Do you really believe in the literal understanding of hell?
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rotfl
i have no comments actually.... but i have apparent afraid of doing wrong which will lead to unhappy life here or hereafter...lol -
HP Tech, I'm with you. Those who reads the Quran many many times will find MOF findings inconsistent. MOF himself admits that he has not finished reading the Quran. If everything is metaphoric in the Quran then clearly the Quran cannot guide us BUT the Quran is not metaphoric when it comes to issues on personal salvation - it is very clear no matter how bad the translations are. The Quran says for those who belief, metaphoric statements are there in the Quran - only one given knowledge knows what it truly means but those seeking mischief will go and research that stuff until they get lost. But here comes MOF and he says almost everything is metaphoric - he needs to show clearly where it is metaphoric when it is clear. But then again clarity differs from one to another - one who sees the trees may not see the forest.
On one hand, is the appointment, on another is a play of words. If it is an appointment by the Lord - there is certainty no doubt in it - and no one bears witness; if it is just a play of words then one is just fooling himself. So be clear MOF.
What I've note in this forum are those people who do not follow nor have they finished reading the Quran make allegations against the Quran and then demand from those who follow the Quran evidence from the Quran to show that the allegations are false. Clearly these people have malice in their hearts. And there are people who follows the older scriptures and obviously they are in a state of denial and cannot accept that the older books currently they posses are not words from the Lord, just like sectarians who cannot let go of their imams and family practices thus they find ways to either avoid the Quran or make the Quran teachings suit them. And of course they keep on asking whether the older books are relevant - should they follow it - all kinds of questions showing their laziness and skepticism.
All one needs to do is to read the Quran in the manner prescribed by the Quran. If one find guidance, then follow it. If one finds rubbish, then abandon it. Why the need to fight? After all the major questions are Do you believe that you are created? Do you believe there is a creator? Do you believe there is purpose to life? Do you believe there is after life? Do you believe there is punishment and rewards in after life? How to get rewarded? How to avoid punishment?
If you find those BIG questions meaningful then go and find answers/guidance for it. Research all religions if you have the time. Find the one religion that can answer all those BIG questions to your satisfaction and then follow it. After all, all roads lead to one. Just like Abraham, he did his research although a simple one - he just need to ask who was his creator.
Peace.
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Hanslan,
Your reading skill and assumption skill must be very poor then. I NEVER said I have not finished reading Quran. I have said that my reinterpretation project has not finished to decipher Quran as according to what it really says in full. But as far as I have come, this scripture is something utterly different and if we speak about probability it clearly points towards the rest being just the same. And as far as I have come reveals what I am expressing in the forum right here right now. I doubt Quran would contradict itself later on by totally turning around in its teaching.
I do agree with you that what I say is inconsistent with how the Quran is usually understood, but I have also frequently proclaimed that the linguistic understanding of Quran is very poor and those who fabricated this understanding over a millennium ago were only conjecturing on what it says as they were not wholeheartedly interested in what it said either but to "confirm" their own flimsy (paganistic) doctrine which the 'real' Quran rebukes but calls them deluded and tells the reader to try to help.
So what I am talking about, a recurring life in this world, is founded on what Quran says and not per my own thinking. I let the language of Quran to speak on its own using logic and rationality.
And if we go back to your reading and assumption skill I ask in what sense I have said things are metaphorical? One can use a metaphor in explaining things and this is the only metaphor I am referring to. I tend to favor the word parable or analogy though and it is manifest in my linguistic use.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace all,
Peace
Many years ago where I was working, there was a women who was a Jehovah's witness and I think I mentioned hell and she told me that she believes that you cease to exist. She told me that that's how she interprets the Bible. This was the first time I have heard of it and I thought it makes sense.
Heard of it as well. Others argue Hell is simply the absence of God. I don't think Hell is eternal. That's not merciful. People may either stop "existing" or go somewhere else perhaps.
I am not trying to convert anyone to any tradition. I myself don't know for sure is there, or isn't there hell. I have come across so called scribal errors in the Bible. Those errors are admited by some Christians as just that, scribal errors. But they still Believe in the Bible, and I am personally don't mind if they do.
Me either. )
Now, the Quran is pretty clear on that matter if you ask me.
Qur'an is clear in the sense that it establishes Hell as a place of terrible punishment that no one wants to be in. But I can't remember mental states ever being mentioned, if people are ever reformed or something like that. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) I know there are Sufi understandings of one verse that claims to speak about Hell as feminine or as a mother, and people interpret it that way, but I don't believe anyone here has accepted that the Arabic text truly reflects that understanding.
