore, but when I did, I rarely found any shorts that covered past 3 inches of my legs. Jeans are skin tight. Tank tops are promoted in the summer. A lot of shirts are designed in such a way that they don't cover your back, chest, or stomach well. I've come across a lot of shirts in stores that are very pretty, but they just barely cover my stomach, or leave most of my back exposed so people can see bra straps, etc.
I'm not sure such a place exists, or will ever exist...
haha well, by a community of believers realy i mean at least someone else. i understand im probably not going to stumble upon 'the lost world' of believing submitters, but twos company, three is.. a community?. really, for me at least, its not about the number, its just, meeting a single person face to face who understands my beliefs, etc, and also strives to purify themselves, would be a great blessing.
In regards to the other points,
Yes i dont think at all we should be lowering our gaze to that extend, if i recall correctly, either its mentioned afterwards (i may be incorrect i think that is someones injection in brackets i am recalling) or implied that 'lowering the gaze' is 'not staring at women' , maintining a modest gaze.. etcIn terms of clothing, that is understandable, obviously its different for me, being a male, but its also heading more towards that way in mens clothing as well. and i believe that men also should dress modestly. personaly i do much of my clothes shopping at second-hand stores, partly because the style, and immodesty of mainstream clothing is not very good, but also, and mainly because i prefer 100% natural fibre clothes, i.e cotton, linen, silk and i like supporting a fair trade, which i believe buying things from china probably is not. as most labeled clothing is theese days. also you find some great bargains. just the other day i found this lovely custom tailored dinner-jacket kind of thing, looked like it had never even been worn, for a few dollars.
Also i admire, and comend you on your wishes to dress modestly, i think, and i believe God says also, that there is nothing wrong with women dressing beautifully etc, as long as they maintain modesty, in fact, the quran says that we should dress nicely, at least when visiting the Masjid. but i see the earth as Gods Masjid, so where practical i think we should all dress nicely and beautifully when we go out and about in Gods earth. It makes us feel good, and while it is sad in many ways, many people judge us by our appearances, and we should wish to represent ourselves in the best possible way, as believers. Although in saying that, God judges us on our deeds, not on our clothes.
Peace
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Women cannot and should not be made responsible for males urges. It is the males' business to rule their urges and temptations the same way as it is the women's business to rule theirs. In fact male show an uncanny capacity to control themselves when a woman does not interest them for whatever reason, they can cool off like lightening in that case.
Also there is the other part. It is mostly not women who make fashion, fashion is shoved on them. The way women dress is nothing to do with their own interest but with the fashion business and those who make the unwritten rules on society. Why are we made to dress in a particular way otherwise we are not "in" or we are looked at like we were weirds? It is not women who make that, it is mainly men through their dictation of fashions.
And to say that young women like that it is nonsense young women like whatever makes them feel that they are important, just like young men, they build their self esteem and it is mainstream or advertising or the environment which brings down upong them that their self esteem rests on being attractive, very sexually attractive. If you one does not know that one knows nothing and simply takes a ride down the easy and typical road of blaming women for everything.
However, fashion or no fashion still stands that males are responsible for themselves and not any woman is. How can males be taken seriously if they insist that they are in the hands of any cleavage or similar. In the firt place that is not true unless it suits them. And in the second, they are supposed to be rational animals no less so than women. If it is not o they should be legally incapacitated.
Of course it is a fact that women pay far more dearly than males for sexual slips. That is the question. For men it is so easy... They can allow themselves to loose control without sequels. For women, nowadays it is not awfull but still it is far more dangerous for them to fail in the sexual question than for men. That is the question, not cleavage or not cleavage.
Qur'an knows that and shows the example of Yusuf. That is what males should do, think of themselves as people with dignity and self respect and behave likewise and they are quite capable. Urges may be spontaneous, but what people do with them is not so, it is perfectly manegeable. But imposing more duties on women seems to be the greatest urge of all for some people. Women also have urges, but we do not pretend that those shoud be unloaded on other people.
Of course not all women are alike nor all males are alike and each person has his or her own struggles with themselve, but the first step to undertake any struggle is to assume full responsibility for it and not charging some one else for it. That would be neither manly nor useful.
Salaam
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@ timotheus
actually finidng a partner of similar views specially God alone community is something like finding a pin in container of grass...
