Joining the US Army/AirForce
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Yo what up Pac? Finnaly i found someone who loves 2Pac as much as i do and can actually understand the message he lived and died for. What drives me crazy is that some people just don't understand his message and don't even want to bother because they call him a "Thug" and all that if you know what i mean. I love 2Pac and his message. It was all about standing up for yourself against oppression. I would love to discuss his message with you sometime.
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Peace brother Zlatan,
Ayman, how US are paying their army? is it the money of/from tax-payers or they borrowed the money from other country or from the banks, or they simply stamp the money as they needed it?
As far as i know US have no gold basis for each and every of the dollars they stamp/produce ? however i dont know if this gold standard is applied anywhere in the world...
Brother, the following is the definition of Petrodollars
http//www.georgetown.edu/faculty/oweissi/petrod/define.htm
The following is an example of an article discussing the economic issues and that was originally written before the Iraq war
http//www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html
The following is an article by the US military that attempts to discredit the above article
http//www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/nov03/middleEast.asp
If you read between the lines, you will see that it actually doesn't.
ayman, tell me also about the verse 4825, how do you translate it and do you think if it has anything to do with ocassional(
unnintentionalas a side efect of for example bombing) killing of innnocent?FM translation goes
They are the ones who rejected and barred you from the Restricted Temple, and barred your donations from reaching their destination. And there had been believing men and women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have committed a sin unknowingly. God will admit into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those of them who rejected with a painful retribution.
I would translate it as follows
- They are the ones who rejected and barred you from the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction (barred you from government), and the gifts/goods blocked (trade embargo) from reaching their destination. And had there not been faithful men and women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have committed a sin unknowingly. The God admits into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those of them who rejected with a painful retribution.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman
- They are the ones who rejected and barred you from the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction (barred you from government), and the gifts/goods blocked (trade embargo) from reaching their destination. And had there not been faithful men and women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have committed a sin unknowingly. The God admits into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those of them who rejected with a painful retribution.
Ayman, thanks very much for the links and for the translation....but tell me what do you think, having this verse in mind together with 4824(the god has prevented your hands from them) does this all mean that the faithfull have intentionally stoped the military action eventhough they have almost won the battle from the fear that they might kill some inoccent and believeing people?
Peace and all best wishes, Zlatan
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Yo what up Pac? Finnaly i found someone who loves 2Pac as much as i do and can actually understand the message he lived and died for. What drives me crazy is that some people just don't understand his message and don't even want to bother because they call him a "Thug" and all that if you know what i mean. I love 2Pac and his message. It was all about standing up for yourself against oppression. I would love to discuss his message with you sometime.
PEACE
Likewise brother glad to meet someone who into Pac as much as me. Yeh many people are quick to judge superstars negatively but Pac replied intuitively with his track called ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE ME, it was very well said by the brother in reply to all the haters out there. Everyone sins and no ones perfect but Pac's message was strong and is still being used and appreciated by many.
PM me or something or we can always make a separate thread here possibly in the TRASH section as thats where it will be moved anyway and post lyrics from his positive tracks/poetry or something and discuss them in there.
PEACE
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Brother, the following is the definition of Petrodollars
http//www.georgetown.edu/faculty/oweissi/petrod/define.htm
The following is an example of an article discussing the economic issues and that was originally written before the Iraq war
http//www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html
The following is an article by the US military that attempts to discredit the above article
http//www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/nov03/middleEast.asp
If you read between the lines, you will see that it actually doesn't.
Ayman i have finished reading of these revealing articles and have enriched my knowledge and perspective abundantly...is there any recomanded reading on the topic?
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THERE ARE A LOT OF EXTERMIST SUNNIS OUT THERE WHO ARE SCUMS OF THE EARTH. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD. AMERICA ZINDAABAAD.
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Greetings and peace, all group
Wow, WAY old topic. Still, I'd like to comment, for the benefit of any who might read.
I came to Islam while serving in the United States Army National Guard. Haters gonna hate. O0
I joined the military so that I might help others in emergencies (tornados, floods, earthquakes, etc), and also help when called upon for national defense. In all countries, there is a need for a military. If you don't like the United States, don't live here--but don't get butthurt that others DO live here, DO like it and DO serve in the military. In fact, there are thousands of muslims in the United States armed forces.