However, is it literal? Or is it possible to take it as a metaphor?
Thanks
The example of Paradise is mentioned 1335. Why wouldn't Hell be the same in this scenario?
On another note, does anyone know the root of Jahannam?
Two webpages here and here say the root is jeem haa meem. But Qur'an Corpus doesn't list it.
Maybe we can start by looking at the root. )
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Hanslan,
Your reading skill and assumption skill must be very poor then. I NEVER said I have not finished reading Quran. I have said that my reinterpretation project has not finished to decipher Quran as according to what it really says in full. But as far as I have come, this scripture is something utterly different and if we speak about probability it clearly points towards the rest being just the same. And as far as I have come reveals what I am expressing in the forum right here right now. I doubt Quran would contradict itself later on by totally turning around in its teaching.
I do agree with you that what I say is inconsistent with how the Quran is usually understood, but I have also frequently proclaimed that the linguistic understanding of Quran is very poor and those who fabricated this understanding over a millennium ago were only conjecturing on what it says as they were not wholeheartedly interested in what it said either but to "confirm" their own flimsy (paganistic) doctrine which the 'real' Quran rebukes but calls them deluded and tells the reader to try to help.
So what I am talking about, a recurring life in this world, is founded on what Quran says and not per my own thinking. I let the language of Quran to speak on its own using logic and rationality.
And if we go back to your reading and assumption skill I ask in what sense I have said things are metaphorical? One can use a metaphor in explaining things and this is the only metaphor I am referring to. I tend to favor the word parable or analogy though and it is manifest in my linguistic use.
Be well
AmenuelYes I admit, English is not my native language. I find your research interesting, some are consistent with the Quran and some are not. But when it comes to major principals like reincarnation and earth is hell more explanation is required especially how it relates to the Quran. The more you go on and on in the forum you make everything sounds metaphorical as if the major teachings of the Quran to save oneself are lost.
Can you truly say, if someone were to follow the Quran today (only the Quran, nothing else) based on current English translation one will be condemned to hell? If you are certain that they are condemned which verse exactly are you referring to?
Even based on current translations (NO MATTER HOW BAD IT IS), the Quran advocates good work on earth, do not cause corruption on earth, abstain from doing bad, do not be oppressive to yourself or others, uphold your good commitments ? weed out the bad commitments and when it comes to religion do not associate anything with the Lord, pray when it is time to pray, pray as you will, ask from the Lord for anything, rely on the Lord, believe in the unseen (the Lord, Malaikat, Prophet/ Messenger/ judgment day) and always remember the Lord in whatever you do.
Surely you cannot say by doing those things above one is condemned to hell? The above teachings from the Quran are not metaphorical, they are clear; there is no need to second guess their meanings. You can find those messages / teachings repeated in the Quran. And those teachings are also shared across other religions? principal teachings.Let us contemplate on reincarnation. If everybody believes in it, will it make us more hard working or lazier? Of course lazier, bcoz everyone has another chance ? unlimited chances because it will take aeons for the big end to come.
You say hell is on earth ? some obviously are not in hell ? some are rich and get whatever they want, they even have servants bringing them every little thing and compare this to one who is born in poverty where is the fairness? Which one is in hell? And we know those who are rich will try to ensure their progeny stays rich thus born rich saves them from hell.
Maybe you believe that our ancestors performed a BIG mistake by following satan and thus together they were cast out to earth ? so from heaven to earth = hell.
If our ancestors did not make their mistake they would have automatically become angels because the Lord made reference to humans being appointed as the Lord?s representative.
In short, if not for the sin of the father, the human race will not be here on earth. We would be in heaven ruling earth. And to be fair to humans, the reincarnation part is created to ensure all humans gets to heaven to wash the sin of the father. Is this your teory? Maybe its more interesting than my simple analysis.
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Peace,
I just want to reiterate that I don't know for sure that there is, or that there isn't hell. I am just exploring others opinions on the subject. Maybe there is hell like its described in the Quran. Or maybe the Jehovah's witnesses or some Sufis have got bit right and you cease to exist, or hell is this earth, for some, since not everybody is not loving life. I have been through a bit, but I still love life and am grateful to God for that gift and I want to ask true God to guide us all towards the truth, whatever it might be.