I also delayed my marriage due to this , now I m thinking in the end I have to get married with some sunni girl iniside family or outside , God knows best , becoz I m nearly 32 I think its time to settle down... I did not encounter any quran alone or God alone girl in my whole life , and people I know are just on this forum.. in real life I never see any girl having views ,
sometime I think its also a test , or I think marriage has nothing to do with faith if we understand eachother its up to us we can decide and understand eacohter on faith and religion , but again problem is this changing a faith for somebody is like death sentence usually people never listen until God want them to understand lol
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@ timotheus
actually finidng a partner of similar views specially God alone community is something like finding a pin in container of grass...
I also delayed my marriage due to this , now I m thinking in the end I have to get married with some sunni girl iniside family or outside , God knows best , becoz I m nearly 32 I think its time to settle down... I did not encounter any quran alone or God alone girl in my whole life , and people I know are just on this forum.. in real life I never see any girl having views ,
sometime I think its also a test , or I think marriage has nothing to do with faith if we understand eachother its up to us we can decide and understand eacohter on faith and religion , but again problem is this changing a faith for somebody is like death sentence usually people never listen until God want them to understand lol
Peace
I understand that, at first when i realised the implications of Gods true Islam, i realised that in that case, i may never be able to get married, something which took a very long time for me to accept. but now i realise that while my desire is strong for a wife, my desire for my lords forgiveness, mercy and acceptance is much stronger, and i would rather have paradise than a hareem of all the women in the world.
In saying that, i am sure there are other believing men and women out there, they need not completely have the same views etc, but as long as they fufill gods criterion for marriage in the quran, it is lawfull to marry them, lawfull for marriage to a believer is anyone who believes in God and does not associate others with God. Also remember that God says 'do not marry polytheist women untill they believe' that they invite us to the fire, while God invites us to his mercy.
It is a test of course, as god says, your spouses and children are a test. everything in this life is. we must remember that this life is but a fraction of time, it is only the illusion of our human exsistence and our impatience that makes it seem long. God tests us with theese things.. what is more important;
Our souls in paradise or in Hell -- or;
Enjoyment of this life with wife, children etc.in saying that, God does say that he will bless the believers in this life and the next, however i think sometimes God saves off giving us our desires, untill we let go of them and realise they are not important in the grand scheme of things..
"Our Lord grant us spouses and children that may be a source of comfort for the eyes, and grant us to be able to lead the righteous"
Peace
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Comrox,
I think you would have the same problem all over the "Western world". Women are in the body programmed to wish to offer the body to be looked upon in order to be confirmed in their ability to sexually attract, it is usually subconscious even if one may say they are not like that. And that is true also for clothes as you can look cute in clothes and I can feel a woman is hijab can also be attractive and the headdress is making her look cute. Many clothes enhance the sex appeal.
As for huruf and men's responsibility, it is not fair to say like that because the sex drive is involuntary even if one wish not to be turned on and the bodily reaction will come autonomously. What I suggested is not an obligation but a courtesy of those who wish to be kind.
Young men may dress immodestly and revealing too obviously, but as far as I know women do not suffer from the same visual trigger as men when getting the eyes on an appealing body. What I know is that women need to think about what the body can do in order to turn on. This kind of thoughts are not necessary for a man but it can come by the exposure of for example skin alone.
There is no blame on women and this is not about blame. It is about logical statements on how things are. Women do have an innate desire to expose the body to trigger arousal, it is biologically "programmed". Men also have biological programming, but in different ways and it is mostly to "show ability"; strength, intelligence, wealth and social status etc. They will dress in a tight T-shirt in order to show muscles, if they have any, and this is to show ability and thus in a different way than women. Other than that reason they will not have any reason to dress more revealing.
What the individual person wishes to do in terms of modesty is up to them, but we do not have to approve of their choice. If more people did show they do not approve of the dress people wear less people would wear it. Everyone have the right to disprove of someone's ways as long as it is a peaceful sanction and does not go overboard.
The reason to do this is to avoid the instinct (satan) and if one does not wish to combat it walk around naked then and have sex from right to left as it would not matter.
Be well
Amenuel -
A lot of nvironment culture in your arguments Mof aout what women are and feel and think and likewise men. eople tend to think and do whatever is easier for the and does not get them "punished" for it. Culture imbues in women the need to be attractive and then at the same time people want that they do not this or that. Like the poet Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz very well stated
Queredlas cual las hac?is
o hacedlas cual las busc?is.It is ridiculou to imbue women that they mas conquer pleasing and then complain that they please too much.
