Submitter, Believer, Devotee, Disbeliever, Rejecter, Hypocrit
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Peace Submitter,
There is no such thing as a "submitter" according to quranic evidence. That is a deliberate and intentional mistranslation of "muslim" by the "learned ones".
This has been discussed in great detail on this forum in the past especially by Dr. Ayman.
Please see my following posts for the real meaning of "muslimeen" according to the quranic evidence
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607181.msg364073#msg364073
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606989.msg364764#msg364764
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607263.msg364126#msg364126
Following are Dr. Ayman's articles
http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/gods_system/peacefulness.htm
http//www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-English-part2.pdf
Once you know the true meaning then you can start figuring out the differences between the other categories.
Peace
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Peace Submitter,
There is no such thing as a "submitter" according to quranic evidence. That is a deliberate and intentional mistranslation of "muslim" by the "learned ones".
This has been discussed in great detail on this forum in the past especially by Dr. Ayman.
Please see my following posts for the real meaning of "muslimeen" according to the quranic evidence
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607181.msg364073#msg364073
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606989.msg364764#msg364764
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607263.msg364126#msg364126
Following are Dr. Ayman's articles
http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/gods_system/peacefulness.htm
http//www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-English-part2.pdf
Once you know the true meaning then you can start figuring out the differences between the other categories.
Peace
Salam,
These studies don't make any sense. Criminals=Rejecters, disbelievers, and hypocrites.
Submitter is not equal to rejecter, disbeliever or hypocrit.6835 Should We treat those who submitted the same as those who are criminals?
It doesn't make sense to say muslim is peacemaker instead of submitter. There are many rejecters who are peacemakers, just look at the hippies who were against Vietnam war or against corruption in the US...
If muslim is peacemaker in 6835 then it doesn't make sense
6835 "Shall we make peacemakers (al-muslimeen) like criminals (al-mujrimeen)?"
Who are criminals? Criminals=Disbelievers, rejecters, and hypocrites. What do these have in common? They are transgressors, and they don't believe in God or reject God.
While they are transgressors in different ways, there are many among them who are peacemakers.So it makes more sense when muslim=submitter and criminal (in Quran sense)=Disbeliever, rejecter, hypocrit.
One of the characteristic (maybe using wrong word, perhaps trait) of a submitter is peacemaking as this action falls under "good works".
So a submitter (muslim) can be (and most likely will be) a peacemaker, but a disbeliever, rejecter, hypocrit (all three under criminal in Quran) can also be a peacemaker, yet still be a criminal by rejecting God, or persist in sinning like adultery etc.Maybe I misunderstood the context of the word peacemaker. Who do you think the criminals are? The rejecters, disbelievers and hypocrites or criminal like murderer, thief, oppressor, corrupter; which are opposite to peacemaker etc.
Anyway, this isn't what I was looking for. I'm looking for the differences between;
1.Submitters, believers, and devotees
2.Disbelievers, rejecters, and hypocrites.
Salam
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Peace Submitter,
There is no such thing as a "submitter" according to quranic evidence. That is a deliberate and intentional mistranslation of "muslim" by the "learned ones".
This has been discussed in great detail on this forum in the past especially by Dr. Ayman.
Please see my following posts for the real meaning of "muslimeen" according to the quranic evidence
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607181.msg364073#msg364073
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606989.msg364764#msg364764
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607263.msg364126#msg364126
Following are Dr. Ayman's articles
http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/gods_system/peacefulness.htm
http//www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-English-part2.pdf
Once you know the true meaning then you can start figuring out the differences between the other categories.
Peace
= Siin-Lam-Miim = safety/security/freedom/immunity, to escape, salutation/greeting/peace, deliver/acknowledge, pay in advance, submit, sincerity, humility, submission/conformance/obedience, resign/quit/relinquish, to be in sound condition, well without blemish, gentle/tender/soft/elegant. Solomon/Sulaiman.