Thanks
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Peace,
I just want to reiterate that I don't know for sure that there is, or that there isn't hell. I am just exploring others opinions on the subject. Maybe there is hell like its described in the Quran. Or maybe the Jehovah's witnesses or some Sufis have got bit right and you cease to exist, or hell is this earth, for some, since not everybody is not loving life. I have been through a bit, but I still love life and am grateful to God for that gift and I want to ask true God to guide us all towards the truth, whatever it might be.
Thanks
If you want God to guide you to the truth why do you rely on other's opinions? Why don't you pick up the Book and study?
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Peace all,
Heard of it as well. Others argue Hell is simply the absence of God. I don't think Hell is eternal. That's not merciful. People may either stop "existing" or go somewhere else perhaps.
Thank God that the truth is not dependent on what you think
Show me evidence for your assumption. 5328
Did you even read my post?
How do you read Quran? 4377 7840
Disappointing to see you make baseless assumptions
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MOF is a fraud!
Notice how he bares accusation on the Quran repeatedly claiming the understanding is filled with follies yet he never provides his alternative understanding.
Ask him to provide evidence for his position and alternative interpretation based on his research, he will never succeed in providing sound intelligible proof.
That is because he does not have an alternative understanding he just wants you to believe the Quran is corrupt and that he alone has the key to decipher it.
Glory be to Allah High above is He with what you associate with Him!
Indeed I disassociate myself from the disbelievers and what they worship besides The Most Gracious!
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MOF if you can't provide adequate proof you are Man of Fraud. You are in league with iblees and satan who swore to revenge and put humans to hell.
Your reference to ayat 234 in relation to ab as something to do with father is telling upon you that you are referring to iblees and satan as your father.
Are you Damien in the Omen???
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Peace HP_TECH,
Thank God that the truth is not dependent on what you think
Show me evidence for your assumption. 5328
Logically an endless burning eternal Hell is not anywhere close to merciful, and that is one of God's attributes. There is also nothing just about infinite punishment for a finite life. That is also one of God's attributes.
Also, I think this article raises some good points http//www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2014/04/29/get-the-eternal-hell-out-of-islam/31857
For my other points, it was just speculation and repeating other opinions I've heard in the past, if Ervin hadn't heard of that information before or was interested in hearing it.
Did you even read my post?
No, because my post wasn't directed towards you. I was addressing Ervin. I didn't read any other responses before posting.
How do you read Quran? 4377
First, thank you for supplying verses for me to look into. I appreciate it.
On 4377
4374 Surely, the criminals will abide in the retribution of Hell.
4375 It will not be removed from them; they will be confined therein.
4376 And We did not wrong them, but it was they who were the wrongdoers.
4377 And they called out "O Malek, please let your Lord terminate us!" He will say "No, you are remaining."
4378 We have come to you with the truth, but most of you hate the truth.
4379 Or have they devised some scheme? We will also devise.
4380 Or do they think that We do not hear their secrets and their private counsel? Yes indeed; and Our messengers are with them, recording.From the above
(a) Those who must remain in Hell (after choosing to call out for termination) are criminals. (The "disbelievers" are also criminals (7715-18, 7745-46), but in this verse "criminals" are specifically being addressed.)
(b) Malek simply says they must remain. Malek doesn't say that they will remain there forever, but they have to stay there (still). Malek is also not God. That is not Him speaking.
