Do you really believe in the literal understanding of hell?
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7840 I have warned you of a retribution which is close, the Day when the human being will look at what he has brought forth and the rejecter will say "I wish I were dust!"
I think what is meant here is the rejector then knows / realises that hell will be forever thus the rejector wishes to be dust instead of being in hell forever.
Logically an endless burning eternal Hell is not anywhere close to merciful, and that is one of God's attributes. There is also nothing just about infinite punishment for a finite life. That is also one of God's attributes.
With respect to you, The Creator's attributes cannot be fully understood by us, thus our measure on fairness is limited to what we know which is very limited. The Creator can create and can destroy at will. Who are we with limited knowledge to judge what is fair?
Have we or can we ever compensate or thank the Creator adequately for the chance of 'life' and at the same time the chance of being created as an important creation ie humans? One may be arrogant to say I did not wish to be made, but that is just being arrogant like satan and iblees. Maybe looking from that perspective forever make sense. When the rejector goes to hell, the attributes of Rahman and Rahim are removed from the rejector, thus the rejector remains in hell forever - in hell is not 'living' only suffering.
Peace.
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Peace hanslan,
I think what is meant here is the rejector then knows / realises that hell will be forever thus the rejector wishes to be dust instead of being in hell forever.
That's also an assumption though, although still a possibility, that the "rejecter" is specifically fearing the punishment of eternal Hell instead of just the punishment itself. One doesn't have to recognize something is permanent before wishing for a different fate.
With respect to you, The Creator's attributes cannot be fully understood by us, thus our measure on fairness is limited to what we know which is very limited. The Creator can create and can destroy at will. Who are we with limited knowledge to judge what is fair?
4153 "We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?"
If we're supposed to recognize the truth in our own hearts and brains, then the truth should resonate with us.
Time is a worldly concept though, but that is something difficult for us to grasp.
We are not the judge, God is. And He will do as He wills. Only He truly sees inside a person, and knows them and knows their intentions and development. It is simply my belief that I don't think anyone on Earth deserves eternal Hell. I don't think the Qur'an reflects an understanding of eternal Hell either.* So we shouldn't impose that understanding onto the text. Rather we should simply uphold the Qur'anic concept that we will all get what we deserve and none of us will be wronged in the slightest (2147). I'm sure on that we can agree on?
*If anyone has Qur'anic evidence to the contrary, please post it.
God's Mercy is greatest and can extend the farthest
6128 "And the Day We gather them all 'O assembly of Jinn, you have managed to take many from mankind.' Their supporters from mankind said 'Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us.' He said 'The Fire is your dwelling, abiding therein, except as your Lord wishes.' Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable."
(Also see 11106-108 for the same message as above.)
7156 "'And decree for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter; we have been guided towards You.' He said 'My punishment, I afflict with it whom I chose, and My mercy encompasses all things. I will thus decree it for those who are aware and contribute towards purification, and those who believe in Our revelations.'"
Have we or can we ever compensate or thank the Creator adequately for the chance of 'life' and at the same time the chance of being created as an important creation ie humans? One may be arrogant to say I did not wish to be made, but that is just being arrogant like satan and iblees. Maybe looking from that perspective forever make sense. When the rejector goes to hell, the attributes of Rahman and Rahim are removed from the rejector, thus the rejector remains in hell forever - in hell is not 'living' only suffering.
Peace.
How is it arrogant to say one wishes they weren't made?
In Hell no one can live OR die (2074, 8712-13).
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Peace Comrox,
I don't think the Qur'an reflects an understanding of eternal Hell either.* So we shouldn't impose that understanding onto the text. Rather we should simply uphold the Qur'anic concept that we will all get what we deserve and none of us will be wronged in the slightest (2147). I'm sure on that we can agree on?
*If anyone has Qur'anic evidence to the contrary, please post it. )
4168 Those who have rejected and did wrong, God was not to forgive them, nor guide them to a path.
4169 Except to the path of Hell, they will abide therein eternally. For God this is very easy.7223 "To simply proclaim from God, and His messages." And whoever disobeys God and His messenger, then he will have the fire of Hell to dwell eternally therein.
4128 Such is the recompense for the enemies of God. The Fire shall be their eternal abode, as a recompense for their discarding Our revelations.
In case someone doubts that hell has fire, 7223 clarifies it by mentioning both.
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In these verses there is no exception stated as in 11106-107 and 6128 (which by itself causes an apparent contradiction with verses stated above).