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peace, this is my understanding
muslim is mu- does/is one of - s l m - acceptance/at peace (of/with) the bond (deen) i.e one who accepts gods laws
kafirun are plural - k f r - covering/concealing (the truth) hence, as quran says they lie to themselves or reject/deny
mu'min is - mu - does/is one of - a/' m n - firm/solid/rock trust/confidence/sureness/truth - hence truster or one who trusts with certainty/without doubt in there lord, also trustworthy or one of trust
munafiqeen - i cannot remember with certainty but if i recall it means something like disease/dishonesty/rotten/corrupt hence one who is of (mu) those things - a hypocrite. i will have to InshAllah, confirm
also the quran does mention that some people 'la amanu' or do not a m n - trust (start of al baqara and other places i think) though i cannot recall exactly.
there is also others like musadeqeen - one of S (saad) d q - truth/trustworthiness/honesty/uprightness
thats all i can remember mashaAllah at this time, and again only reflects my limited understanding, i would encourage everyone too look up the root meaning, and the individual letter meaning and their origin to gain better understanding, as semetic words are so simple in concept,
a word has verbs which alter the emphasis and meaning slighty of there root words which are in turn broken down to smaller roots often or originate from them (i.e 2 consonant roots) which break down to individual consonants/sounds which represent common/basic ideas represented (originaly at least, though barely recognizable now in arabic and modern hebrew etc) by pictograms/picture marks (letters) from there anscestor languages.
for example r is a mans head - representing the head/top/foremost/highest part
and b is a house (bayt) - representing exactly that, but also the concepts of possession or surrounding/inclusion etctherefore rb - or rabb, an ancient word meaning 'the head of the house' - the lord, or sustainer/ provider/ master/ first one of the household, hence ones master is there rabb, in referance to god, he is the sustainer/lord/overseer/provider off THE household, i.e everything.
again im only a human being, faliable by nature, so research for yourself, seek and ye shall find
peace
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p.s muslim does not nessescarily mean ...of the bond, law etc that is inly my understanding of the context we are refferring to.
and it also can mean submission, but i believe this is derived from its base meaning in this context, being peace,acceptance,wholeness etc i.e by being accepting/at peace with you can derive submission to, compliance with etc
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peace, this is my understanding
muslim is mu- does/is one of - s l m - acceptance/at peace (of/with) the bond (deen) i.e one who accepts gods laws
kafirun are plural - k f r - covering/concealing (the truth) hence, as quran says they lie to themselves or reject/deny
mu'min is - mu - does/is one of - a/' m n - firm/solid/rock trust/confidence/sureness/truth - hence truster or one who trusts with certainty/without doubt in there lord, also trustworthy or one of trust
munafiqeen - i cannot remember with certainty but if i recall it means something like disease/dishonesty/rotten/corrupt hence one who is of (mu) those things - a hypocrite. i will have to InshAllah, confirm
also the quran does mention that some people 'la amanu' or do not a m n - trust (start of al baqara and other places i think) though i cannot recall exactly.
there is also others like musadeqeen - one of S (saad) d q - truth/trustworthiness/honesty/uprightness
thats all i can remember mashaAllah at this time, and again only reflects my limited understanding, i would encourage everyone too look up the root meaning, and the individual letter meaning and their origin to gain better understanding, as semetic words are so simple in concept,
a word has verbs which alter the emphasis and meaning slighty of there root words which are in turn broken down to smaller roots often or originate from them (i.e 2 consonant roots) which break down to individual consonants/sounds which represent common/basic ideas represented (originaly at least, though barely recognizable now in arabic and modern hebrew etc) by pictograms/picture marks (letters) from there anscestor languages.
for example r is a mans head - representing the head/top/foremost/highest part
and b is a house (bayt) - representing exactly that, but also the concepts of possession or surrounding/inclusion etctherefore rb - or rabb, an ancient word meaning 'the head of the house' - the lord, or sustainer/ provider/ master/ first one of the household, hence ones master is there rabb, in referance to god, he is the sustainer/lord/overseer/provider off THE household, i.e everything.
again im only a human being, faliable by nature, so research for yourself, seek and ye shall find
peace
May the Peace be with you,
Can you share the root-dictionaries that you use?
May our Lord guide us.
Peace!
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Peace Submitter,
Well, linguistically you are absolutely wrong. Muslim cannot mean "submitter" linguistically. It is related to salam which means peace. Please see the following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14280.msg129976#msg129976
Unless when you say "salamun alaik" to someone you actually mean "submission be upon you"
The meaning of "peace" is a common theme in all forms derived from SLM but "submission" is not. This is a fact. The Arabic word for submit is "sajad" and submission is "sujud". When people tell you "salamu 3alaykum", no one would claim that it means "submission be upon you".