(c) They (the criminals) wronged themselves (meaning they deserve to remain in Hell because of their actions)
(d) They've devised a scheme? (also found in 6123 - and the scheme they devise is truly against their own souls/selves) They hold secrets and private counsel (that they presumably keep from the believers, and in other examples of people holding secrets, they were plotting to kill or drive out the messenger)
(e) Going back to Point A, they are criminals. Criminals are mentioned and described many times in the Qur'an. People are criminals and sent to Hell because they don't carry out the law, they don't feed the poor, etc. (7440-47). The criminals mislead people (2699). They worship other things/gods, and ultimately have no true support or loyalty to one another (3722-3736). They deny Hell (5543). They mock the messenger (1511-12). The criminals laugh at the believers (8329). They deny revelation and invent lies about God (1017, 3222). They hate the truth (1082, 437, despite receiving clear proofs (1013, 3047). They will want to use their own children to save themselves against punishment (7011). They are wicked, don't have wisdom, and corrupt the earth (11116). They're fearful of the Record because they know that they have done wrong (1849). They are arrogant (740, 7133, 1075, 4531).On arrogance specifically
Defining Arrogance
(a) having or showing the insulting attitude of people who believe that they are better, smarter, or more important than other people (source)
From what I understand of the above
(a) God does not like or love the arrogant; those who show off
(b) Arrogance deceives one from God; they have their hearts sealed
(c) Arrogant people don?t perceive their own arrogance
(d) Arrogance is what caused Satan to be banished and despised by God
(e) Arrogant people reject the revelations (they think they are above them as per 2714)
(f) Arrogant people will not go to Heaven until the impossible is achieved (a camel passing through the eye of a needle in 740)
(g) Arrogant people are disrespectful, scheming, evil criminals
(h) Arrogant people have wasted the good things that were given to them in this life
(i) Those who have wronged themselves have promised each other no more than arrogance/delusion; their schemes will backfire on each other
(j) Arrogant people have reacted with denial or violence (murder) when they receive news (revelation) that they do not like
(k) Other arrogant people have threatened the believers to re-accept their creed, else they (the believers) will be driven out
(l) Leaders and tyrants may be more prone to arrogance than other types of people
(m) The arrogant have followers, and they and their followers will be all arguing in Hell
(n) The arrogant invent lies about God?s system (particularly lies that will benefit themselves only? - thinking that the Fire will only touch them temporarily in 324)
(o) The arrogant dispute about God?s revelations without any authority
(p) Arrogant people do not believe in the Hereafter
(q) Arrogant people do not believe that they will be returned to God
(r) Arrogant people think they can do anything (ranging from penetrating the earth to reaching the mountains in height, in 1737, and having the most strength in 4115)
(s) Arrogant people do not seek God?s forgiveness7840
7840 I have warned you of a retribution which is close, the Day when the human being will look at what he has brought forth and the rejecter will say "I wish I were dust!"
I don't know what your point is in reminding me of this verse. A "rejecter" will certainly look at what he has done in his life and wish to cease existing if he has made very poor decisions in his life. It doesn't necessarily mean that he will or won't stop existing one day. What is quoted in the verse is not God's words, but the man's.
I'm not denying some sort of punishment. But if we are all only recompensed for what we have done wrong in this world, then we should only be punished in the way that suits the exact crimes/wrongdoings that we have engaged in. The punishment has to fit the crime. That is my point.
Disappointing to see you make baseless assumptions
) Peace.
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7840 I have warned you of a retribution which is close, the Day when the human being will look at what he has brought forth and the rejecter will say "I wish I were dust!"
I think what is meant here is the rejector then knows / realises that hell will be forever thus the rejector wishes to be dust instead of being in hell forever.
Logically an endless burning eternal Hell is not anywhere close to merciful, and that is one of God's attributes. There is also nothing just about infinite punishment for a finite life. That is also one of God's attributes.
With respect to you, The Creator's attributes cannot be fully understood by us, thus our measure on fairness is limited to what we know which is very limited. The Creator can create and can destroy at will. Who are we with limited knowledge to judge what is fair?
Have we or can we ever compensate or thank the Creator adequately for the chance of 'life' and at the same time the chance of being created as an important creation ie humans? One may be arrogant to say I did not wish to be made, but that is just being arrogant like satan and iblees. Maybe looking from that perspective forever make sense. When the rejector goes to hell, the attributes of Rahman and Rahim are removed from the rejector, thus the rejector remains in hell forever - in hell is not 'living' only suffering.
Peace.
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Peace hanslan,
I think what is meant here is the rejector then knows / realises that hell will be forever thus the rejector wishes to be dust instead of being in hell forever.
That's also an assumption though, although still a possibility, that the "rejecter" is specifically fearing the punishment of eternal Hell instead of just the punishment itself. One doesn't have to recognize something is permanent before wishing for a different fate.
With respect to you, The Creator's attributes cannot be fully understood by us, thus our measure on fairness is limited to what we know which is very limited. The Creator can create and can destroy at will. Who are we with limited knowledge to judge what is fair?
4153 "We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?"
If we're supposed to recognize the truth in our own hearts and brains, then the truth should resonate with us.
Time is a worldly concept though, but that is something difficult for us to grasp.
We are not the judge, God is. And He will do as He wills. Only He truly sees inside a person, and knows them and knows their intentions and development. It is simply my belief that I don't think anyone on Earth deserves eternal Hell. I don't think the Qur'an reflects an understanding of eternal Hell either.* So we shouldn't impose that understanding onto the text. Rather we should simply uphold the Qur'anic concept that we will all get what we deserve and none of us will be wronged in the slightest (2147). I'm sure on that we can agree on?