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11106 and 6128 do not say "eternal" like above verses say, so those verses cannot be used as a defense against eternal hell or fire anyway - no exception to ETERNAL hell or fire in the quran).
572 Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is the Messiah, son of Mary." And the Messiah said "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets up partners with God, then God will restrict Paradise from him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."
448 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives other than that for whom He pleases. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed invented a great sin.
4116 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives other than that for whom He pleases. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed strayed a far straying.If you combine 572 with 448, 4116 then it is crystal clear that fire will be eternal for those who set up partners with God because God will never forgive them. Another evidence of eternal fire.
This will also contradict with 2147; what irreversible/irreparable harm is done to the infinite Creator by setting up partners, that justifies punishment in an eternal fire with no chance of forgiveness? There is no partner with the infinite Creator in reality, thus setting up partners with the infinite Creator by a 3rd density being in this temporary illusion of physical existence is nothing but a fantasy. How can a fantasy irreversibly/irreparably harm the infinite Creator?
In my understanding
Rapid return to the infinite Creator = "heaven".
Delay in return to the infinite Creator = "hell".Peace
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MOF if you can't provide adequate proof you are Man of Fraud. You are in league with iblees and satan who swore to revenge and put humans to hell.
Your reference to ayat 234 in relation to ab as something to do with father is telling upon you that you are referring to iblees and satan as your father.
Are you Damien in the Omen???
Not necessarily, it can also be me inadequate in conveying knowledge on a difficult subject. I told you that the current Quran with its accompanying interpretation is a fraud and obviously anyone could reach the same conclusion if they were just sincerely looking instead of taking things for granted.
I cannot be similar with a person who did not exist except in deluded clerics' minds. The word Satan refers to the instinct and you could reflect yourself on how instinctive you are right now in your way of articulating yourself. That is following Satan and if I do not remember incorrectly I wrote that to you before. The most tragic of being in the perception of Allah is the one who gives expression of Satan.
Ebliss means broken or shattered and it refers to your present relationship to your creator ("father", but the verse is utterly misconceived by people who had no apparent intention to find out what it says. The verse actually refers to you as potential maleikah and that you have to be subjected to a test by being shattered from your creator and grow under delusion. That is what the verse truthfully refers to.
If this is adequate proof or not is up to you or anyone else, but I urge you to be sound in reasoning, and I will not change my research project and decipher something other than what Quran says for your sake. Before you give emotional outbursts you might reflect on who you make out of yourself.
Be well
Amenuel -
MOF is a fraud!
Notice how he bares accusation on the Quran repeatedly claiming the understanding is filled with follies yet he never provides his alternative understanding.
Ask him to provide evidence for his position and alternative interpretation based on his research, he will never succeed in providing sound intelligible proof.
That is because he does not have an alternative understanding he just wants you to believe the Quran is corrupt and that he alone has the key to decipher it.
Glory be to Allah High above is He with what you associate with Him!
Indeed I disassociate myself from the disbelievers and what they worship besides The Most Gracious!
I frequently provide quite substantiated inconsistencies and logical errors in the traditional interpretation. And I do actually go into the intricacies on a multitude number of passages in random analyses which you can find if you search the forum and I do refer to established Classical Arabic lexicons. What more do you ask for?
Is all you can do to burst out saying people are disbelievers from right to left? What is a disbeliever anyway and do you claim to have the proficiency to judge who is?
Please examine verses down to the Arabic and then explain them in a sound way instead of parroting meaningless verses out of interpretations that are seriously flawed. If you can do that in a successful manner you may join the discussion again countering my analyses. I or anyone intelligent do not accept verses interpreted to clearly present Rabb as a degenerate being full of hatred. If you can prove me wrong I will gladly disbelieve in Quran because my Rabb is advanced, not primitive.
Be well
Amenuel -
and I will not change my research project and decipher something other than what Quran says for your sake.
Be well
AmenuelAs I've said your research is interesting, and have never asked you to change it for my sake. I've asked for clarity rather than here and there quips/responses in the forum which will only show inconsistencies or accusations of fraud. Maybe you should go straight to the point of those verses rather than rant about past clerics/bad translations, I mean just post your findings minus the demeaning comments on others. Whether people believe you or not is another issue which should not be your concern. What is obvious in the Quran, whether badly translated or not can be seen by everyone who actually reads the Quran BUT you are presenting things very differently where it is not obvious thus requiring more clarity from you. If you do not want to share, then do not comment because it only shows your pride. And as a follower of the Quran, I know you have the commitment of sharing it with others; but if the knowledge is just for you then why share it at all?
