Do you really believe in the literal understanding of hell?

truthseeker11

Peace Comrox,

Then the question must become if the translation is correct... In 4128 the root meanings of l-khul'di can either mean to remain/continue forever/endlessly or stay/dwell/abode.

Kh-Lam-Dal = To remain/stay/dwell/abode, to remain or continue incessantly/always/endlessly/forever/perpetually, to adorn another with ornaments, to be slow in becoming hoary (when advanced in age), endowed with perpetual vigour

LL, V2, p 419, 420

So which is the right understanding?

To eliminate the contradiction with 6128 and 11106-108, it sounds like one would have to choose the first root understanding. Even so, we shouldn't go with the meaning that is convenient but correct.

7223 and 4169 have both "khalideen" and "abadan" which cannot be interpreted as "remain forever therein forever", which makes it more likely that 4128 indicates "remain/stay/dwell" and not "remain forever". That still leaves 7223 and 4169 indicating eternal hell with no exception mentioned in those verses. Also 572 in combination with 448, 4116.

I can't speak on abadan as the information doesn't seem to be there, as far as PRL is concerned. I presume you've looked at both?

The triliteral root hamza b dl ( &#1583 occurs 28 times in the quran as the time adverb abadan (&#1575 and nowhere it can be interpreted as "limited/finite". Please see Lane's Lexicon for dictionary meanings

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000041.pdf

"Abadan" always indicates forever, endless, unlimited etc. and does not allow a finite/limited understanding like "khalideen". This is proof of eternal hell, with no exceptions mentioned in those verses, therefore no way around it. This clearly contradicts with the non-eternal hell of 11106-107 and 6128. The quran has no problem mentioning exceptions multiple times, so why no exception mentioned in 4169, 7223, 448, 4116, 4137, 4168, 636, 4734? For example 5720, 136 (which contradict the verses just mentioned).

How can covering/concealing the truth in a limited/finite life justify an eternal hell with no chance of forgiveness? Covering/concealing the truth in a temporary finite illusion is just a fantasy and does not cover/conceal the truth in reality. What irreversible/irreparable harm is done to the infinite Creator by a fantasy of covering/concealing the truth in a limited/finite lifetime, that justifies eternal punishment? That would clearly contradict with 2147.

Peace

LastDay3

............

The triliteral root hamza b dl ( &#1583 occurs 28 times in the quran as the time adverb abadan (&#1575
and nowhere it can be interpreted as "limited/finite". Please see Lane's Lexicon for dictionary meanings

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000041.pdf

"Abadan" always indicates forever, endless, unlimited etc. and does not allow a finite/limited understanding like "khalideen".

This is proof of eternal hell, with no exceptions mentioned in those verses, therefore no way around it.

This clearly contradicts with the non-eternal hell of 11106-107 and 6128.

The quran has no problem mentioning exceptions multiple times, so why no exception mentioned in 4169, 7223, 448, 4116, 4137, 4168, 636, 4734?

For example 5720, 136 (which contradict the verses just mentioned).

Salaam/Peace my dear Fellow-Friend TruthSeeker11,

This "Exception" emphasized in 11/107 here

====================
107- Abiding therein (=Hell-Fire Emotional-Burning) as long as the heavens and the earth exist,
except for what your LORD wills

(=i.e. perhaps, our LORD may thus accept the Repentance of anyone who truly repents and return to HIM in Hell-Fire
and immediately admit them into HIS Paradise even therein, when/if HE wills so. =25/70-71)

or/and

(=i.e. perhaps, our LORD may thus decide to end the existence of anyone who suffered enough therein
but still has no intention to truly repent and return to HIM even in Hell-Fire therein,
but also has no intention to willfully commit such savageries/atrocities/brutalities anymore (=85/4-10) either,
and thus may totally end their existence --according to their wish-- therein, when/if HE wills so. =28/8

(For) certainly, your LORD is --(Most Gracious, Most Merciful =1/1
Most Fair, Most Equitable)-- Doer of whatever HE wills. (=40/17, 40)

(=QURAN TESTAMENT 11/107)

should absolutely be Valid for all of those other Verses
you referred to above (=4169, 7223, 448, 4116, 4137, 4168, 636, 4734),
because it is emphasized thus in the above Verse

.... abiding therein (=khalideena fiyha) as long as the heavens and the earth exist (=ma damat alsamawat wa alalard), .....

that automatically includes the verb (=abadan forever) therein (implicitly)
because those the heavens and the earth must exist (=abadan forever)
so that the Paradise and the Hell therein would exist (=abadan forever) above.