By being in the military, muslims not only serve the public good (help others), but also make sure that abuses do not take place. Muslim servicemembers demonstrate that muslims are loyal to their country and their faith--and can even invite others to monotheism (when asked about Islam). My experience has been overall positive, and I've done nothing that jeopardizes my faith. United States military does NOT equal aggression.
Not all servicemembers carry weapons. Chaplains don't--and muslim chaplains are in high demand. Medical personnel usually carry only sidearms for personal protection--much as I do in the civilian world. There are also State Defense Forces (SDF) that don't carry weapons (and don't deploy).
There is a Peace Corps that does go overseas but doesn't carry weapons. There are a wide variety of charities and organizations that a person can join to help others. Doctors Without Borders, Red Crescent, etc etc.
For those who say that muslims shouldn't join the military, I ask you to ask yourselves "What am I doing to help others?" If you aren't doing anything for other people, now is a great time to start! By dissuading others from joining the military, you could be preventing them from helping others. If you aren't doing anything at all, you strongly resemble a hypocrite. ignore
There are certain realities to the military. In the United States, an enlistment is eight years--it might only be one year active duty--but you are subject to recall and deployment for the next seven. I'd say that you can count on being deployed if you join. You'll have other servicemembers fear you and treat you differently because you are muslim--but many opinions will change as you set a good example. You will be well trained, well equipped, and well paid with good benefits. You'll also be challenged, be misunderstood, and face hardships. It isn't for everybody, but it is of great benefit to many.
If you are a good person, you will probably be a good servicemember. If you are a bad person--please don't join any of the uniformed services!
PM's invited!
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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I was wondering, are we allowed to join the military of a non-muslim nation? I live in the US and I really want to go into the Air Force after college but I don't know if its Islamically OK to join a military that you know will be against certain Muslim nations. Any input on this subject? BTW, I am seriously considering it.
Salaam alaikum.
Its like joining the the forces of Firawn/Pharaoh.
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If you are a good person, you will probably be a good servicemember. If you are a bad person--please don't join any of the uniformed services!
Even if you are a good person and do your job well, you are still participating in and actively supporting an organization which kills, maims and oppresses the innocent on a daily basis. Even if you personally don't shoot at others, you are helping others do the actual shooting, no matter what your job within the armed forces happens to be. By making yourself subject to the chain of command you are shirking your moral responsibility for your actions. If the president tells his generals who tell their colonels who tell their captains who tell you to go kill somebody, will you do it? What if you participated in killing a believer? Do you think God will forgive you your trespasses on judgement day because you were only following orders handed down by people who outranked you?
I'm not being "butthurt" here, but if you don't see the disconnect between serving God and willfully serving in the U.S. military I don't know what to tell you. Jingoism aside, what are your arguments for actually making the world a better place by your choice of employer? Any good the U.S. military has ever done must be viewed in relation to the bad things it as done.
I'm not a pacifist. I recognize there are situations where righteous people are allowed and have a duty to defend themselves violently against unjust attackers. Being a volontary stooge for empire has nothing to do with such a struggle, but rather leads to the kind of oppression that might necessitate it. You are on the wrong side of history, brother. Your side has all the money to buy all those cool toys, but it's still a force used for oppression, and you are supporting it. No matter what training, money and benefits they give you for your participation it seems like a devil's bargain to me.
Peace peace
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For those who say that muslims shouldn't join the military, I ask you to ask yourselves "What am I doing to help others?" If you aren't doing anything for other people, now is a great time to start! By dissuading others from joining the military, you could be preventing them from helping others. If you aren't doing anything at all, you strongly resemble a hypocrite. ignore
~Abdul-HadiPeace Abdul
From one former soldier to another, salute.
Many of us who join the military in peacetime do it for just that what you say, to help and service others. Not many people realize that for one soldier holding a rifle there are ten not holding one. Not many people realize that most soldiers are pacifists, they hate war. The war lovers are hopefully filtered out in the interviews before joining.