*If anyone has Qur'anic evidence to the contrary, please post it.
God's Mercy is greatest and can extend the farthest
6128 "And the Day We gather them all 'O assembly of Jinn, you have managed to take many from mankind.' Their supporters from mankind said 'Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us.' He said 'The Fire is your dwelling, abiding therein, except as your Lord wishes.' Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable."
(Also see 11106-108 for the same message as above.)
7156 "'And decree for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter; we have been guided towards You.' He said 'My punishment, I afflict with it whom I chose, and My mercy encompasses all things. I will thus decree it for those who are aware and contribute towards purification, and those who believe in Our revelations.'"
Have we or can we ever compensate or thank the Creator adequately for the chance of 'life' and at the same time the chance of being created as an important creation ie humans? One may be arrogant to say I did not wish to be made, but that is just being arrogant like satan and iblees. Maybe looking from that perspective forever make sense. When the rejector goes to hell, the attributes of Rahman and Rahim are removed from the rejector, thus the rejector remains in hell forever - in hell is not 'living' only suffering.
Peace.
How is it arrogant to say one wishes they weren't made?
In Hell no one can live OR die (2074, 8712-13).
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Peace Comrox,
I don't think the Qur'an reflects an understanding of eternal Hell either.* So we shouldn't impose that understanding onto the text. Rather we should simply uphold the Qur'anic concept that we will all get what we deserve and none of us will be wronged in the slightest (2147). I'm sure on that we can agree on?
*If anyone has Qur'anic evidence to the contrary, please post it. )
4168 Those who have rejected and did wrong, God was not to forgive them, nor guide them to a path.
4169 Except to the path of Hell, they will abide therein eternally. For God this is very easy.7223 "To simply proclaim from God, and His messages." And whoever disobeys God and His messenger, then he will have the fire of Hell to dwell eternally therein.
4128 Such is the recompense for the enemies of God. The Fire shall be their eternal abode, as a recompense for their discarding Our revelations.
In case someone doubts that hell has fire, 7223 clarifies it by mentioning both.
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In these verses there is no exception stated as in 11106-107 and 6128 (which by itself causes an apparent contradiction with verses stated above).
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11106 and 6128 do not say "eternal" like above verses say, so those verses cannot be used as a defense against eternal hell or fire anyway - no exception to ETERNAL hell or fire in the quran).
572 Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is the Messiah, son of Mary." And the Messiah said "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets up partners with God, then God will restrict Paradise from him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."
448 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives other than that for whom He pleases. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed invented a great sin.
4116 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives other than that for whom He pleases. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed strayed a far straying.If you combine 572 with 448, 4116 then it is crystal clear that fire will be eternal for those who set up partners with God because God will never forgive them. Another evidence of eternal fire.
This will also contradict with 2147; what irreversible/irreparable harm is done to the infinite Creator by setting up partners, that justifies punishment in an eternal fire with no chance of forgiveness? There is no partner with the infinite Creator in reality, thus setting up partners with the infinite Creator by a 3rd density being in this temporary illusion of physical existence is nothing but a fantasy. How can a fantasy irreversibly/irreparably harm the infinite Creator?
In my understanding
Rapid return to the infinite Creator = "heaven".
Delay in return to the infinite Creator = "hell".Peace
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MOF if you can't provide adequate proof you are Man of Fraud. You are in league with iblees and satan who swore to revenge and put humans to hell.
Your reference to ayat 234 in relation to ab as something to do with father is telling upon you that you are referring to iblees and satan as your father.
Are you Damien in the Omen???
Not necessarily, it can also be me inadequate in conveying knowledge on a difficult subject. I told you that the current Quran with its accompanying interpretation is a fraud and obviously anyone could reach the same conclusion if they were just sincerely looking instead of taking things for granted.
I cannot be similar with a person who did not exist except in deluded clerics' minds. The word Satan refers to the instinct and you could reflect yourself on how instinctive you are right now in your way of articulating yourself. That is following Satan and if I do not remember incorrectly I wrote that to you before. The most tragic of being in the perception of Allah is the one who gives expression of Satan.
