War And Islam

parvez_mushtaq

Ancient Roman Empire 2.0

You are correct ,jafar
Christians are not following true Abrahamic faith .their doctrines were adulterated by Romans and still they believe in pagan concept of trinity which had its roots from Romans .moreover they are brutally killing people for the past 2000 years

There is also historical reports that Muslim rulers wiped out entire settlements.

Of course, and also being wiped out...

Live by the sword, die by the sword..
Everybody shall get what they deseved...

stupid humans killing each other from the day one of the history
but religion plays a focal part even in wars .for example ,if you have watched that video, they took great pride in killing innocent people .it was the fault of their religion or it is that they were atheist .In both cases ,it was the hatred and suspicion which made them to kill innocent people .what we have witnessed is drop from an ocean.there must have been a ocean of such killings .
Under this circumstances , Islam plays a main role .suppose ,those soldiers were Muslims and they are very well equipped with the verses i had mention in my OP ,the verses forbidding hatred and suspicion .definitely they would not have committed that shameful act and thus innocent people might have been saved .Islam solve each and every problem , jafar .

parvez_mushtaq

Really? On which planet are you living on?
I heard those hundred of times on the Friday sermons...

http//shoebat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/aradawialJazeera9janvier2009vi-vi.jpg

True , it is nothing but a curse .it is a reaction .they see lot of Palestine being killed and helplessly they are cursing

In the past, up to the era of Ottoman Turks, it's true.. Jews find safe refuge in Islamic kingdom..

Having said that it doesn't mean that "Islamic Kingdom" doesn't perform atrocities to other ethnic groups... (ie Armenians, Romanians, Austrians, Shiites, Turks (Who were once a slave in Islamic kingdom), Hindus, Buddhist etc..)

Empire are just empire, they're doing the same thing to those who reject their authority, declare them to be enemy / traitor and slaughtered them all.

Today is a different story, especially after the advent of Jewish and Arab Nationalism...

This was the era in which Islamic doctrines were not adulterated .the remembered madina treaty very well and nothing was important for them .they just followed that treaty .later adulteration started in Islamic traditions and thus their behavior changed
what ever be the age ,even today Muslims stick to their basics when come to war . they always uphold their traditions .even today they are reading this rules and i hope they follow them

Before engaging in battle, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) instructed his soldiers

?Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.? (Sunan Abu Dawud)
?Do not practice treachery or mutilation.(Al-Muwatta)
Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.(Al-Muwatta)
Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food.? (Al-Muwatta)
?If one fights his brother, avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam.? (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)
?Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)
?Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle.? (Sahih Bukhari; Sunan Abu Dawud)
?Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you encounter them, exercise patience.? (Sahih Muslim)
?No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.? (Sunan Abu Dawud).
?Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.? (Al-Tirmidhi)

All these rules were never followed by Christians and in fact they do exactly opposite things .

Zulf

Believe it or not, Muslims (members of the world religion) are also human beings.
Yes, it is true.

Therefore, they act and think no better and no worse than any other group.
It is naive to think Muslims throughout history only acted righteously, because they were/are so rightly guided and on the correct path.
They are mere human beings like everyone else.

What happened in history (actually happened) depended on the individuals in power and their context, mindset, aspirations and motives.

Jafar

You are correct ,jafar
Christians are not following true Abrahamic faith .their doctrines were adulterated by Romans and still they believe in pagan concept of trinity which had its roots from Romans .moreover they are brutally killing people for the past 2000 years
Of course, and also being wiped out...

Nobody followed "True Faith", even Abraham himself... sacrificing his own son?? helloooo??

stupid humans killing each other from the day one of the history
but religion plays a focal part even in wars .for example ,if you have watched that video, they took great pride in killing innocent people .it was the fault of their religion or it is that they were atheist .In both cases ,it was the hatred and suspicion which made them to kill innocent people .what we have witnessed is drop from an ocean.there must have been a ocean of such killings .
Under this circumstances , Islam plays a main role .suppose ,those soldiers were Muslims and they are very well equipped with the verses i had mention in my OP ,the verses forbidding hatred and suspicion .definitely they would not have committed that shameful act and thus innocent people might have been saved .Islam solve each and every problem , jafar .