Peace.
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...................
Also, why isn't there teaching of hell in the Old Testament?
Now, the Quran is pretty clear on that matter if you ask me. However, is it literal?
Or is it possible to take it as a metaphor?Thanks
Salaam/Peace be upon you, Ervin,
I believe, there is absolutely "teaching of Hell" in the Old Testament --(somewhat implicitly),
and in the New Testament --(clear explicitly), thus====================
11- Behold, all you who kindle a fire,
who equip yourselves with burning torches!
Walk by the light of your fire,
and by the torches that you have kindled!
(The LORD said) This you will have --(as a Most Equitable, Fair and Just Requital
for their own brutality/savagery above)-- from MY HandYou shall lie down (in Hell) in torment.
ISAIAH 50/11
13- This is the path of those who have foolish confidence;
yet after them people approve of their boasts.14- Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol (=Grave or/and Hell);
death shall be their shepherd,
and the upright shall rule over them in the morning.
Their form shall be for consumption; Sheol (=Grave or/and Hell) will be a dwelling for him.15- But GOD will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol (=Grave or/and Hell);
for HE will receive me.PSALMS-ZABOOR 49/13-15
20- But the wicked are like the tossing sea;
for it cannot be quiet,
and its waters toss up mire and dirt.21- There shall be no "peace,? says my GOD, ?for the wicked? (in Hell).
ISAIAH 57/20-21
*In an exact similar/same manner,
for example
"Jannah" is used in QURAN TESTAMENT to refer to a worldly "Garden," or/and also otherworldly "Paradise."
so also "Jahannam" may coherently be understood as such therein again
to refer to a worldly "Grave," or/and also otherworldly "Hell."====================
28- And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather fear HIM Who can torment both soul and body in Hell.GOSPEL, Matthew 10/28
22- The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham?s side. The rich man also died and was buried,
23- and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24- And he called out, ?O father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
for I am in anguish in this flame.?25- But Abraham said, ?Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things;
but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.26- And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed,
in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.?GOSPEL, Luke 16/22-26
This same great chasm between the dwellers of Hell and dwellers of Paradise
is also clearly emphasized in QURAN TESTAMENT here (=7/46-51 & 57/13-14)And I strongly believe that
Paradise and Hell are not Metaphors, at all,
but they are (at least) as "Real" as this World, and very "Similar" with regard to all provisions
therein====================
25- And give good news to those who believe and do good works
that they will have estates with Rivers flowing beneath them.
Every time they receive a provision of its fruit, they say
"This is what we have been provisioned before" (in the Worldly Life) for they are given it, similarly.
And there they will have pure companions, and in it they will abide.(QURAN TESTAMENT 2/25)
X X X
5- They (=the Wicked who willfully commit such savageries/atrocities/brutalities here =85/4-10) will enter
a blazing Hell-Fire (=i.e. they will be living in a very hot Planet).6- And be given to drink from a boiling spring (therein).
7- They will have no food except from a thorny plant.
8- It does not nourish nor avail against hunger (therein).
--(as a Most Equitable, Just and Fair Requital for what they have willfully committed
with their own hands here, and (if) never truly repented thereafter here 85/4-10 = 40/17, 40)
107- Abiding therein (=Hell-Fire) as long as the heavens and the earth exist, except for what your LORD wills
(=i.e. perhaps, our LORD may accept the Repentance of anyone who truly repents and return to HIM in Hell-Fire
and immediately admit them into HIS Paradise therein, when/if HE wills so.)
or/and
(=i.e. perhaps, our LORD may decide to end the existence of anyone who suffered enough therein
but still has no intention to truly repent and return to HIM even in Hell-Fire therein,
but also has no intention to willfully commit such savageries/atrocities/brutalities anymore (=85/4-10) either,
and thus may totally end their existence --according to their wish-- therein, when/if HE wills so.)Certainly, your LORD is --(Most Gracious, Most Merciful =1/1
Most Equitable, Just and Fair)-- Doer of whatever HE wills. (=40/17, 40)(QURAN TESTAMENT 88/5-8 = 11/107)
Remain in peace/salaam.
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Peace all,
.............
I know there are Sufi understandings of one verse that claims to speak about Hell as feminine or as a mother, and people interpret it that way,
but I don't believe anyone here has accepted that the Arabic text truly reflects that understanding..............