Ebliss means broken or shattered and it refers to your present relationship to your creator ("father", but the verse is utterly misconceived by people who had no apparent intention to find out what it says. The verse actually refers to you as potential maleikah and that you have to be subjected to a test by being shattered from your creator and grow under delusion. That is what the verse truthfully refers to.
If this is adequate proof or not is up to you or anyone else, but I urge you to be sound in reasoning, and I will not change my research project and decipher something other than what Quran says for your sake. Before you give emotional outbursts you might reflect on who you make out of yourself.
Be well
Amenuel -
MOF is a fraud!
Notice how he bares accusation on the Quran repeatedly claiming the understanding is filled with follies yet he never provides his alternative understanding.
Ask him to provide evidence for his position and alternative interpretation based on his research, he will never succeed in providing sound intelligible proof.
That is because he does not have an alternative understanding he just wants you to believe the Quran is corrupt and that he alone has the key to decipher it.
Glory be to Allah High above is He with what you associate with Him!
Indeed I disassociate myself from the disbelievers and what they worship besides The Most Gracious!
I frequently provide quite substantiated inconsistencies and logical errors in the traditional interpretation. And I do actually go into the intricacies on a multitude number of passages in random analyses which you can find if you search the forum and I do refer to established Classical Arabic lexicons. What more do you ask for?
Is all you can do to burst out saying people are disbelievers from right to left? What is a disbeliever anyway and do you claim to have the proficiency to judge who is?
Please examine verses down to the Arabic and then explain them in a sound way instead of parroting meaningless verses out of interpretations that are seriously flawed. If you can do that in a successful manner you may join the discussion again countering my analyses. I or anyone intelligent do not accept verses interpreted to clearly present Rabb as a degenerate being full of hatred. If you can prove me wrong I will gladly disbelieve in Quran because my Rabb is advanced, not primitive.
Be well
Amenuel -
and I will not change my research project and decipher something other than what Quran says for your sake.
Be well
AmenuelAs I've said your research is interesting, and have never asked you to change it for my sake. I've asked for clarity rather than here and there quips/responses in the forum which will only show inconsistencies or accusations of fraud. Maybe you should go straight to the point of those verses rather than rant about past clerics/bad translations, I mean just post your findings minus the demeaning comments on others. Whether people believe you or not is another issue which should not be your concern. What is obvious in the Quran, whether badly translated or not can be seen by everyone who actually reads the Quran BUT you are presenting things very differently where it is not obvious thus requiring more clarity from you. If you do not want to share, then do not comment because it only shows your pride. And as a follower of the Quran, I know you have the commitment of sharing it with others; but if the knowledge is just for you then why share it at all?
Peace.
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...................
Also, why isn't there teaching of hell in the Old Testament?
Now, the Quran is pretty clear on that matter if you ask me. However, is it literal?
Or is it possible to take it as a metaphor?Thanks
Salaam/Peace be upon you, Ervin,
I believe, there is absolutely "teaching of Hell" in the Old Testament --(somewhat implicitly),
and in the New Testament --(clear explicitly), thus====================
11- Behold, all you who kindle a fire,
who equip yourselves with burning torches!
Walk by the light of your fire,
and by the torches that you have kindled!
(The LORD said) This you will have --(as a Most Equitable, Fair and Just Requital
for their own brutality/savagery above)-- from MY HandYou shall lie down (in Hell) in torment.
ISAIAH 50/11
13- This is the path of those who have foolish confidence;
yet after them people approve of their boasts.14- Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol (=Grave or/and Hell);
death shall be their shepherd,
and the upright shall rule over them in the morning.
Their form shall be for consumption; Sheol (=Grave or/and Hell) will be a dwelling for him.15- But GOD will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol (=Grave or/and Hell);
for HE will receive me.PSALMS-ZABOOR 49/13-15
20- But the wicked are like the tossing sea;
for it cannot be quiet,
and its waters toss up mire and dirt.21- There shall be no "peace,? says my GOD, ?for the wicked? (in Hell).
