Who did read the Gospel, Psalms and the Torah?
-
Peace,
543
But how can they made you their judge, while with them is the torah. In it is the judgement of God. Then they turn away, and those are not with the trusters. Indeed We revealed the torah. In it is a guidance and a light, with it judged the prophets - those who had submitted. To those jews, and the rabbis, and the scribes/scholars, with what they were entrusted of the ordainance of God, and they were witnessess to it. So do not be afraid of the human beings, but fear me. And do not exchange with my verses a small gain. And whoever is not judging with what God has revealed, then those, it is they who are the rejectors.546-48
And we followed over their footsteps with Jesus, son of mary, attesting to what he possessed of the torah, and we gave him the gospel. In it is a guidance, and a light, and a attestation to what he possessed of the torah, and a guidance and advice to the reverant. So let the people of the gospel judge with what God has revealed in it. And whoever is not judging with what God has revealed, then it is those who are the the disobedient transgressors. And we sent down to you the ordinance with the truth, attesting to what you possess of the ordainance, and a witness/keeper/proof over it. So judge between them with what God has revealed and do not follow their desires, when the truth has come to you. To each of you, we have made of you, a law and a clear way, and if God willed, he could have made you one community, however the reason is to test you with what he has given you. So be foremost in the best. To God you all return, and he will inform you of what you differed with it.This is my own interpretation, done sincerely and truthfull as possible, with my limited understanding, i encourage those who seek the truth to verify for themselves everything, and not take my word for it, to seek guidance from their Lord, and understanding of the original Quran.
from theese verses, to me it seems clear, that God is instructing the respective people to judge by what God has revealed in The Book, including the Torah and the Gospel. God would not give an instruction that is impossible to follow, hence they must be intact.
I Believe that the Torah and the Gospel are for the most part intact, God does not give confusing, or misleading instructions. I believe that the problem with the Torah, and the Gospel, lies in the interpretation thereof, and the distortions by certain people, but i believe the Words of God are intact, as we know from the as God is sufficient to protect His revelation (the original revelations of God)
some points of observation
what is the truth from God?
2948-9
And you did not recite from before it from a book, and you did not mark/enscribe it with your right hand, then surely the vain/arogant/false ones have doubted. No! it is clear signs in the minds/hearts of those who have been given knowledge.
In regards to the Torah, i have the following notes
...in reference to the Masoretic Text the word mesorah has a very specific meaning the diacritic markings of the text of the Hebrew Bible and concise marginal notes in manuscripts (and later printings) of the Hebrew Bible which note textual details, usually about the precise spelling of words.
...By long tradition, a ritual Sefer Torah (Torah scroll) could contain only the Hebrew consonantal text ? nothing added, nothing taken away. The Masoretic codices however, provide extensive additional material, called masorah, to show correct pronunciation and cantillation, protect against scribal errors, and annotate possible variants. The manuscripts thus include vowel points, pronunciation marks and stress accents in the text, short annotations in the side margins, and longer more extensive notes in the upper and lower margins and collected at the end of each book....
as if a sign from our lord..
The Hebrew word masorah is taken from the Book of Ezekiel 2037 and means originally "legcuffs"
that is from wikipedia on Masoretic Text..
certainly they have shackled themselves to their own interpretation. Although the Masoretic Text is not the only source of translation of the Bible, it certainly would have a great influence on it, and we know that the original Torah was written without vowels, just like the Quran. I believe the original material is largely intact, but THE INTERPRETATION, may be, and most probably is highly distorted. In my honest understanding, the samaratain pentetauch is likely the most intact copy of the torah we have, as, in my understanding it was the last to adopt legcuffs )
As for which mountain is which, Our Lord knows best.
Peace
"So do not be afraid of the human beings, but fear me"
All praise due to God, Lord of the worlds. Good to be reminded of that!