You happen to have been a soldier in a military many people blame for a lot of bad things in the world. Some are justified, some not. The unjustified is the US military being potraited as a mean and oppressing military. Both you and me know that war is not pretty, and it doesnt matter who is in charge or who is doing the fighting or for what reason, it doesnt change. The civilians will always be the victims. Not ever in the history of mankind has it been different. The side with the upper hand will always be seen as the oppressor, which is the reality of the situation and true. In a fight the strongest will win, and he will do so by oppressing his enemy.
The justified blame is the somehow sketchy reasons for the US reason for war in the first place. WMD ring any bell?I think it is absolutely necessary for you as muslim to be a US soldier. Why? Well we need to face the reality of the situation. First, the US has declared war on terrorism. Second, the john doe of the world cannot or has difficulty to differentiate between islam and terrorism. Third, John Doe is in the military. Who is the one to teach him the difference between terrorism and Islam? Yeah sure we can leave it up to our "responsible" leaders to do that, but I would rather myself, as a muslim, teach him about me. You are the ambassador of Islam. You must stand up and teach, if necesary rectify your brothers in arms if there is any hint, even the tiniest one, that the US war on terrorism is misinterpreted as war on Islam. You know what I am talking about, brother. It is so easy for a soldier to start fighting for the wrong cause. A soldier is trained to obey order and he will not think too long and hard of the reasons for fighting. After all, whatever his closest in command thinks, so will he. The soldier is the one holding the rifle. He is the one who has the power. He is the one that needs to know that killing another person is not OK because of religion. You must show them that whatever the political or military leaders say (or not say), the muslim man or woman is not the enemy. Right now muslims are more than ever needed in the US military. They must see to it that the US war on terrorism is never to become religious. We leave that to the other side.
That being said, I agree with Magnus on a theological level. If you willingly participate in the oppression of another person for the wrong reasons you are going against the law of Allah.
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Here is my two cents
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If you kill a human being (take a life) be sure that it is justified because if not on the day of judgment his blood will be on your hands
(i.e. If you murdered an innocent person you will be guilty of murder) -
In the Western Military There Is no Questions and Answers. There are Orders and Commands.
If you are Ordered to take out an "enemy" force, and you feel that the force many not really be an enemy...and perhaps may be an innocent person,
There is no arguing back to the authorities. Its plain and simple Follow your Orders and Commands.
In Islam you do not kill someone is accused of being a criminal. There are Fair Trials and Rules of Engagement/treatment.
In Western War there is no Trial, Hearing, or questioning, again there is simply Following Orders.If you are content with Following Orders and Commands and unconditionally-submitting to Human Authority, and are content with having innocent blood on your hands on the day of judgment...then by all means do what you feel is right.
In my humble opinion, You should not kill or risk killing innocent people so Walmart, McDonnalds, and other corporations can have more global dominance.
oh and by the way.... I am sure it sucks fighting in a war against "Enemies" who have been sold weapons by the same manufacture that provided you with weapons. nope -
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Salam,
If I may add my views on this...
By simply living in the US or being a US citizen, people are sbject to an income/sales "tax" which is the money that fuels the government and by extension the massive war machine that is the US military. Threfore, I see that the objection about joining the military if you are in the US is irrelevant on moral grounds since your tax dollars are already at work right now bombing some poor villigers somewhere and then calling them "AlQaeda".
Rather, the question for Muslims in the US should be a) can I emigrate to a land where I will not be participating in wrongdoings, b) can I remain where I am and "minimize" my contribution to the government and war machine, c) can I remain and contribute to the government an its war machine, because I have a bigger influence/ability in spreading the message of monotheism and God alone if I stay rather than leave.
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I won't fight for him, I'll fight for my country.
You do not need to lie to yourself. You will be fighting for war profiteers, for the Military Industrial Complex, for big corporations, such as oil and construction. Fighting for your country is not destroying little poor countries with no significant threats to your country!
You will be used and then most likely be discarded with severe emotional problems and perhaps physical handicappes. See how many homeless veterans out there? Be all you can be, but never not join the killing machine of the empire.
As for the "muslim countries"... Which country are you talking about? Sweden? Norway? If you meant those countries, I would not have much objection.