I don't think Islam solve problems.. honestly.. it just another religion...
It creates more problems, a kind of problems caused by religion (or other ideology which based on "superiority above others&quot

Look underneath the label (Islam, Christian, Atheist, Facist) and you shall see the similarities on why human killing other human.

But the the natural (a.k.a God's) law remain to be enforced (automatically)
Everybody shall get what they deserved..

It is naive to think Muslims throughout history only acted righteously, because they were/are so rightly guided and on the correct path.
They are mere human beings like everyone else.

What happened in history (actually happened) depended on the individuals in power and their context, mindset, aspirations and motives.

Agree..

History (or media) never record on those who are without power or who are living a regular normal life.

As matter of fact, usually history are recorded by the powerful, those who invaded countries and kill thousands or even millions.
And if there are events in history which are shameful for them, they delete the records from history..
This is called 'historical bias'..
The only way to avoid that is by to also checking the 'story' from the opposite side... (their political enemy)..

Simple example
What happened on East Pakistan in 1971?
Check the story from Pakistan side, Bangladesh (a.k.a East Pakistan) side and Indian side..
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

Zulf

Perspectives on historical events are always subjective.
It's due to our emotional ego and drive to preserve and defend our illusionary identity.

All nations have criminals, so why would not bad things happen? We tend to think only good things about our own country, or religion. Unfortunately, Santa Claus doesn't exist... reality is not so sweet, simple and sugary.

Pakistanis think Pakistan and its soldiers never does wrong.
Swedes think Sweden and its soldiers never does wrong.
Americans think they righteously and fairly save the world from the bad guys.
Most people think like this about their own group.
It's naive home team syndrome. We see what we want to see.

The human being doesn't know peace.
First peace within, then without.
Clearly we don't have it within.
Then how will we reach our Rabb?

imrankhawaja

may be about this subject my thinking are weird...

wars have nothing to do with releigions but people make excuse of it...

throughout all the history we see wars are the filtration of corruption when the limits exceeds...

there are alwasy some hands that control everything and like to be rulers of planet and they suck the blood of others slowly slowly the other party have no more blood left for sucking and they rebell against system.. and there you go the wars fights battle started most of the times its due to land and money ... power and ruling... controlling as well...

even today the wars are still going on in the shape of mortgage , credit cards, buying of things what become our neccessity, we convert our luxuries in to necessities which bring us down there,, we are slave of iphone, laptops , makers cloth, makers food, and stuff...

what i see there is a third world war or a global war very near, symptoms of virus in the shape of terrorism is already existed...

parvez_mushtaq

......

Believe it or not, Muslims (members of the world religion) are also human beings.
Yes, it is true.

Therefore, they act and think no better and no worse than any other group.
It is naive to think Muslims throughout history only acted righteously, because they were/are so rightly guided and on the correct path.
They are mere human beings like everyone else.

What happened in history (actually happened) depended on the individuals in power and their context, mindset, aspirations and motives.

Agree..

History (or media) never record on those who are without power or who are living a regular normal life.

As matter of fact, usually history are recorded by the powerful, those who invaded countries and kill thousands or even millions.
And if there are events in history which are shameful for them, they delete the records from history..
This is called 'historical bias'..
The only way to avoid that is by to also checking the 'story' from the opposite side... (their political enemy)..

Simple example
What happened on East Pakistan in 1971?
Check the story from Pakistan side, Bangladesh (a.k.a East Pakistan) side and Indian side..
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

Perspectives on historical events are always subjective.
It's due to our emotional ego and drive to preserve and defend our illusionary identity.

All nations have criminals, so why would not bad things happen? We tend to think only good things about our own country, or religion. Unfortunately, Santa Claus doesn't exist... reality is not so sweet, simple and sugary.

Pakistanis think Pakistan and its soldiers never does wrong.
Swedes think Sweden and its soldiers never does wrong.
Americans think they righteously and fairly save the world from the bad guys.
Most people think like this about their own group.
It's naive home team syndrome. We see what we want to see.