-
Peace,
543
But how can they made you their judge, while with them is the torah. In it is the judgement of God. Then they turn away, and those are not with the trusters. Indeed We revealed the torah. In it is a guidance and a light, with it judged the prophets - those who had submitted. To those jews, and the rabbis, and the scribes/scholars, with what they were entrusted of the ordainance of God, and they were witnessess to it. So do not be afraid of the human beings, but fear me. And do not exchange with my verses a small gain. And whoever is not judging with what God has revealed, then those, it is they who are the rejectors.546-48
And we followed over their footsteps with Jesus, son of mary, attesting to what he possessed of the torah, and we gave him the gospel. In it is a guidance, and a light, and a attestation to what he possessed of the torah, and a guidance and advice to the reverant. So let the people of the gospel judge with what God has revealed in it. And whoever is not judging with what God has revealed, then it is those who are the the disobedient transgressors. And we sent down to you the ordinance with the truth, attesting to what you possess of the ordainance, and a witness/keeper/proof over it. So judge between them with what God has revealed and do not follow their desires, when the truth has come to you. To each of you, we have made of you, a law and a clear way, and if God willed, he could have made you one community, however the reason is to test you with what he has given you. So be foremost in the best. To God you all return, and he will inform you of what you differed with it.This is my own interpretation, done sincerely and truthfull as possible, with my limited understanding, i encourage those who seek the truth to verify for themselves everything, and not take my word for it, to seek guidance from their Lord, and understanding of the original Quran.
from theese verses, to me it seems clear, that God is instructing the respective people to judge by what God has revealed in The Book, including the Torah and the Gospel. God would not give an instruction that is impossible to follow, hence they must be intact.
I Believe that the Torah and the Gospel are for the most part intact, God does not give confusing, or misleading instructions. I believe that the problem with the Torah, and the Gospel, lies in the interpretation thereof, and the distortions by certain people, but i believe the Words of God are intact, as we know from the as God is sufficient to protect His revelation (the original revelations of God)
some points of observation
what is the truth from God?
2948-9
And you did not recite from before it from a book, and you did not mark/enscribe it with your right hand, then surely the vain/arogant/false ones have doubted. No! it is clear signs in the minds/hearts of those who have been given knowledge.
In regards to the Torah, i have the following notes
...in reference to the Masoretic Text the word mesorah has a very specific meaning the diacritic markings of the text of the Hebrew Bible and concise marginal notes in manuscripts (and later printings) of the Hebrew Bible which note textual details, usually about the precise spelling of words.
...By long tradition, a ritual Sefer Torah (Torah scroll) could contain only the Hebrew consonantal text ? nothing added, nothing taken away. The Masoretic codices however, provide extensive additional material, called masorah, to show correct pronunciation and cantillation, protect against scribal errors, and annotate possible variants. The manuscripts thus include vowel points, pronunciation marks and stress accents in the text, short annotations in the side margins, and longer more extensive notes in the upper and lower margins and collected at the end of each book....
as if a sign from our lord..
The Hebrew word masorah is taken from the Book of Ezekiel 2037 and means originally "legcuffs"
that is from wikipedia on Masoretic Text..
certainly they have shackled themselves to their own interpretation. Although the Masoretic Text is not the only source of translation of the Bible, it certainly would have a great influence on it, and we know that the original Torah was written without vowels, just like the Quran. I believe the original material is largely intact, but THE INTERPRETATION, may be, and most probably is highly distorted. In my honest understanding, the samaratain pentetauch is likely the most intact copy of the torah we have, as, in my understanding it was the last to adopt legcuffs )
As for which mountain is which, Our Lord knows best.
Peace
Did the Quran say that the Torah and the Gospel are not intact anymore?
-
Peace,
543
But how can they made you their judge, while with them is the torah. In it is the judgement of God. Then they turn away, and those are not with the trusters. Indeed We revealed the torah. In it is a guidance and a light, with it judged the prophets - those who had submitted. To those jews, and the rabbis, and the scribes/scholars, with what they were entrusted of the ordainance of God, and they were witnessess to it. So do not be afraid of the human beings, but fear me. And do not exchange with my verses a small gain. And whoever is not judging with what God has revealed, then those, it is they who are the rejectors.546-48
And we followed over their footsteps with Jesus, son of mary, attesting to what he possessed of the torah, and we gave him the gospel. In it is a guidance, and a light, and a attestation to what he possessed of the torah, and a guidance and advice to the reverant. So let the people of the gospel judge with what God has revealed in it. And whoever is not judging with what God has revealed, then it is those who are the the disobedient transgressors. And we sent down to you the ordinance with the truth, attesting to what you possess of the ordainance, and a witness/keeper/proof over it. So judge between them with what God has revealed and do not follow their desires, when the truth has come to you. To each of you, we have made of you, a law and a clear way, and if God willed, he could have made you one community, however the reason is to test you with what he has given you. So be foremost in the best. To God you all return, and he will inform you of what you differed with it.This is my own interpretation, done sincerely and truthfull as possible, with my limited understanding, i encourage those who seek the truth to verify for themselves everything, and not take my word for it, to seek guidance from their Lord, and understanding of the original Quran.