Salaam/Peace Comrox,
It is very interesting indeed, dear Sister/Friend.
I can truly and wholeheartedly accept it based on this Most Essential Perspective,
here====================
In the Name of AL-LAH, the Most-Gracious, the Most-Merciful.
...........
6- (On that Day), As for him/her whose weights are heavy.
7- Then he/she will be in a happy life.
8- As for him/her whose weights are light.
9- Then his/her Mother (=faUmmuhu) will be Abyss.
10- And what make you conceive what that (Abyss) is?
11- A blazing Fire (=i.e. like a gracious and merciful Mother
may chastise her child harshly (by fire emotional burning) to make him/her return from destructive/evil ways and habits here,our Most-Gracious and Most-Merciful Lord AL-LAH above
may Chastise HIS Servants harshly (through that gracious and merciful Mother = Abyss,
and by that Fire therein emotional Burning) to make them return from destructive/evil ways and habits, in the Hereafter.)(QURAN TESTAMENT 101/6-11)
In this respect, we should also absolutely see again, first of all,
=QURAN TESTAMENT 88/5-8 = 11/107
at the very end of the previous post.
Remain in peace/salaam.
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Quote from hanslan on August 17, 2016, 072101 AM
I think what is meant here is the rejector then knows / realises that hell will be forever thus the rejector wishes to be dust instead of being in hell forever.
That's also an assumption though, although still a possibility, that the "rejecter" is specifically fearing the punishment of eternal Hell instead of just the punishment itself. One doesn't have to recognize something is permanent before wishing for a different fate.
Hell is like permanent for a person who does not decide to develop.
Quote from hanslan on August 17, 2016, 072101 AM
With respect to you, The Creator's attributes cannot be fully understood by us, thus our measure on fairness is limited to what we know which is very limited. The Creator can create and can destroy at will. Who are we with limited knowledge to judge what is fair?
Who has told you this? And logic can work out what is fair. Logic is a powerful tool. Illogical judgment is not fair.
Be well
Amenuel -
Peace truthseeker11,
Peace Comrox,
4168 Those who have rejected and did wrong, God was not to forgive them, nor guide them to a path.
4169 Except to the path of Hell, they will abide therein eternally. For God this is very easy.7223 "To simply proclaim from God, and His messages." And whoever disobeys God and His messenger, then he will have the fire of Hell to dwell eternally therein.
4128 Such is the recompense for the enemies of God. The Fire shall be their eternal abode, as a recompense for their discarding Our revelations.
In case someone doubts that hell has fire, 7223 clarifies it by mentioning both.
- In these verses there is no exception stated as in 11106-107 and 6128 (which by itself causes an apparent contradiction with verses stated above).
Then the question must become if the translation is correct... In 4128 the root meanings of l-khul'di can either mean to remain/continue forever/endlessly or stay/dwell/abode.
Kh-Lam-Dal = To remain/stay/dwell/abode, to remain or continue incessantly/always/endlessly/forever/perpetually, to adorn another with ornaments, to be slow in becoming hoary (when advanced in age), endowed with perpetual vigour
LL, V2, p 419, 420
So which is the right understanding?
To eliminate the contradiction with 6128 and 11106-108, it sounds like one would have to choose the first root understanding. Even so, we shouldn't go with the meaning that is convenient but correct.
I can't speak on abadan as the information doesn't seem to be there, as far as PRL is concerned. I presume you've looked at both?
- 11106 and 6128 do not say "eternal" like above verses say, so those verses cannot be used as a defense against eternal hell or fire anyway - no exception to ETERNAL hell or fire in the quran).
I've yet to be convinced that we're still speaking of something eternal here. But still, if in those verses there can't be an argument for or against, then perhaps one should simply take the understanding from those verses that God can always do what He wills.
572 Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is the Messiah, son of Mary." And the Messiah said "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets up partners with God, then God will restrict Paradise from him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."
448 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives other than that for whom He pleases. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed invented a great sin.
4116 God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives other than that for whom He pleases. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed strayed a far straying.If you combine 572 with 448, 4116 then it is crystal clear that fire will be eternal for those who set up partners with God because God will never forgive them. Another evidence of eternal fire.
This will also contradict with 2147; what irreversible/irreparable harm is done to the infinite Creator by setting up partners, that justifies punishment in an eternal fire with no chance of forgiveness? There is no partner with the infinite Creator in reality, thus setting up partners with the infinite Creator by a 3rd density being in this temporary illusion of physical existence is nothing but a fantasy. How can a fantasy irreversibly/irreparably harm the infinite Creator?