So, in this Light here, there is no Contradiction in the whole QURAN TESTAMENT again at all (=4/82),
because this "Exception" emphasized in 11/107 above
is thus absolutely Valid for/in all occasions in all of these Verses throughout the whole QURAN TESTAMENT

(11/107) = (4/169, 72/23, 4/48, 4/116, 4/137, 4/168, 63/6, 47/34, 13/6, 57/20, ......).

How can covering/concealing the truth in a limited/finite life justify an eternal hell with no chance of forgiveness?

Covering/concealing the truth in a temporary finite illusion is just a fantasy and does not cover/conceal the truth in reality.

What irreversible/irreparable harm is done to the infinite Creator by a fantasy of covering/concealing the truth in a limited/finite lifetime, that justifies eternal punishment?

That would clearly contradict with 2147.

Peace

Based on those fundamental Verses above, I strongly believe
there is always chance of Forgiveness --(due to that most specific "Exception" emphasized in 11/107 above)-- in the first place;
so all your such baseless assumptions and erroneous inferences above does not have any merit, at all, in this Light above.

As for those who willfully cover The Truth, and try to despise AL-LAH --(by unjustly and deliberately portraying HIM
as a "primitive god" with "full of contradictions" and "no sense of mercy and justice and equity," at all)--

and feel no obligation to deeply respect and rightfully serve HIM,
but instead they chose to serve many other false and imaginary "gods" (=these are called "jibt" and "taghoot" in QURAN TESTAMENT =4/51-53)
which they concoct and adore in their sick minds,

then every intelligent, perfectly sane and moral and conscious Being should appreciate
and wholeheartedly support the Fact that

"then the One and Only God AL-LAH has Rightfully no Obligation to respect such sick minded and deeply ungrateful Servants,
and has no Obligation to feed and care for them, --(let their false and imaginary "gods"
which they concocted and adored in their sick minds, feed and care for them, "infinitely&quot--

until they truthfully repent and return to AL-LAH,
by wholeheartedly and rightfully recognizing that

HE is the One and Only GOD,
The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful,
The Most Fair, The Most Equitable,
with Perfect Sense of Immense-Mercy and Absolute-Justice and Absolute-Equity, (=40/7, 17, 40)
with absolutely no Contradiction (=4/82) and absolutely no Injustice, at all (=21/47 & 6/160).

AL-LAH's Immense Mercy and Compassion and Forgiveness is always Absolutely Valid
for all those who will truthfully repent and return to HIM,
in this Best Manner here (=QURAN TESTAMENT 25/68-69-70-71)

Remain in peace/salaam.

Comrox

Peace truthseeker11,

Peace Comrox,

7223 and 4169 have both "khalideen" and "abadan" which cannot be interpreted as "remain forever therein forever", which makes it more likely that 4128 indicates "remain/stay/dwell" and not "remain forever". That still leaves 7223 and 4169 indicating eternal hell with no exception mentioned in those verses. Also 572 in combination with 448, 4116.

The triliteral root hamza b dl ( &#1583 occurs 28 times in the quran as the time adverb abadan (&#1575 and nowhere it can be interpreted as "limited/finite". Please see Lane's Lexicon for dictionary meanings

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000041.pdf

"Abadan" always indicates forever, endless, unlimited etc. and does not allow a finite/limited understanding like "khalideen". This is proof of eternal hell, with no exceptions mentioned in those verses, therefore no way around it. This clearly contradicts with the non-eternal hell of 11106-107 and 6128. The quran has no problem mentioning exceptions multiple times, so why no exception mentioned in 4169, 7223, 448, 4116, 4137, 4168, 636, 4734? For example 5720, 136 (which contradict the verses just mentioned).

How can covering/concealing the truth in a limited/finite life justify an eternal hell with no chance of forgiveness? Covering/concealing the truth in a temporary finite illusion is just a fantasy and does not cover/conceal the truth in reality. What irreversible/irreparable harm is done to the infinite Creator by a fantasy of covering/concealing the truth in a limited/finite lifetime, that justifies eternal punishment? That would clearly contradict with 2147.

Peace

Thank you for the information and link to your source.

Giving me something more to ponder about. (As always!)

--

For Ervin and anyone else interested, here are the other threads I could find on this forum which discuss and debate the eternity of Hell

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7480.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9538.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12304.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13192.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15186.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596786.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598226.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602036.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607706.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608381.0

janet

Salaam Comrox,

'On another note, does anyone know the root of Jahannam?

Two webpages here and here say the root is jeem haa meem. But Qur'an Corpus doesn't list it.