from theese verses, to me it seems clear, that God is instructing the respective people to judge by what God has revealed in The Book, including the Torah and the Gospel. God would not give an instruction that is impossible to follow, hence they must be intact.
I Believe that the Torah and the Gospel are for the most part intact, God does not give confusing, or misleading instructions. I believe that the problem with the Torah, and the Gospel, lies in the interpretation thereof, and the distortions by certain people, but i believe the Words of God are intact, as we know from the as God is sufficient to protect His revelation (the original revelations of God)
some points of observation
what is the truth from God?
2948-9
And you did not recite from before it from a book, and you did not mark/enscribe it with your right hand, then surely the vain/arogant/false ones have doubted. No! it is clear signs in the minds/hearts of those who have been given knowledge.
In regards to the Torah, i have the following notes
...in reference to the Masoretic Text the word mesorah has a very specific meaning the diacritic markings of the text of the Hebrew Bible and concise marginal notes in manuscripts (and later printings) of the Hebrew Bible which note textual details, usually about the precise spelling of words.
...By long tradition, a ritual Sefer Torah (Torah scroll) could contain only the Hebrew consonantal text ? nothing added, nothing taken away. The Masoretic codices however, provide extensive additional material, called masorah, to show correct pronunciation and cantillation, protect against scribal errors, and annotate possible variants. The manuscripts thus include vowel points, pronunciation marks and stress accents in the text, short annotations in the side margins, and longer more extensive notes in the upper and lower margins and collected at the end of each book....
as if a sign from our lord..
The Hebrew word masorah is taken from the Book of Ezekiel 2037 and means originally "legcuffs"
that is from wikipedia on Masoretic Text..
certainly they have shackled themselves to their own interpretation. Although the Masoretic Text is not the only source of translation of the Bible, it certainly would have a great influence on it, and we know that the original Torah was written without vowels, just like the Quran. I believe the original material is largely intact, but THE INTERPRETATION, may be, and most probably is highly distorted. In my honest understanding, the samaratain pentetauch is likely the most intact copy of the torah we have, as, in my understanding it was the last to adopt legcuffs )
As for which mountain is which, Our Lord knows best.
Peace
Have you seen the Oldest written Torah Book?
-
Did the Quran say that the Torah and the Gospel are not intact anymore?
Peace
Nowhere. to my knowledge anyway, God willing, as i progress with my torah study, i will update, however i am juggling alot of differend things, so it may be some time.
In Regards to the oldest written torah copy, as far as my research goes, if i recall correctly the oldest full manuscript is 9th century CE, check out wikipedia, they have pretty good articles of biblical texts, specificaly the masoretic text and the torah wiki pages, also biblical textual critisism, and check out the synoptic gospels as well, also as i understand, the Samaratain Pentetauch (torah) is written in a script that predates the babylonian captivity of israel, so it is possible that it survived intact since then, aside from Kraite Judaism, the Samaratains seem to be the only ones who follow the torah alone (though i may be mistaken).
however all we realy know without doubt, is that God is telling them to bring the torah, and recite it, at the time of muhammad, and says that in it is Gods judgement, and they are to judge by it, so at least we know that the torah was intact and able to be brought and recited in the time of Muhammad.
I believe that God is sufficient to preserve his scriptures though, and besides, we have the quran, and the gospel, and the psalms, if you read them all, and judge by the light of the quran, God willing you will see the truth..