The human being doesn't know peace.
First peace within, then without.
Clearly we don't have it within.
Then how will we reach our Rabb?

I am not debating Muslims are far better but my point is religion can play a better part in reducing the war crimes and of course Islam gives the complete solution
for example let me highlight the Geneva convention protocol 1

Article 42 outlaws attacks on pilots and aircrews who are parachuting from an aircraft in distress. Once they landed in territory controlled by an adverse party, they must be given an opportunity to surrender before being attacked unless it is apparent that they are engaging in a hostile act or attempting to escape. Airborne troops who are parachuting from an aircraft, whether in distress or not, are not given the protection afforded by this Article and, therefore, may be attacked during their descent.
Articles 51 and 54 outlaw indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations, and destruction of food, water, and other materials needed for survival. Indiscriminate attacks include directly attacking civilian (non-military) targets, but also using technology such as biological weapons, nuclear weapons and land mines, whose scope of destruction cannot be limited. A total war that does not distinguish between civilian and military targets is considered a war crime.
Articles 56 and 53 outlaw attacks on dams, dikes, nuclear generating stations, and places of worship. The first three are "works and installations containing dangerous forces" and may be attacked but only in ways that do not threaten to release the dangerous forces (i.e., it is permissible to attempt to capture them but not to try to destroy them).
Articles 76 and 77, 15 and 79 provide special protections for women, children, and civilian medical personnel, and provide measures of protection for journalists.
Article 77 forbids conscription of children under age 15 into the armed forces. It does allow, however, for persons under the age of 15 to participate voluntarily.
Articles 43 and 44 clarify the military status of members of guerrilla forces. Combatant and prisoner of war status is granted to members of dissident forces when under the command of a central authority. Such combatants cannot conceal their allegiance; they must be recognizable as combatants while preparing for or during an attack.
Article 35 bans weapons that "cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering," as well as means of warfare that "cause widespread, long-term, and severe damage to the natural environment."
Article 85 states that it is a war crime to use one of the protective emblems recognized by the Geneva Conventions to deceive the opposing forces (perfidy).
Articles 17 and 81 authorize the ICRC, national societies, or other impartial humanitarian organizations to provide assistance to the victims of war.
Article 90 states that "The High Contracting Parties may at the time of signing, ratifying or acceding to the Protocol, or at any other subsequent time, declare that they recognize ipso facto and without special agreement, in relation to any other High Contracting Party accepting the same obligation, the competence of the Commission to enquire into allegations by such other Party, as authorized by this Article." 74 states have made such a declaration.

now let me compare with the traditional protocol of wars

Before engaging in battle, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) instructed his soldiers

Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person. (Sunan Abu Dawud)
Do not practice treachery or mutilation.(Al-Muwatta)
Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.(Al-Muwatta)
Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food. (Al-Muwatta)
If one fights his brother, avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam. (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)
Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)
Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle. (Sahih Bukhari; Sunan Abu Dawud)
Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you encounter them, exercise patience. (Sahih Muslim)
No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire. (Sunan Abu Dawud).
Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil. (Al-Tirmidhi)

i don't see any difference between these two protocols
but their application differ reciprocally in terms of religious obligation .in the name of sunnah you might have seen lot of people sporting a beard even it does not suit them
in the heat of the situation ,a man carry a gun in front of his enemies will have the ultimate temptation to kill them and under the circumstances he kills and thus our Geneva convention is not helpful and that is what we are witnessing down the ages .
Now ,replace Geneva convention by religious obligations .there are about 100% chances for that man to follow his religious obligations and give a humanitarian treatment to those in front of him .Is not religion is solving the most dangerous problems , jafar

parvez_mushtaq

may be about this subject my thinking are weird...

wars have nothing to do with releigions but people make excuse of it...