It is the culture of converting women in bodies nd making men ee them or feel them that way the problem, not that the women dress or shatever si covered or unovered the problem. Women do not dress to turn on men but to be successful because they are taught that way to be successful and this age and I suppose all ages worship success.
The logical thing inwomen and men is to dress to look the best possible way without disguising and to be as comfortable as possible. Through the age women have been taught to dress as uncomfortable as possible while disguising thir bodies according to the most proposterous model of beauty.
Nowadays is I think when women can dress and be shoed most comfortably than ever in the west nd certainly most women dress reasonably modest in general without being obsessed simply because i is the most ocmfortbl way to dress.
TV of course is something else, in TV women seem to be another especies of women.
About women not getting aroused, it is the ame as men some do and some don't and you are not disvoering me anything by saying that it is unvoluntary, but controolling it is voluntary. No need to be like dogs. The only difference ltogethr between men dn women is how much they can get away with.
Salaam
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I think its also a game , who wins who lose.. like competition.. attraction and tools used for attraction are attacks on opponent in this matter girls are quite lucky ... their attacks works most of the times.. lol
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Peace all,
I think one important thing to remember is regardless of what everyone else is doing, and what is 'in' 'mainstream' or 'acceptable' in different cultures, We have to follow God, and his system, and not get sucked into anyone elses.
It can be a challenge, I am constantly harrased by family members, and others, who believe that i should just submit to there rules, and critisize me for example, refusing to eat food dedicated to idols, or join in with their idoliatry, or compromise my ideals just to fit in with them, but God instructs us to persevere, This life is all only a test, and as god says believers are the ones who do not fear the critisism of others, but rather fear him.
554 O you who believe, whoever from among you turns away from His system, then God will bring a people whom He loves and they love Him; humble towards the believers, proud towards the rejecters; they strive in the cause of God and do not fear to be blamed by those who blame. This is the grace of God, He bestows it upon whom He wills; God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
688 So do not obey those who deny.
689 They wish that you compromise, so they too can compromise.3175 It is only the devil trying to create fear for his allies, so do not fear them, but fear Me if you are believers.
just a reminder, on the subject of the cultural pressures etc, that we all face in different ways, when we choose to stand out from the crowd and follow Gods path..
Peace
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I think its also a game , who wins who lose.. like competition.. attraction and tools used for attraction are attacks on opponent in this matter girls are quite lucky ... their attacks works most of the times.. lol
For somepeople it may be so, but it is not for many people and it wouldn't be so.
As to girls bing luckier I doubt it very much becaue besides it is a contet in which even if hey"win" girls always loose. It it one of those struggles they should not get into. It is not heir warand it isvery much to heir disadvantage. One here ar there wh may win something is merely an exception.
Salaam
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Peace all,
I think one important thing to remember is regardless of what everyone else is doing, and what is 'in' 'mainstream' or 'acceptable' in different cultures, We have to follow God, and his system, and not get sucked into anyone elses.
It can be a challenge, I am constantly harrased by family members, and others, who believe that i should just submit to there rules, and critisize me for example, refusing to eat food dedicated to idols, or join in with their idoliatry, or compromise my ideals just to fit in with them, but God instructs us to persevere, This life is all only a test, and as god says believers are the ones who do not fear the critisism of others, but rather fear him.
554 O you who believe, whoever from among you turns away from His system, then God will bring a people whom He loves and they love Him; humble towards the believers, proud towards the rejecters; they strive in the cause of God and do not fear to be blamed by those who blame. This is the grace of God, He bestows it upon whom He wills; God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
688 So do not obey those who deny.
689 They wish that you compromise, so they too can compromise.3175 It is only the devil trying to create fear for his allies, so do not fear them, but fear Me if you are believers.
just a reminder, on the subject of the cultural pressures etc, that we all face in different ways, when we choose to stand out from the crowd and follow Gods path..
Peace
Yes that is the way it should be but the thing is that thse who create environment attack childhood and teens. That is when the personality is shaping and when everything is most dangerous for the young. They are out to snatch the younger people and direct them to drugs, sex and senseless fun. At that age people are very vulnerable and know very little and have no experience. So they are easy prey. Of course it is criminal, but At Government level it is allowed or even helped, making things very hard for parents and older people who might help.
So that fighting the environment for those who will make the future it is very, very difficult. How to fight that is the question not whether women dress so and so. People also take drugs that doe not mean that people by nature are drug addicts or prone. ome may be prone, but the problems does not lie there but o the mechanismand those who make function that mechanism to twist people to get into the wrong experiences and desires.