Peace
-
Peace
Nowhere. to my knowledge anyway, God willing, as i progress with my torah study, i will update, however i am juggling alot of differend things, so it may be some time.
In Regards to the oldest written torah copy, as far as my research goes, if i recall correctly the oldest full manuscript is 9th century CE, check out wikipedia, they have pretty good articles of biblical texts, specificaly the masoretic text and the torah wiki pages, also biblical textual critisism, and check out the synoptic gospels as well, also as i understand, the Samaratain Pentetauch (torah) is written in a script that predates the babylonian captivity of israel, so it is possible that it survived intact since then, aside from Kraite Judaism, the Samaratains seem to be the only ones who follow the torah alone (though i may be mistaken).
however all we realy know without doubt, is that God is telling them to bring the torah, and recite it, at the time of muhammad, and says that in it is Gods judgement, and they are to judge by it, so at least we know that the torah was intact and able to be brought and recited in the time of Muhammad.
I believe that God is sufficient to preserve his scriptures though, and besides, we have the quran, and the gospel, and the psalms, if you read them all, and judge by the light of the quran, God willing you will see the truth..
Peace
So why do we think or thought that the Word of God can be destroyed and manipulated.
That's just a wrong belief.
Yesterday i came across some salafis that i know from when i was following salafism blindly. I told them about that i want to follow the Torah, Psalms, Gospel and Quran and that i was reading the Book of Isaiah.
First thing they said, "but the Torah is not the word of God anymore"..
In the end i said that God is Guiding and that the Guidance is God's Guidance, and that every human being is in need of He's Guidance.
And then by He's will i invited them to read the Torah, Psalms and the Gospel !
-
Peace
Nowhere. to my knowledge anyway, God willing, as i progress with my torah study, i will update, however i am juggling alot of differend things, so it may be some time.
In Regards to the oldest written torah copy, as far as my research goes, if i recall correctly the oldest full manuscript is 9th century CE, check out wikipedia, they have pretty good articles of biblical texts, specificaly the masoretic text and the torah wiki pages, also biblical textual critisism, and check out the synoptic gospels as well, also as i understand, the Samaratain Pentetauch (torah) is written in a script that predates the babylonian captivity of israel, so it is possible that it survived intact since then, aside from Kraite Judaism, the Samaratains seem to be the only ones who follow the torah alone (though i may be mistaken).
however all we realy know without doubt, is that God is telling them to bring the torah, and recite it, at the time of muhammad, and says that in it is Gods judgement, and they are to judge by it, so at least we know that the torah was intact and able to be brought and recited in the time of Muhammad.
I believe that God is sufficient to preserve his scriptures though, and besides, we have the quran, and the gospel, and the psalms, if you read them all, and judge by the light of the quran, God willing you will see the truth..
Peace
Yeah, God told us that the Torah contains Guidance and Light.
And the Quran also told Mohammed to let the people of the Gospel judge with the Gospel and what God had Revealed therein. So another huge clue that the Gospel was there at the time of Mohammed.
Some people love to say that the Gospel we have now is not the Gospel anymore, and that there was no Gospel anymore after 60 +/- AD. While there was a Gospel 1400 +/- AD that is confirmed by the Quran..
547 if i can recall from memory.
May our Lord guide us.
-
And i heard that the names of Matt,Mar,Luke,John were not introduced until later.
The Gospel had not such names they say? Just like the chapterheadings of the Quran? They were not there?
-
355 For God said "O Jesus, I will terminate your life, and raise you to Me, and cleanse you of those who have rejected, and make those who have followed you above those who have rejected until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, all of you,so I will judge between you in what it was that you disputed."
*Until the Day of resurrection!
-
355 For God said "O Jesus, I will terminate your life, and raise you to Me, and cleanse you of those who have rejected, and make those who have followed you above those who have rejected until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, all of you,so I will judge between you in what it was that you disputed."
*Until the Day of resurrection!
Peace,
This is a great verse, so many people reject jesus. God made him a sign for all of mankind, and to mark the end times (if i recall correctly), and God certainly made him a catalyst for the whole world. because of this, Missionaries have travelled all over the earth, and bibles are everywhere. sure they might be advocating idol worship, and distorting it. but the truth and guidance and light is still in it, anyone who is sincere, and God wills to guide, will see the truth in it, and the falsehood in it.