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religion got everything to with wars ,imran
in the past people were very bold and they announce wars in the name of religion .now we are hypocrites ,the hidden agenda of every war even know is religion but we hide and sometimes say "war on terror"
Quran has detailed everything .if religions got nothing to do with wars then tell me what the verses on war doing in Quran
example verse 9.05,9.06, 4.94 etc
Qurainst used these verses in a apologetic manner .for example even in my previous thread you might have noted both reel and GL giving apologetic answer with regards to verse 9.05
war is not like salah,sujud ,ahjj etc which can be easily given another meaning by applying logic or what ever way you want
our ancestors have formulated rules using Quran .as a quranist can you formulate these rules with Quran only concept
this is a open question to every quranist here
The real application of Quran is war and as usual it does its job handsomely

imrankhawaja

religion got everything to with wars ,imran
in the past people were very bold and they announce wars in the name of religion .now we are hypocrites ,the hidden agenda of every war even know is religion but we hide and sometimes say "war on terror"
Quran has detailed everything .if religions got nothing to do with wars then tell me what the verses on war doing in Quran
example verse 9.05,9.06, 4.94 etc
Qurainst used these verses in a apologetic manner .for example even in my previous thread you might have noted both reel and GL giving apologetic answer with regards to verse 9.05
war is not like salah,sujud ,ahjj etc which can be easily given another meaning by applying logic or what ever way you want
our ancestors have formulated rules using Quran .as a quranist can you formulate these rules with Quran only concept
this is a open question to every quranist here
The real application of Quran is war and as usual it does its job handsomely

brother first of all, there is no quranist here.. i m not atleast, look at the home page , its GOD alone not quran alone... the one who obey God and listen him and the one who follow the commands of God the same way how all the prophets obey the commmands of God is infaat submtting his will to God alone ,, thats whats there.. personally thw quranist is name given to those who uphold quran in thaat sense all early calips were quranist.. dnt go int these details...

and then come on wars, the purpse of war is not releigion its always money, treasures, controlling... just look in the history of 1000 years old you will see the purpose of wars...

ok do you know the reason behind first world war, ? secondd world war? gulf war? was it due to patrol or money or space race, or tecnology.. think out it ..

the wars in the name of releigion were happened as well... the real purpose is somethhing else.. when prophet fought the wars it was on self defence apart from the last war of conquering makka, becoz it was his homeland .. they started it all , prophet just finished it...

and i did not see prophet as a war lord anywhere in quran.. after prophet the later generations did battles and honestly speaking the history is shameful what they did... go through the authentic sources of traditional muslims you will see the early wars in the era of caliph omar whart khalid bn waleed did due to which they both have swear fight...

thats what you want us to beleive ?

i dnt want to go in history but you better read first fitna second fitna ... who was these people,, both were muslims parties ,, what was the reason of wars? you tell me now i left it for yot to complete...

hanslan

According to the malaikat, it is the humans who causes war and destruction - currently, religion is used for an excuse.

Man_of_Faith

According to the malaikat, it is the humans who causes war and destruction - currently, religion is used for an excuse.

The instinct causes the wars.

parvez_mushtaq

brother first of all, there is no quranist here.. i m not atleast, look at the home page , its GOD alone not quran alone...
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Great !a very good point that i failed to notice .

and then come on wars, the purpse of war is not releigion its always money, treasures, controlling... just look in the history of 1000 years old you will see the purpose of wars...

ok do you know the reason behind first world war, ? secondd world war? gulf war? was it due to patrol or money or space race, or tecnology.. think out it ..

I agree with you to some extent .But you have failed to notice in the present wars . the hidden agenda is religion .
in WW2 ,the target were Jews which was based on religion
Now the target is terrorism but the hidden agenda are Muslims .

the wars in the name of releigion were happened as well... the real purpose is somethhing else.. when prophet fought the wars it was on self defence apart from the last war of conquering makka, becoz it was his homeland .. they started it all , prophet just finished it...

and i did not see prophet as a war lord anywhere in quran.. after prophet the later generations did battles and honestly speaking the history is shameful what they did... go through the authentic sources of traditional muslims you will see the early wars in the era of caliph omar whart khalid bn waleed did due to which they both have swear fight...

thats what you want us to beleive ?

i dnt want to go in history but you better read first fitna second fitna ... who was these people,, both were muslims parties ,, what was the reason of wars? you tell me now i left it for yot to complete...