Saying "islam" is submission to will of God is false. There is no "will", "of" or "God" in the word "islam". This is a completely false made up meaning. If you insist on translating "islam" as "submission" then you cannot add all these made up meanings that are not part of the word. As you are aware, "submission" by itself is incomplete and can mean anything, including a sexual fetish. Submitter can be a submitter to the devil. The quran says muslimeen, and never muslimeen lillah. Peacemaking, however, is complete by itself.
Feel free to pm Dr. Ayman who is a professor of Arabic and an Arabic linguistic expert and discuss this linguistic aspect with him. You can also pm Samia who is an incredible Arabic linguistics expert
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1611
A "submitter" can be a hypocrite as well. A hypocrite will perform every action of a "submitter" on the surface, while being a hypocrite. For example a spy of the "kuffar" who infiltrates the "submitters", pretending to be a "submitter", will do all the acts of a "submitter" to deceive them.
A peacemaker can never deceive, because he/she cannot be a criminal at the same time as being a peacemaker by definition. Additionally a peacemaker makes peace with the infinite Creator as well as the creation so can never be a hypocrite or rejector or disbeliever of the Truth by definition.
People can dislike something and yet submit to it. So you can "submit with full submission" while disliking it. On the other hand, you have to peacefully surrender fully or be fully at peace with a decision in order to really like it.
"Peacefulness" in 2208 makes perfect sense and is complete and sufficient while "submission" is incomplete and leaves the reader wondering. In 4735 and 861 the meaning of "peace" is indisputable and substituting "submission" results in nonsense.
Peace
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May the Peace be with you,
Can you share the root-dictionaries that you use?
May our Lord guide us.
Peace!
peace, first and foremost i try to seek understanding from God, just ask! sometimes i just read, looking at the context, and a concept comes into my mind. this is how human beings naturaly learn or are taught by god.
'recite in the name of your lord who created. created man from an embryo, recite and your lord is Noble, he who taught with the pen, taught man what he did not know. No! but indeed man transgresses, in that he sees himself self sufficient'
surah al alaq (99 i think) 1-7
who teaches the quran?
The Gracious, he taught the quran.
surah 57? i think, (al-rahman, 1-2)then, i use the context first, looking at other verses with that word sometimes, and when i still doubt, or am unsure, i use the mawrid reader(linked from project root list) and try and look as in depth as i can, from all the material there.
'we made the quran easy to remember, does anyone wish to remember?)
this is repeated like 15 or so times in the surah(cant recall which one)
there are only 22 give or take original semetic letters, for example ja Ha and kha all come from the same origin, in my understanding, theese letters all have a base meaning, and many of the ancient words, just use one or two of theese letters, sometimes with the weak consonants (ya ha alif waw) which change the meaning slightly, or another consonant added. theese words all are similar, and share concepts with variations.
arabic is also so precise and predictable, many if not most words are derived from verbs, which follow certain patterns and formulas, so as god says he made it easy to remember!
peace, seek help from god alone!
'do not hasten with it, upon us is its collection, and its recall' or along those lines, as i remember
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peace, first and foremost i try to seek understanding from God, just ask! sometimes i just read, looking at the context, and a concept comes into my mind. this is how human beings naturaly learn or are taught by god.
'recite in the name of your lord who created. created man from an embryo, recite and your lord is Noble, he who taught with the pen, taught man what he did not know. No! but indeed man transgresses, in that he sees himself self sufficient'
surah al alaq (99 i think) 1-7
who teaches the quran?
The Gracious, he taught the quran.
surah 57? i think, (al-rahman, 1-2)then, i use the context first, looking at other verses with that word sometimes, and when i still doubt, or am unsure, i use the mawrid reader(linked from project root list) and try and look as in depth as i can, from all the material there.