Salaam
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Yes that is the way it should be but the thing is that thse who create environment attack childhood and teens. That is when the personality is shaping and when everything is most dangerous for the young. They are out to snatch the younger people and direct them to drugs, sex and senseless fun. At that age people are very vulnerable and know very little and have no experience. So they are easy prey. Of course it is criminal, but At Government level it is allowed or even helped, making things very hard for parents and older people who might help.
So that fighting the environment for those who will make the future it is very, very difficult. How to fight that is the question not whether women dress so and so. People also take drugs that doe not mean that people by nature are drug addicts or prone. ome may be prone, but the problems does not lie there but o the mechanismand those who make function that mechanism to twist people to get into the wrong experiences and desires.
Salaam
Peace
I agree, and speaking from my own experience, growing up in a toxic environment, it can be, and certainly is still, very hard to break out of. There are extreamly difficult challenges, especialy for parents/caregivers. and sometimes i wonder how we can at all find a way through and attain, and maintain righteousness. But God guides whoever he wills, and whoever wills to be guided, His will is perfect, and he knows us better than we could ever know ourselves. May God guide us all to the straight path, and help us with the tough decisions we have, in this age, where satan is doing his best, or rather worst, and succeeding in misleading much of mankind.Peace
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Huruf,
Irrelevant of cultural values or not the human is an animal and behaves according to instincts. Some bias may be contained in my arguments, but still women act along the lines of what I said.
Be well
Amenuel -
For somepeople it may be so, but it is not for many people and it wouldn't be so.
As to girls bing luckier I doubt it very much becaue besides it is a contet in which even if hey"win" girls always loose. It it one of those struggles they should not get into. It is not heir warand it isvery much to heir disadvantage. One here ar there wh may win something is merely an exception.
Salaam
huruf actually its depend on the person,, I believe if women and man both are honest with each other and honest with God then no body lose nothing...
we usually lose something when our intentions are selfish and we try to play...
but relationship is not a game its something like a life or changing of life....so winning and losing depend on the nature of game...
not only women lose. its man who lose his faith .. if he manage to cheat a women for whatsoever reason,, I know most of the boys just make a relationship with a women for one thing and some of them get in their trap.. but infact they used lies of making them wife. incase if they tell them truth at first place no women will go with these type of man ..
so that's y I told you its all game and in some cases , womens also use males
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Huruf,
Irrelevant of cultural values or not the human is an animal and behaves according to instincts. Some bias may be contained in my arguments, but still women act along the lines of what I said.
Be well
AmenuelI doubt that it is 1900% cent as you say even a 50% or 25% , but the question is why? If that to you is not important then I do not know why we ar ttalking here. If it is so, according to you so just take it as it is and blame nature not women.
It is really a very cheapshot to blame women. Intellectually
it is like Saying the big bad wolf would come and get you only it is not the big bad wolf but the big bad witch. Nothing changes much.Salaam
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peace
Timotheus peace be with you and the mercy of God. 971The believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Those - Allah will have mercy upon them. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise. do not lose faith in finding a believing partner, only those who disbelieve lose faith in the Most Merciful. Have faith, God will give you what you deserve, if you are truthful. God says in Quran that those who already call themselves muslim will be more willing to listen, so look there, even if they do not have a clear understanding, and have many mistakes, as i am sure you do too, If God wills, He will bring you both to the truth and affirm it in your heart.
As for the perverted, let them speak, how will they be recognized if they are not allowed to speak. From the abundance in the heart the mouth speaks.
Comrox if the key to successful marriage is interacting with the opposite sex, then why has the west the highest divorce rate, and they cannot even talk to each other.
The key to a successful marriage is patience, but that is a virtue only of the believers. Be truthful, obedient to God, and accepting of whatever God give us as partner. Economically and physically speaking, not spiritually, because if the partner becomes a disbeliever, there shall be a divorce.
May God increase our knowledge and give us wisdom.
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peace
Timotheus peace be with you and the mercy of God. 971The believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Those - Allah will have mercy upon them. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise. do not lose faith in finding a believing partner, only those who disbelieve lose faith in the Most Merciful. Have faith, God will give you what you deserve, if you are truthful. God says in Quran that those who already call themselves muslim will be more willing to listen, so look there, even if they do not have a clear understanding, and have many mistakes, as i am sure you do too, If God wills, He will bring you both to the truth and affirm it in your heart.