Peace,
Edip -
Greetings and peace, all group
My comments in red
Here is my two cents
- If you kill a human being (take a life) be sure that it is justified because if not on the day of judgment his blood will be on your hands
(i.e. If you murdered an innocent person you will be guilty of murder)
Of course! All the more reason to be careful. I do distinguish between accident and deliberate--unless you would call the victim of a car crash murdered. There are inherent risks in the military, but there is also a wider opportunity to do good works.
- In the Western Military There Is no Questions and Answers. There are Orders and Commands.
If you are Ordered to take out an "enemy" force, and you feel that the force many not really be an enemy...and perhaps may be an innocent person,
There is no arguing back to the authorities. Its plain and simple Follow your Orders and Commands.
It is true that the military operates with the use of orders and commands. I must point out that military personnel are only obligated to follow lawful commands. It is an unlawful command to "engage" a "target" without positive ID. There is actually an obligation for military personnel to actively disobey unlawful orders. Further, muslims in the military can be in a good position to give orders/commands themselves and even positively influence others.
You've singled out western military; how do you think non-western militaries operate? Here's how many non-western militaries operate always with orders and commands, often with brutality, and seldom with the care of the United States military.
In Islam you do not kill someone is accused of being a criminal. There are Fair Trials and Rules of Engagement/treatment.
In Western War there is no Trial, Hearing, or questioning, again there is simply Following Orders.Do you believe that United States armed forces shoot accused criminals? This isn't true. In Iraq and Afghanistan, trials are held only by the government--the supposedly "islamic" government. The "following orders" defense didn't work at the Nuremberg Trials, and it isn't valid today either. I suppose that in non-Western War, things are all cute and cuddly? Amirite? You'd be surprised to learn just how well trained United States servicemembers are regarding ROF (rules of force) and ROE (rules of engagement) and how very detailed these instructions are. This is quite unlike suicide bombers, who I would call an enemy to all that is good in the world--regardless of their misplaced intentions.
If you are content with Following Orders and Commands and unconditionally-submitting to Human Authority, and are content with having innocent blood on your hands on the day of judgment...then by all means do what you feel is right.
If you have any form of government where you live, you have submitted to human authority. Like it or not, you too follow orders and commands of an earthly nature. There is a huge difference between a professional servicemember and a murderer. The "unconditionally" in your statement is hyperbole. peace I unconditionally submit to Allah alone.
In my humble opinion, You should not kill or risk killing innocent people so Walmart, McDonnalds, and other corporations can have more global dominance.
oh and by the way.... I am sure it sucks fighting in a war against "Enemies" who have been sold weapons by the same manufacture that provided you with weapons. nopeDon't like capitalism much? ignore LOL. Enjoy whatever form of government you enjoy best; I sincerely wish you peace and prosperity. You won't have enjoy either for long without the capability of self defense; in the modern world, this means that your country will require a military. Corporations benefit from war, but I'm not so sure that they perpetuate war. Look, I'm not saying that I unconditionally agree with United States foreign policy. Many (if not most) servicemembers feel the same way. War/conflict sucks regardless of the circumstances or weapons involved. Your troll-fu is weak.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
- If you kill a human being (take a life) be sure that it is justified because if not on the day of judgment his blood will be on your hands
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Rather, the question for Muslims in the US should be a) can I emigrate to a land where I will not be participating in wrongdoings, b) can I remain where I am and "minimize" my contribution to the government and war machine, c) can I remain and contribute to the government an its war machine, because I have a bigger influence/ability in spreading the message of monotheism and God alone if I stay rather than leave.
I'll take option C, please. Change must come within the ranks. You must have power to change, you must earn their respect before they will listen to you. If one stands idly by the side with a grumpy look nobody will take you seriously. If you are, in the eyes of the blind, trying to sabotage by minimizing your contribution, then you will invite them to dislike you. And then they will certainly not listen to you.
- In the Western Military There Is no Questions and Answers. There are Orders and Commands.
If you are Ordered to take out an "enemy" force, and you feel that the force many not really be an enemy...and perhaps may be an innocent person,
There is no arguing back to the authorities. Its plain and simple Follow your Orders and Commands.
Dear RA786
Please be a bit more specific when you write "Western Military". You are generalizing/you have no idea what you are talking about.