'we made the quran easy to remember, does anyone wish to remember?)
this is repeated like 15 or so times in the surah(cant recall which one)
there are only 22 give or take original semetic letters, for example ja Ha and kha all come from the same origin, in my understanding, theese letters all have a base meaning, and many of the ancient words, just use one or two of theese letters, sometimes with the weak consonants (ya ha alif waw) which change the meaning slightly, or another consonant added. theese words all are similar, and share concepts with variations.
arabic is also so precise and predictable, many if not most words are derived from verbs, which follow certain patterns and formulas, so as god says he made it easy to remember!
peace, seek help from god alone!
'do not hasten with it, upon us is its collection, and its recall' or along those lines, as i remember
yes, and it's repeated 4 times to be exact brother in faith?
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yes, and it's repeated 4 times to be exact brother in faith?
I see. prehaps i was thinking of something else.. there is a surah that talks about the previous messengers, how there people denied and were destoryed, and repeats a warning or admonision many times, if i recall, i cant remember which one. not surah al-rahman though i am thinking of a different one. but i could be completely mistaken
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Please see my following posts for the real meaning of "muslimeen" according to the quranic evidence
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607181.msg364073#msg364073
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606989.msg364764#msg364764
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607263.msg364126#msg364126
While I would be a "small M" Muslim by your defintion, I still feel uncomfortable calling myself a Muslim (either small or capital M) as I am still getting acquainted with the Quran. My family is also quite Islamophobic and believe most Muslims to be like ISIS, so I can't just say to them "I am a Muslim" or they'd probably disown me.
Even though you say that "submitter" is a mistranslation, I feel it fits my current circumstance. I am trying as hard as I can to submit to the will of God the best I can in my circumstances. It's early days, but I'm growing in my appreciation of the Quran and the other scriptures day by day.
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While I would be a "small M" Muslim by your defintion, I still feel uncomfortable calling myself a Muslim (either small or capital M) as I am still getting acquainted with the Quran. My family is also quite Islamophobic and believe most Muslims to be like ISIS, so I can't just say to them "I am a Muslim" or they'd probably disown me.
Even though you say that "submitter" is a mistranslation, I feel it fits my current circumstance. I am trying as hard as I can to submit to the will of God the best I can in my circumstances. It's early days, but I'm growing in my appreciation of the Quran and the other scriptures day by day.
Peace,
Yea i am more carefull now to try and avoid the misconception.. i had one occasion when i told an in-law i am a muslim, and he threatened to go and get his shotgun, and then preceeded to rip into me about shariah and ISIS and whatever else people blindly get spoonfed on the TV.
As muslims we should try our best to make peace, and often, when confronted with the word 'muslim' or 'islam' many people get scared or angry or otherwise disturb the peace, so i personaly try best to judge the situation as to how to explain certain things to people. in saying that I am not ashamed of islam, or of God, and i make it clear when needed what i try and stand for. and my family/freinds/coworkers already pretty much disowned me, or worse, dont, and just treat me like im mentaly ill, or have lost it. lol
Peace.
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Peace The Celt,
While I would be a "small M" Muslim by your defintion, I still feel uncomfortable calling myself a Muslim (either small or capital M) as I am still getting acquainted with the Quran. My family is also quite Islamophobic and believe most Muslims to be like ISIS, so I can't just say to them "I am a Muslim" or they'd probably disown me.
Even though you say that "submitter" is a mistranslation, I feel it fits my current circumstance. I am trying as hard as I can to submit to the will of God the best I can in my circumstances. It's early days, but I'm growing in my appreciation of the Quran and the other scriptures day by day.
Abraham was one of the "muslimeen" meaning he was a peacemaker, even when there was no quran. Therefore you can be a "muslim"/peacemaker even without any access to the quran. Abraham never called himself a "muslim" but he might have called himself whatever the equivalent word was in his language. You can call yourself a "peacemaker" which would be the same in English, as long as you are not a criminal.
"Peacemaker" is complete by itself; you don't need to add anything to it to explain what you are saying. "Submitter", on the other hand, is not complete and needs other words to be added to explain what you are saying (submitter to what?), which are not present in the common noun descriptive word "muslim". Otherwise someone might misunderstand you as mentioning a sexual fetish or submitter to the devil!
Additionally "muslim" cannot mean "submitter" according to Arabic linguistics and according to quranic evidence mentioned in my last post. You can try hard to make peace with the infinite Creator.
Peace