As for the perverted, let them speak, how will they be recognized if they are not allowed to speak. From the abundance in the heart the mouth speaks.
Comrox if the key to successful marriage is interacting with the opposite sex, then why has the west the highest divorce rate, and they cannot even talk to each other.
The key to a successful marriage is patience, but that is a virtue only of the believers. Be truthful, obedient to God, and accepting of whatever God give us as partner. Economically and physically speaking, not spiritually, because if the partner becomes a disbeliever, there shall be a divorce.
May God increase our knowledge and give us wisdom.
Peace,
I do hope in god, and pray as it says in the quran for spouse and children that may be a comfort and a joy, Sometimes it does feel like i am sitting out here on my own though, haha.. i know this is not the case though.
you said this "God says in Quran that those who already call themselves muslim will be more willing to listen"
where is this in the quran? i am unaware of his. and sometimes it seems like they are the ones who are least tolerant to hear, even verses from the quran they claim to believe in..
However i am new, and relatively inexperienced with Islam, i have only realy met a few other sunnis face to face. alot of christians seem willing to listen, and we can have some good discussions, alot of others, however are not so tolerant.. i remember being absolutely shocked when a in-law threatened to get his shotgun out when i told him i was a muslim /
you also said
Comrox if the key to successful marriage is interacting with the opposite sex, then why has the west the highest divorce rate, and they cannot even talk to each other.
maybe i am misunderstanding, but does this staement not answer its self? they are divorcing because there are not interacting with the opposite sex.. i.e not talking to each other.
Peace, and alhamdullilah, very good reminder
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Peace wrkmmn,
Comrox if the key to successful marriage is interacting with the opposite sex, then why has the west the highest divorce rate, and they cannot even talk to each other.
What do you mean by "they cannot even talk to each other"?
On opposite sex interaction, this is what I said
...Young men also need to learn how to have healthy interactions with women. How are you supposed to understand that people are more than their bodies before you speak with them? I've read so many stories of Muslim men and women who marry, and they're so naive. Neither of them understand how to communicate or deal with problems in a relationship, because they've never interacted with the opposite gender before.
The main problem in marriages I've witnessed is in the part I bolded above a lack of communication and/or an inability to deal with problems, for whatever reason.
Of course there is not one thing that makes marriages work or don't work... But I believe communication is the foundation for a lot we experience in life. Good communication emcompasses a lot of what we need listening, empathy, patience, knowing what is the right response to say to people, being able to clearly communicate your needs in a productive manner, understanding your relationship to other people, knowing your own communciation weaknesses, being able to recognize when to apologize, addressing difficult situations or problems as soon as they arrive, etc...
I linked the topics (communication, martial failure, and opposite sex interaction) together, perhaps unjustly, because I feel that if I had spent my life never interacting with men and then I was expected to marry a complete stranger, I wouldn't know what to do with them. I wouldn't know what to expect from them. I would only understand about men what people had told me, if anyone had told me anything at all. If you spend your life interacting with women, you're only going to understand women. If you spend your life interacting with men, you're only going to understand men. Men and women do handle communciation and problems differently. The separation is something I can imagine being engraved into peoples' mind as us vs. them, and that can't be healthy. Islamically, I feel that some people may understand marriage only as far as role expectations goes - The husband and wife both love and care for each other; the wife cooks, cares for children, and obeys her husband; the husband is the financial provider and the leader of the household. They, and many other people, only seem to see what marriage is supposed to be, and don't recognize the many steps it takes to get there.
People need social interaction to build their communciation and social skills. People need opposite sex social interaction to understand and experience the other sex. Healthy social experiences with all kinds of people is needed for good communication development, which is needed for all kinds of relationships and life experiences.
Life is getting more complicated. We have a lot of technology now. We're a changing society. All this technology has both harmed and helped us. Besides that, role are now blurred, finances are an issue for many, and suddenly people have so many choices. People also have a lot of expectations surrounding married life and their spouse. Communication is needed now more than ever.
The key to a successful marriage is patience, but that is a virtue only of the believers. Be truthful, obedient to God, and accepting of whatever God give us as partner. Economically and physically speaking, not spiritually, because if the partner becomes a disbeliever, there shall be a divorce.
May God increase our knowledge and give us wisdom.
If patience is only what believers have, and patience is the key to a successful marriage, why do successful marriages exist between atheists, for example? ???
Where do you derive your understanding that when a partner becomes a disbeliever, a divorce must take place?