A few points to note..
Indeed Matthew, Mark Luke John etc etc are just traditions, similar to the names of the surahs, or there revalation order/place, there is no real way to confirm.
If i recall correctly, prehaps one of the authors mentions himself? as far as i know, none of them were actualy disciples, Also there are variations, one gospel more or less says 'this is a passed on account' from those who witnessed it. and similar things in another. i cant recall exactly. but research it for yourself.
I am not saying that every word in the gospels are true! however, i sincerely believe that the three synoptic gospels must have come from the same source. it seems likely to me that they were oral accounts of the gospel that was given to jesus, we do not know for sure though.
what i am most certainly saying, is that i believe, that the gospel accounts, the words of jesus in them, contain parts of THE gospel (singular) meaning good news, which was given to jesus.
It is the same with the torah, but different again. It is not 100%, there are variations in different copies etc, but again, God is sufficient to preserve from distortion, and he tells those repective people to judge by them.
The biggest key realy, is the interpretation of, and the reading itself. the reading was revealed by God, it was probably written down without vowel sounds, hence there is room for ambiguity, and distorting, hence the referance (if i recall correctly) in the Quran to the jews 'twisting their tounges to distort the deen'..
all the scriptures are faliable because they are written down/translated/etc by faliable human beings. Gods guidance is what we need to see the truth, those i believe that he preserved sufficiently the guidance and light in theese revelations, as he seems to (in my understanding) be saying in the Quran.
2948-9
And you did not recite from before it from a book, and you did not mark/enscribe it with your right hand, then surely the vain/arogant/false ones have doubted. No! it is clear signs in the minds/hearts of those who have been given knowledge. And none are in denial with our signs except the lost ones.
my own interpretation, faliable, and imperfect, but i have sincerely done my best.
"it is clear signs in the minds/hearts of those who have been given knowledge"
also i think your dates are wrong, muhammad was, if i recall correctly in the 600s
one final point to note..
While i admire your curiousity, and that you seem to be very keen to learn, you are asking me to many questions.
seek assistance from your Lord not human beings.
do not follow me! for both of our sakes.
I am only a human being, so was every messenger of God, they followed God alone, and i try my best to, and so should you.
The prophets/messengers did not follow a human translated or interpreted book, they followed the revelations/guidance from their lord
Peace
-
Jafar,
From my perspective, the Gospel is a story about rebellion against religion, the Gospel is among the most anti religious book ever being written. Oddly as time progress it become a "religious book" by itself.
Particularly when Mr. Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me" implying God is who God is, i.e. not a separate phenomenon. Rabb encompasses all those souls who are in the unity. The rest are dead by definition, even Jesus uses the term dead in reference to someone who is not alive in the spirit. Jesus furthermore says that these people are kings (angels = melakat - for the word stems from Miim-Lam-Kaf which is a root meaning "control" and they are kings over the others. This is what these ascended beings called angels are. Jesus is an angel too now, it was what he said himself, he would be a king, but not of this world. He led the way for others to accomplish the same and it was a great mercy of Rabb (everyone of angels combined) to give such a manifest solution to reach salvation from this world.
Some people have managed without help while others have been guided. The truth is not hidden nor manifest, and one needs to contemplate and think a little. Even without Jesus is it possible to contemplate sufficiently and reach to an explanation to this world and what it is.
Each human soul is like a seed of Rabb and it needs to develop into a full-fledged "share" of Rabb. This way the consciousness of Rabb will expand.
There is absolutely no one to worship and there never has been. The only "worship" is to be as "the Father".
And our world cycle is not the only one ever been in existence but there is also one with individuals (shares of Rabb) such as Gabriel and Michael, called controllers/kings by the scriptures. These were successful prospects of the past and they shaped the current test as "angels". It is in 230 and surrounding passages that the amateur interpreters of Quran made to say something else.
Basically we are all contained in Rabb, knowingly or unknowingly, with weak consciousness or strong consciousness.
Be well
Amenuel