Maybe we can start by looking at the root. "

I have read that that the word "jahannam" comes from the word "gehenna"

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

Regards,
Janet.

Jafar

'On another note, does anyone know the root of Jahannam?

Two webpages here and here say the root is jeem haa meem. But Qur'an Corpus doesn't list it.

Maybe we can start by looking at the root. "

I have read that that the word "jahannam" comes from the word "gehenna"

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

Thanks, your finding is interesting...

For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith YHVH they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of Hinnom (Gehinnom), to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
-- Jeremiah 730-31

Books in the Tanakh never mentioned "Hell" / "Jahannam" or any of such places of 'fire' and 'torture'..
It was mentioned first in the Gospel (Matt, Mark, Luke) and then appears in great length in the Quran..

And based on the above, it seems YVHV Himself condemned the practices of human burning (Human Sacrifice Ritual) as performed by the sons of Judah (Judah Tribe), in which according to Jeremiah was performed in the valley of Hinnoom (Gehinnom) during his lifetime.

YHVH even added that "It never came into my heart"...

Yet on the Quran (and also Gospel) the supposedly the same God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob which is now named Allah (or "The Father" in the Gospel) threatened that He will torture human in a place full of fire named "Gehenna" or "Jahannam"..

YHVH definite have my vote on the matter...
I agree with Him that burning and torturing human (let alone for all eternity) is the most hideous evil deed indeed....

PS It strengthen my current hypothesis that the Quran was written and/or authored by a "Jewish Christian"..

janet

Salaam Jafar,

I find your answer interesting as well. Another interesting thought is that the fire of hell "an-naar" which apparently burns and roasts mankind comes from the same root as "noor" which leads mankind to heaven. Two sides of the same coin perhaps.

Regards,
Janet.

Aladin_from_Azra_tribe

The Jews know well for en-nar

280 and 324.

Allah's bless and selam.

Man_of_Faith

I would love to give my input, but I am giving too controversial input for this forum.

Be well
Amenuel

Cerberus

all these creatures of God using wikipedia to figure out the "true" meaning of Jehennom when their mother have taught them how to tie their shoes.

janet

Salaam to all,

The ayats referring to the places/states of being which are called heaven and hell seem to always use the words "a-b-d" and "kh-l-d" to describe the people in them. Examples are many 225, 239, 281, 282, 2217, 3107, 3116, 580, 736, 922, 9100, 972, 183 ....

Alif-Ba-Dal = he remained/stayed, abode, dwelt constantly/permanently, to render perpetual, time (in an absolute sense), long time, endless/eternal/forever, unlimited/indivisible, lasting/everlasting, unsocial/unfamiliar, never (when used in negative construction).

kuld) to remain or last ( kalada u
forever, be everlasting; to be immortal, deathless, undying; to abide forever ( or or or ( in, with); to remain, stay ;to rest, relax )at a place to lie down to sleep II to make eternal or everlasting, perpetuate, eternalize ( s.th.), make immortal, immortalize ( s.o.); to make ineffaceable, unforgettable ( s.th.; a ( memory); to remain, stay, abide, linger at, in a place); to grow very old, enjoy a long life, be long-lived IV to eternize, ,.s.o ( immortalize, make immortal s.th.); to perpetuate ( s.th.); to remain, stay, abide, linger ( or at, in a place)
( to be disposed, incline, lean, tend 253 to) V to become eternal or immortal, perpetuate o.s. j to be or become long, lasting, perpetual.

.see the next paragraph, in two places .made by God to continue for ever in such a state (A) a man who is not hoary when advanced in age (ISk, S) whose hair of his head and beard remains black in old age. (T.)
Also (assumed tropical) Still; motionless. (TA in art. .( see the paragraph next receding.
in the Kur means Always of the same age; never altering in age (Fr) or that never become decrepit (K) or that never exceed the fit age for service (L, K)

The difference between the two is that "kh-l-d" refers to being evergreen/immortal whereas "a-b-d" refers to eternity/forever.
The difference can be noticed when they are used in the same ayat.

The meaning of the above ayat is that the people who go to hell are eternally immortal in hell. The word "abda"/eternally in the ayat is describing the state of being "khalideen" not being in hell eternally.

Regards,
Janet.

Rekkd

I would love to give my input, but I am giving too controversial input for this forum.

Be well
Amenuel

Share your input. Pretty much you're the only one bringing something new to the table most of the time..

All the other members keep arguing if its eternal or not, for me it doesn't matter much because we wont know until after we die.

Man_of_Faith

Share your input. Pretty much you're the only one bringing something new to the table most of the time..

All the other members keep arguing if its eternal or not, for me it doesn't matter much because we wont know until after we die.