In my understanding
Rapid return to the infinite Creator = "heaven".
Delay in return to the infinite Creator = "hell".Peace
572 is troubling I agree. I know forum members have said in the past that not being forgiven doesn't necessarily mean one will go to Hell, but 572 seems to paint a clear and opposing ruling to those thoughts.
But then again, in 572 they're not just called a "rejecter" but a kafir, and this can start that discussion once again...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608193.0
Peace!
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Peace LastDay3,
Salaam/Peace Comrox,
It is very interesting indeed, dear Sister/Friend.
I can truly and wholeheartedly accept it based on this Most Essential Perspective,
here====================
In the Name of AL-LAH, the Most-Gracious, the Most-Merciful.
...........
6- (On that Day), As for him/her whose weights are heavy.
7- Then he/she will be in a happy life.
8- As for him/her whose weights are light.
9- Then his/her Mother (=faUmmuhu) will be Abyss.
10- And what make you conceive what that (Abyss) is?
11- A blazing Fire (=i.e. like a gracious and merciful Mother
may chastise her child harshly (by fire emotional burning) to make him/her return from destructive/evil ways and habits here,our Most-Gracious and Most-Merciful Lord AL-LAH above
may Chastise HIS Servants harshly (through that gracious and merciful Mother = Abyss,
and by that Fire therein emotional Burning) to make them return from destructive/evil ways and habits, in the Hereafter.)(QURAN TESTAMENT 101/6-11)
In this respect, we should also absolutely see again, first of all,
=QURAN TESTAMENT 88/5-8 = 11/107
at the very end of the previous post.
Remain in peace/salaam.
Thank you for the information. ) Interesting enough critics seem to disagree that this verse points to Hell being some sort of nourishment given that there's no indicating from the text of anyone specifically caring for anyone else. They interpret that the Arabic reflects only an understanding that the home/destiny/dwelling of the person is Hell.
Literally, the translation is "His abode (will be the) Pit."? How do you reconcile this with your understanding?
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..............
572 is troubling I agree. I know forum members have said in the past that not being forgiven doesn't necessarily mean one will go to Hell,
but 572 seems to paint a clear and opposing ruling to those thoughts..............
Salaam/Peace Comrox,
I believe, we should always read the QURANIC Verses in its whole Context, to get the Whole Picture, the Whole Answer
to every question, my dear Sister/Friend.==========
48- AL-LAH does not forgive that partners be set up with HIM (=if this Gross Sin is committed by someone
to the very last breath of his/her Worldly Life here, first of all =4/17-18,and then if he/she also will never repent and return to AL-LAH, truthfully, but continue to lie about it even in the Hereafter =6/27-28),
so if he/she truly repents and returns to AL-LAH, truthfully, even in the Hereafter, AL-LAH may forgive him/her and admit them
into HIS Paradise even therein =11/107), ...........QURAN TESTAMENT 4/48 = 4/17-18 = 6/27-28 = 11/107
For this reason, our Lord AL-LAH commands unto us to read the QURAN in its whole Context
to get the Whole Explanation, the Whole Answer to every question (=75/18-19),
and to clearly understand that there is no Contradiction in QURAN TESTAMENT (=4/82),
for those who will carefully read and thoroughly and rightfully reflect upon it from cover to cover (=yatadabbaroona AL-QURAN
here =4/82 & 75/18-19),to rightfully learn about The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful
The Most Fair and The Most Equitable Nature of our Lord AL-LAH. (=40/7, 17, 40)Remain in peace/salaam.
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Peace LastDay3,
Thank you for the information. Interesting enough critics seem to disagree that this verse points to Hell being some sort of nourishment
given that there's no indicating from the text of anyone specifically caring for anyone else.
They interpret that the Arabic reflects only an understanding that the home/destiny/dwelling of the person is Hell.Literally, the translation is "His abode (will be the) Pit."?
How do you reconcile this with your understanding?Salaam/Peace Comrox,
I believe, we must ask the right Questions at the right time/places,
to get the Right Answers, in this respect here===========================
In the Name of AL-LAH, the Most-Gracious, the Most-Merciful.
...........
9- Then his/her Mother (=faUmmuhu) will be Abyss.
10- And what make you conceive what that (Abyss) is?
11- (It is) a blazing Fire.
(QURAN TESTAMENT 101/9-11)
Question Who assigns that Abyss = blazing Fire unto those rejecters above?