ISAIAH 57/20-21
*In an exact similar/same manner,
for example
"Jannah" is used in QURAN TESTAMENT to refer to a worldly "Garden," or/and also otherworldly "Paradise."
so also "Jahannam" may coherently be understood as such therein again
to refer to a worldly "Grave," or/and also otherworldly "Hell."====================
28- And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather fear HIM Who can torment both soul and body in Hell.GOSPEL, Matthew 10/28
22- The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham?s side. The rich man also died and was buried,
23- and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24- And he called out, ?O father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
for I am in anguish in this flame.?25- But Abraham said, ?Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things;
but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.26- And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed,
in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.?GOSPEL, Luke 16/22-26
This same great chasm between the dwellers of Hell and dwellers of Paradise
is also clearly emphasized in QURAN TESTAMENT here (=7/46-51 & 57/13-14)And I strongly believe that
Paradise and Hell are not Metaphors, at all,
but they are (at least) as "Real" as this World, and very "Similar" with regard to all provisions
therein====================
25- And give good news to those who believe and do good works
that they will have estates with Rivers flowing beneath them.
Every time they receive a provision of its fruit, they say
"This is what we have been provisioned before" (in the Worldly Life) for they are given it, similarly.
And there they will have pure companions, and in it they will abide.(QURAN TESTAMENT 2/25)
X X X
5- They (=the Wicked who willfully commit such savageries/atrocities/brutalities here =85/4-10) will enter
a blazing Hell-Fire (=i.e. they will be living in a very hot Planet).6- And be given to drink from a boiling spring (therein).
7- They will have no food except from a thorny plant.
8- It does not nourish nor avail against hunger (therein).
--(as a Most Equitable, Just and Fair Requital for what they have willfully committed
with their own hands here, and (if) never truly repented thereafter here 85/4-10 = 40/17, 40)
107- Abiding therein (=Hell-Fire) as long as the heavens and the earth exist, except for what your LORD wills
(=i.e. perhaps, our LORD may accept the Repentance of anyone who truly repents and return to HIM in Hell-Fire
and immediately admit them into HIS Paradise therein, when/if HE wills so.)
or/and
(=i.e. perhaps, our LORD may decide to end the existence of anyone who suffered enough therein
but still has no intention to truly repent and return to HIM even in Hell-Fire therein,
but also has no intention to willfully commit such savageries/atrocities/brutalities anymore (=85/4-10) either,
and thus may totally end their existence --according to their wish-- therein, when/if HE wills so.)Certainly, your LORD is --(Most Gracious, Most Merciful =1/1
Most Equitable, Just and Fair)-- Doer of whatever HE wills. (=40/17, 40)(QURAN TESTAMENT 88/5-8 = 11/107)
Remain in peace/salaam.
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Peace all,
.............
I know there are Sufi understandings of one verse that claims to speak about Hell as feminine or as a mother, and people interpret it that way,
but I don't believe anyone here has accepted that the Arabic text truly reflects that understanding..............
Salaam/Peace Comrox,
It is very interesting indeed, dear Sister/Friend.
I can truly and wholeheartedly accept it based on this Most Essential Perspective,
here====================
In the Name of AL-LAH, the Most-Gracious, the Most-Merciful.
...........
6- (On that Day), As for him/her whose weights are heavy.
7- Then he/she will be in a happy life.
8- As for him/her whose weights are light.
9- Then his/her Mother (=faUmmuhu) will be Abyss.
10- And what make you conceive what that (Abyss) is?
11- A blazing Fire (=i.e. like a gracious and merciful Mother
may chastise her child harshly (by fire emotional burning) to make him/her return from destructive/evil ways and habits here,our Most-Gracious and Most-Merciful Lord AL-LAH above
may Chastise HIS Servants harshly (through that gracious and merciful Mother = Abyss,
and by that Fire therein emotional Burning) to make them return from destructive/evil ways and habits, in the Hereafter.)(QURAN TESTAMENT 101/6-11)
In this respect, we should also absolutely see again, first of all,
=QURAN TESTAMENT 88/5-8 = 11/107
at the very end of the previous post.
Remain in peace/salaam.
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Quote from hanslan on August 17, 2016, 072101 AM
I think what is meant here is the rejector then knows / realises that hell will be forever thus the rejector wishes to be dust instead of being in hell forever.
That's also an assumption though, although still a possibility, that the "rejecter" is specifically fearing the punishment of eternal Hell instead of just the punishment itself. One doesn't have to recognize something is permanent before wishing for a different fate.
Hell is like permanent for a person who does not decide to develop.
Quote from hanslan on August 17, 2016, 072101 AM
With respect to you, The Creator's attributes cannot be fully understood by us, thus our measure on fairness is limited to what we know which is very limited. The Creator can create and can destroy at will. Who are we with limited knowledge to judge what is fair?
Who has told you this? And logic can work out what is fair. Logic is a powerful tool. Illogical judgment is not fair.
Be well
Amenuel