Unfortunately it makes me say something about the Arabic that the administration does not like even if I refer to ancient lexicons and explain my arguments. They are witch-hunting me right now. It probably makes many forum members happy though.

If you would like to hear any particular input from me it has to be in private or on my forum.

Be well
Amenuel

good_logic

Peace Rekkd.

How can Man Of Faith or anyone else know?
GOD says it is "Mathal" i,e allegory.

All opinions are guess work.
You have to wait like Man Of Faith has to wait like we all have to wait.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Rekkd

Peace Rekkd.

How can Man Of Faith or anyone else know?
GOD says it is "Mathal" i,e allegory.

All opinions are guess work.
You have to wait like Man Of Faith has to wait like we all have to wait.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Didn't say he knew. Just wanted to know his opinion, people that have a different perspective than the majority always interest me.

good_logic

Peace Rekkd.

It is fine by me.
I am only stating the fact that no one knows nor will ever know in this life.
GOD has kept certain things like Heaven and hell as allegorical and secret until we get there.

All we know is one will be a reward and the other a sanction.

But yes, you are welcome to seek opinions from whoever you choose brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

well its always interesting to listen everybody opinions..

everybody hav different immagination of hereafter...

so even we know the truth still we imagine.. and want to imagine what we like.. i still dnt understand why its methaphorical becoz we really dnt understand in this life what is the life hereafter.. even if we see infront of us , we still uable to solve it..

same like if you ask a question of master degree from a student of level one , he will not understand the question.. even if you show him answer , he will still unable to understand the answer...

so let every body imagine what life will be the hereafter as we know its just imagination... nothing else ,

reality of reality is itself a question what you will get to know definately not before hereafter...

Rekkd

Peace Rekkd.

It is fine by me.
I am only stating the fact that no one knows nor will ever know in this life.
GOD has kept certain things like Heaven and hell as allegorical and secret until we get there.

All we know is one will be a reward and the other a sanction.

But yes, you are welcome to seek opinions from whoever you choose brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

I know that's why I said we will know after we die D.
MoF believes hell is here, a whole different concept than what is commonly known among majority of people. So he brings in new ideas that always makes me question more and start to look at things from a different point of view. Maybe wtvr I get from him will help me on my journey to discovering the truth.

I believe I'm here for a reason, when I was a silent reader his posts really caught my attention. However, somethings I disagree with him on and I believe its impossible to change my mind when it comes to them.

HP_TECH

Indeed ungrateful it is to call or consider the life of the world Hell when your Lord Has Bestowed upon you innumerable Favors. Which of the favors of your Lord will you deny?

If one likes different opinions then perhaps one would consider how remaining silent and pondering is rather better than the entertaining of doubts.

Expecting to gain something from others on the Internet when one has not the means to truly ascertain whether these individuals are truly believers does not seem like the best way to get help on the journey. Especially when the explanation of The Reading is upon Allah and there is no Helper besides Him

Rekkd

Indeed ungrateful it is to call or consider the life of the world Hell when your Lord Has Bestowed upon you innumerable Favors. Which of the favors of your Lord will you deny?

If one likes different opinions then perhaps one would consider how remaining silent and pondering is rather better than the entertaining of doubts.

Expecting to gain something from others on the Internet when one has not the means to truly ascertain whether these individuals are truly believers does not seem like the best way to get help on the journey. Especially when the explanation of The Reading is upon Allah and there is no Helper besides Him

Lol sorry Sheikh HP_TECH, I did not seek or ask anyone for help. I don't care if MOF is a troll or if he even worships fairies, I'm not an idiot to follow or trust anyone blindly. Instead of pointing fingers and telling people what to do, please take a few lessons in manners and how to treat people.

My opinion is that hell is after we die, eternal too but I have doubts about that part.

Man_of_Faith

Didn't say he knew. Just wanted to know his opinion, people that have a different perspective than the majority always interest me.

I know, but the question is whether one believes me. The reason I know is because the information is disclosed and open to read about.

Additionally, someone injected a thought into my mind which said "development ground" when I strongly implored "what is Hell?" and I happen to realize the word Hell is from Germanic 'hel' which means whole and that is the purpose of this place. The Semitic counterpart means "attachment to bodily" which refers to the condition.

Unfortunately I have been warned by the administration about my activity in explaining Quran so I no longer make any references to it. It is not necessary anyway, for the truth stands out in spite of this. Quran, to me, is an instruction to reach people and reading it is like reading a teacher's book, so I can focus on the substance without making a reference. Those who wonder more can go to me privately.

Be well
Amenuel