Answer Our Lord AL-LAH, the Most-Gracious, the Most-Merciful above.
(*Please, absolutely note that these two Attributes of AL-LAH (=the Most-Gracious, the Most-Merciful)
--both of which is derived from the same root Ra-Ha-Ma (=which means Immense Compassion)
in Arabic--is emphasized in the very beginning of every Chapter throughout QURAN TESTAMENT
those that are completely describing Hell and its Dwellers, in its entirety (=for example Chapter 104, 105, 111, ....).So we may directly and rightfully infer here that
our Lord AL-LAH has created Hell --(not as a "torture center" but absolutely as a "Giant Rehabilitation Center")--
due to HIS being the Most-Gracious, the Most-Merciful unto all of HIS Servants, in the first place above.)Question Our Lord AL-LAH assigns that Abyss = blazing Fire above unto those rejecters, as what?
Answer HE assigns that Abyss = blazing Fire above unto those rejecters, as a gracious and merciful "Mother" above (=101/9)
who may chastise her children harshly (by blazing Fire emotional Burning) to make them return from their destructive/evil ways and
habits therein, even in the Hereafter.
*Please, certainly note that
due to the Fact that our Lord AL-LAH requites every evil-act by making the committers of it
taste (nothing else but) the exact similar/same of their own evil-act (=6/160),
so if a rejecter here has never used such physical evil-act unto believers here (=85/4-10),
that blazing Fire he/she will taste may only be emotional Burning in Hell, not physical;
hence I have rightfully translated it as emotional Burning here in this respect above.)
So in this respect, let us clearly see again
this most Essential and important Verse here====================
107- Abiding therein (=Hell-Fire Emotional-Burning) as long as the heavens and the earth exist,
except for what your LORD wills(=i.e. perhaps, our LORD may thus accept the Repentance of anyone who truly repents and return to HIM in Hell-Fire
and immediately admit them into HIS Paradise even therein, when/if HE wills so. =25/70-71)or/and
(=i.e. perhaps, our LORD may thus decide to end the existence of anyone who suffered enough therein
but still has no intention to truly repent and return to HIM even in Hell-Fire therein,
but also has no intention to willfully commit such savageries/atrocities/brutalities anymore (=85/4-10) either,
and thus may totally end their existence --according to their wish-- therein, when/if HE wills so. =28/8(For) certainly, your LORD is --(Most Gracious, Most Merciful =1/1
Most Fair, Most Equitable)-- Doer of whatever HE wills. (=40/17, 40)(=QURAN TESTAMENT 11/107)
Remain in peace/salaam.
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Peace Comrox,
Then the question must become if the translation is correct... In 4128 the root meanings of l-khul'di can either mean to remain/continue forever/endlessly or stay/dwell/abode.
Kh-Lam-Dal = To remain/stay/dwell/abode, to remain or continue incessantly/always/endlessly/forever/perpetually, to adorn another with ornaments, to be slow in becoming hoary (when advanced in age), endowed with perpetual vigour
LL, V2, p 419, 420
So which is the right understanding?
To eliminate the contradiction with 6128 and 11106-108, it sounds like one would have to choose the first root understanding. Even so, we shouldn't go with the meaning that is convenient but correct.
7223 and 4169 have both "khalideen" and "abadan" which cannot be interpreted as "remain forever therein forever", which makes it more likely that 4128 indicates "remain/stay/dwell" and not "remain forever". That still leaves 7223 and 4169 indicating eternal hell with no exception mentioned in those verses. Also 572 in combination with 448, 4116.
I can't speak on abadan as the information doesn't seem to be there, as far as PRL is concerned. I presume you've looked at both?
The triliteral root hamza b dl ( د occurs 28 times in the quran as the time adverb abadan (ا and nowhere it can be interpreted as "limited/finite". Please see Lane's Lexicon for dictionary meanings
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000041.pdf
"Abadan" always indicates forever, endless, unlimited etc. and does not allow a finite/limited understanding like "khalideen". This is proof of eternal hell, with no exceptions mentioned in those verses, therefore no way around it. This clearly contradicts with the non-eternal hell of 11106-107 and 6128. The quran has no problem mentioning exceptions multiple times, so why no exception mentioned in 4169, 7223, 448, 4116, 4137, 4168, 636, 4734? For example 5720, 136 (which contradict the verses just mentioned).