- In the Western Military There Is no Questions and Answers. There are Orders and Commands.
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Greetings and peace, all group
My comments in red
You do not need to lie to yourself. You will be fighting for war profiteers, for the Military Industrial Complex, for big corporations, such as oil and construction. Fighting for your country is not destroying little poor countries with no significant threats to your country!
War profiteers attach to any conflict, but are not the root cause. Did these "poor little countries" do anything that might have prompted their invasion/occupation? The United States could relatively easily utterly destroy any "little poor country" but does not do so. The United States helped Japan and Germany rebuild after WWII, and is attempting to help Iraq and Afghanistan even now. Is it in the national interest of the United States to pour blood and treasure into these countries? hmm
Afghanistan might not be a significant threat to the United States, but they sure as hell harbored folks that attacked us. No free pass for the actions of the former Taliban government of Afghanistan because it is a small poor country that despised us. In my opinion, United States involvement in Afghanistan is 100% justified--but might not be smart. Iraq was an aggressive country that refused to play by international rules. I freely admit that (in my opinion) military operations in Iraq are not as justifiable as Afghanistan. Iraq balanced Iran, and that balance no longer exists.
You will be used and then most likely be discarded with severe emotional problems and perhaps physical handicappes. See how many homeless veterans out there? Be all you can be, but never not join the killing machine of the empire.
All combat veterans, whether they admit it or not, have some form of PTSD--usually mild and temporary. It is an occupational hazard! However, support for servicemembers and their families has vastly improved since the Vietnam war. Not every thing that is worthwhile is easy or risk free. yes
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and peace, all group
My comments in red.
Even if you are a good person and do your job well, you are still participating in and actively supporting an organization which kills, maims and oppresses the innocent on a daily basis. Even if you personally don't shoot at others, you are helping others do the actual shooting, no matter what your job within the armed forces happens to be. By making yourself subject to the chain of command you are shirking your moral responsibility for your actions. If the president tells his generals who tell their colonels who tell their captains who tell you to go kill somebody, will you do it? What if you participated in killing a believer? Do you think God will forgive you your trespasses on judgement day because you were only following orders handed down by people who outranked you?
I take full responsibility for all of my actions. I would never use "following orders" as an excuse. On the other hand, I don't obey unlawful orders.
I'm not being "butthurt" here, but if you don't see the disconnect between serving God and willfully serving in the U.S. military I don't know what to tell you. Jingoism aside, what are your arguments for actually making the world a better place by your choice of employer? Any good the U.S. military has ever done must be viewed in relation to the bad things it as done.
For me, there is no disconnect. A good action is a good action. I am not the Judge of whatever bad has been done in the past. How would you suggest improving things? Criticize them and do nothing? Ignore that problems exist in the first place? Positive change has to start somewhere. Is good ever futile, in your opinion?
I'm not a pacifist. I recognize there are situations where righteous people are allowed and have a duty to defend themselves violently against unjust attackers. Being a volontary stooge for empire has nothing to do with such a struggle, but rather leads to the kind of oppression that might necessitate it. You are on the wrong side of history, brother. Your side has all the money to buy all those cool toys, but it's still a force used for oppression, and you are supporting it. No matter what training, money and benefits they give you for your participation it seems like a devil's bargain to me.
If you believe (as I do) that the September 11 attacks were carried out by OBL, then military operations in Afghanistan can hardly be viewed as oppression. I'd say, more like self defense. Attacking Iraq is less justifiable, but can be justified (poorly). I won't feel bad when the United States leaves either country, except perhaps for the exploited populaces of those countries. To me, the systems vying for control of those countries (among many others) are far more oppressive than the presence of the United States. I don't make national policy. Perhaps the problem is not that muslims are in the United States armed services, but rather there aren't MORE muslims serving. As a thought experiment, how different do you think the United States military would be if it was all muslim? Food for thought, isn't it? sun
Peace peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and peace, all group
That being said, I agree with Magnus on a theological level. If you willingly participate in the oppression of another person for the wrong reasons you are going against the law of Allah.
True that. I agree with both of you in this matter--how could I not? It is all the more reason for me to take care in my actions. The greater the power, the greater the responsibility (and the heavier the burden of consequences for misuse).
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