As i told you before , Quran left nothing and to code the rules of War it was necessary to have a war
the verses about the war makes us to derive the rulings of war .This is the most important part of Quran .if we adopt these rulings the war causalities will be reduced drastically .our ancestors had done this job effectively .as a matter of fact they have done lot of things for us ,imran .i have seen some representative of quran alone here rejecting the doctrine of our ancestors totally .
Since you have mention about Umar rasiallahuanhu ,he did his part .if he had not done his part then Islam might had been long forgotten religion .it was purely a religious wars in the past.these does not apply only to Muslims but to everybody ,Christians as well as Zoroastrians as well .it was like the survival of the fittest .

parvez_mushtaq

The instinct causes the wars.

i cannot get you MOF ,can you elaborate

Jafar

According to the malaikat, it is the humans who causes war and destruction - currently, religion is used for an excuse.

War are waged due to the conflict among human which always revolved around territory / land or power / prestige.

Religion is a tool invented by politician/ruler to control its subject.
Among the purpose of 'controlling' is to also rallying the subjects to sacrifice their lives for the sake of the politician / ruler.

Religion of Islam is no different than religion of Christianity or religion of Judaism or other organized religion. By carefully examined it's history, there's always a ruler / politician who enforced such religion to it's subjects within his realm / territory. The objective is the same; to gain control over their subject.

imrankhawaja

Great !a very good point that i failed to notice . .

in WW2 ,the target were Jews which was based on religion

Now the target is terrorism but the hidden agenda are Muslims .As i told you before , Quran left nothing and to code the rules of War it was necessary to have a war

,imran .i have seen some representative of quran alone here rejecting the doctrine of our ancestors totally .
Since you have mention about Umar rasiallahuanhu ,he did his part .if he had not done his part then Islam might had been long forgotten religion .

RED handshake thats brilliant ... i always appreciate that..

GREEN the target was tecnology and controlling on tecnology the space race was also a part of it,, the roots ended in cold war between two superpowers one must have to give up...

and about jews killing it was just hiitlers personal grudge against them, due to what reason i really dnt know interestingly he was jew himself hmm

BLUE brother you going on wrong path again, proper secterian policy... do you really beleive its due to caliph omar islam is here?

dont you forget caliph omar left prophet in the middle of battle field when prophet was calling on everybody(alquran) but details are in authentic sources of hadith ... but again Allah forgive them all for this mistake...

what did God said at that occassion, that even if prophet died will you turn back on your heels, is God is not enough to protect everything that exist...?

if you wana talk about the history of wars what omar did.. dnt you know how many innocents get killed in these wars.. in one the account 1036 cities he attack and conquer them all... is it what quran is telling to spread islam on sword?

always remember what comes around what goes around...& tit for tat & as you sow so shall you reap... and cause and effect law of God..

how caliph oomar get assasinate , i will just tell you a simple story accoring to the accounts of bukhari and muslim.. somebody hire that assassign abu lulu feroz and he killed him according to plan, and including caliph omar he killed eight more there with in the mosque and in the end he killed himself... offcoarse there was not suicide bombs at that time... ! this is the first suicide attack of history due to the policies of war that omar made...

think about it forget what you study in schooling about caliph omar have a look from this angle these people was in a chance to take revenge from omar becoz due to the wars they lose their kids families... and result comes up like this...

a big result is still going on we have different sectors different teaching from last 1200 years fights of sunni shia , is very pouplar througout the history... even when changees khan attack on bughdad(iraq) sunni shia was having a munazara(debate) and changees khan banged both of them up... voodoo

you are saying islam would have lost ages ago infact yeh due to these early wars we have still viruses everywhere ... isis is the example of this nasty shit virus... who claim themselves a muslim infact they are not...

parvez_mushtaq

RED handshake thats brilliant ... i always appreciate that..

handshake

and about jews killing it was just hiitlers personal grudge against them, due to what reason i really dnt know interestingly he was jew himself hmm

I hope you have read my OP ,Imran
In my Op ,i wa trying to prove that ,It was the common agenda of every Christian in WWII .It was approved by church and Hitler was acting to the tunes of his pope .every christian was happy when Hitler was killing Jews .even he was considered as new messiah sent to Earth to save the world from Jews.