How can covering/concealing the truth in a limited/finite life justify an eternal hell with no chance of forgiveness? Covering/concealing the truth in a temporary finite illusion is just a fantasy and does not cover/conceal the truth in reality. What irreversible/irreparable harm is done to the infinite Creator by a fantasy of covering/concealing the truth in a limited/finite lifetime, that justifies eternal punishment? That would clearly contradict with 2147.
Peace
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The triliteral root hamza b dl ( د occurs 28 times in the quran as the time adverb abadan (ا
and nowhere it can be interpreted as "limited/finite". Please see Lane's Lexicon for dictionary meaningshttp//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000041.pdf
"Abadan" always indicates forever, endless, unlimited etc. and does not allow a finite/limited understanding like "khalideen".
This is proof of eternal hell, with no exceptions mentioned in those verses, therefore no way around it.
This clearly contradicts with the non-eternal hell of 11106-107 and 6128.
The quran has no problem mentioning exceptions multiple times, so why no exception mentioned in 4169, 7223, 448, 4116, 4137, 4168, 636, 4734?
For example 5720, 136 (which contradict the verses just mentioned).
Salaam/Peace my dear Fellow-Friend TruthSeeker11,
This "Exception" emphasized in 11/107 here
====================
107- Abiding therein (=Hell-Fire Emotional-Burning) as long as the heavens and the earth exist,
except for what your LORD wills(=i.e. perhaps, our LORD may thus accept the Repentance of anyone who truly repents and return to HIM in Hell-Fire
and immediately admit them into HIS Paradise even therein, when/if HE wills so. =25/70-71)or/and
(=i.e. perhaps, our LORD may thus decide to end the existence of anyone who suffered enough therein
but still has no intention to truly repent and return to HIM even in Hell-Fire therein,
but also has no intention to willfully commit such savageries/atrocities/brutalities anymore (=85/4-10) either,
and thus may totally end their existence --according to their wish-- therein, when/if HE wills so. =28/8(For) certainly, your LORD is --(Most Gracious, Most Merciful =1/1
Most Fair, Most Equitable)-- Doer of whatever HE wills. (=40/17, 40)(=QURAN TESTAMENT 11/107)
should absolutely be Valid for all of those other Verses
you referred to above (=4169, 7223, 448, 4116, 4137, 4168, 636, 4734),
because it is emphasized thus in the above Verse.... abiding therein (=khalideena fiyha) as long as the heavens and the earth exist (=ma damat alsamawat wa alalard), .....
that automatically includes the verb (=abadan forever) therein (implicitly)
because those the heavens and the earth must exist (=abadan forever)
so that the Paradise and the Hell therein would exist (=abadan forever) above.So, in this Light here, there is no Contradiction in the whole QURAN TESTAMENT again at all (=4/82),
because this "Exception" emphasized in 11/107 above
is thus absolutely Valid for/in all occasions in all of these Verses throughout the whole QURAN TESTAMENT(11/107) = (4/169, 72/23, 4/48, 4/116, 4/137, 4/168, 63/6, 47/34, 13/6, 57/20, ......).
How can covering/concealing the truth in a limited/finite life justify an eternal hell with no chance of forgiveness?
Covering/concealing the truth in a temporary finite illusion is just a fantasy and does not cover/conceal the truth in reality.
What irreversible/irreparable harm is done to the infinite Creator by a fantasy of covering/concealing the truth in a limited/finite lifetime, that justifies eternal punishment?
That would clearly contradict with 2147.
Peace
Based on those fundamental Verses above, I strongly believe
there is always chance of Forgiveness --(due to that most specific "Exception" emphasized in 11/107 above)-- in the first place;
so all your such baseless assumptions and erroneous inferences above does not have any merit, at all, in this Light above.As for those who willfully cover The Truth, and try to despise AL-LAH --(by unjustly and deliberately portraying HIM
as a "primitive god" with "full of contradictions" and "no sense of mercy and justice and equity," at all)--and feel no obligation to deeply respect and rightfully serve HIM,
but instead they chose to serve many other false and imaginary "gods" (=these are called "jibt" and "taghoot" in QURAN TESTAMENT =4/51-53)
which they concoct and adore in their sick minds,then every intelligent, perfectly sane and moral and conscious Being should appreciate
and wholeheartedly support the Fact that"then the One and Only God AL-LAH has Rightfully no Obligation to respect such sick minded and deeply ungrateful Servants,
and has no Obligation to feed and care for them, --(let their false and imaginary "gods"
which they concocted and adored in their sick minds, feed and care for them, "infinitely"--until they truthfully repent and return to AL-LAH,
by wholeheartedly and rightfully recognizing thatHE is the One and Only GOD,
The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful,
The Most Fair, The Most Equitable,
with Perfect Sense of Immense-Mercy and Absolute-Justice and Absolute-Equity, (=40/7, 17, 40)
with absolutely no Contradiction (=4/82) and absolutely no Injustice, at all (=21/47 & 6/160).AL-LAH's Immense Mercy and Compassion and Forgiveness is always Absolutely Valid
for all those who will truthfully repent and return to HIM,
in this Best Manner here (=QURAN TESTAMENT 25/68-69-70-71)Remain in peace/salaam.
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Peace truthseeker11,
Peace Comrox,
7223 and 4169 have both "khalideen" and "abadan" which cannot be interpreted as "remain forever therein forever", which makes it more likely that 4128 indicates "remain/stay/dwell" and not "remain forever". That still leaves 7223 and 4169 indicating eternal hell with no exception mentioned in those verses. Also 572 in combination with 448, 4116.
The triliteral root hamza b dl ( د occurs 28 times in the quran as the time adverb abadan (ا and nowhere it can be interpreted as "limited/finite". Please see Lane's Lexicon for dictionary meanings
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000041.pdf
"Abadan" always indicates forever, endless, unlimited etc. and does not allow a finite/limited understanding like "khalideen". This is proof of eternal hell, with no exceptions mentioned in those verses, therefore no way around it. This clearly contradicts with the non-eternal hell of 11106-107 and 6128. The quran has no problem mentioning exceptions multiple times, so why no exception mentioned in 4169, 7223, 448, 4116, 4137, 4168, 636, 4734? For example 5720, 136 (which contradict the verses just mentioned).
How can covering/concealing the truth in a limited/finite life justify an eternal hell with no chance of forgiveness? Covering/concealing the truth in a temporary finite illusion is just a fantasy and does not cover/conceal the truth in reality. What irreversible/irreparable harm is done to the infinite Creator by a fantasy of covering/concealing the truth in a limited/finite lifetime, that justifies eternal punishment? That would clearly contradict with 2147.
Peace
Thank you for the information and link to your source.
Giving me something more to ponder about. (As always!)
--
For Ervin and anyone else interested, here are the other threads I could find on this forum which discuss and debate the eternity of Hell
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7480.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9538.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12304.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13192.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15186.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596786.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598226.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602036.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607706.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608381.0
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Salaam Comrox,
'On another note, does anyone know the root of Jahannam?
Two webpages here and here say the root is jeem haa meem. But Qur'an Corpus doesn't list it.
Maybe we can start by looking at the root. "
I have read that that the word "jahannam" comes from the word "gehenna"
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
Regards,
Janet. -
'On another note, does anyone know the root of Jahannam?
Two webpages here and here say the root is jeem haa meem. But Qur'an Corpus doesn't list it.
Maybe we can start by looking at the root. "
I have read that that the word "jahannam" comes from the word "gehenna"
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
Thanks, your finding is interesting...
For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith YHVH they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of Hinnom (Gehinnom), to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
-- Jeremiah 730-31Books in the Tanakh never mentioned "Hell" / "Jahannam" or any of such places of 'fire' and 'torture'..
It was mentioned first in the Gospel (Matt, Mark, Luke) and then appears in great length in the Quran..And based on the above, it seems YVHV Himself condemned the practices of human burning (Human Sacrifice Ritual) as performed by the sons of Judah (Judah Tribe), in which according to Jeremiah was performed in the valley of Hinnoom (Gehinnom) during his lifetime.
YHVH even added that "It never came into my heart"...
Yet on the Quran (and also Gospel) the supposedly the same God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob which is now named Allah (or "The Father" in the Gospel) threatened that He will torture human in a place full of fire named "Gehenna" or "Jahannam"..
YHVH definite have my vote on the matter...
I agree with Him that burning and torturing human (let alone for all eternity) is the most hideous evil deed indeed....PS It strengthen my current hypothesis that the Quran was written and/or authored by a "Jewish Christian"..
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Salaam Jafar,
I find your answer interesting as well. Another interesting thought is that the fire of hell "an-naar" which apparently burns and roasts mankind comes from the same root as "noor" which leads mankind to heaven. Two sides of the same coin perhaps.
Regards,
Janet. -
The Jews know well for en-nar
280 and 324.
Allah's bless and selam.