Would you commit shirk if God told you so ?

[imrankhawaja]

That's sectarian corruption. Angels weren't seeing the future. The rest of the verses show that. Allah was putting blood shedders (already present on earth) into successor's role and the angels were just shocked by it.
In which verses?

the verses are here and its not a traditional translations...

230 Your Lord said to the controllers/angels, "I am placing a successor on earth." They said, "Would You place in it he who would corrupt it, and shed blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?" He said, "I know what you do not know."

231 He taught Adam the description of all things, and then He displayed them to the controllers/angels and said, "Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful."

232 They said, "Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except what You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.

233 He said, "O Adam, inform them of the descriptions of these." When he informed them of their descriptions, He said, "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of the heavens and the earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?

234 And We said to the angels "Yield to Adam," so they yielded except for ibless, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.

what you asked i represented you... now i will just gona ask one very simple question , show me a single verse from whole quran, what you claim in red part thanx in advance

Everything is God's creation. Let's just call the guy Iblees, his real name.

allright , satan is just an adjective for that guy... obviously his name is ibless...

[reel]

the verses are here and its not a traditional translations...

230 Your Lord said to the controllers/angels, "I am placing a successor on earth." They said, "Would You place in it he who would corrupt it, and shed blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?" He said, "I know what you do not know."

231 He taught Adam the description of all things, and then He displayed them to the controllers/angels and said, "Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful."

232 They said, "Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except what You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.

233 He said, "O Adam, inform them of the descriptions of these." When he informed them of their descriptions, He said, "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of the heavens and the earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?

234 And We said to the angels "Yield to Adam," so they yielded except for ibless, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.

what you asked i represented you... now i will just gona ask one very simple question , show me a single verse from whole quran, what you claim in red part thanx in advance

allright , satan is just an adjective for that guy... obviously his name is ibless...

Where is the competition with the angels? Angels knew before God that Adam genderation would be bloodshedders? They say this
They said, "Exalted are You; we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Indeed, it is You who is the Knowing, the Wise."232
Or do we believe as Invalid once wondered, humans multiplied through incest?
Note
Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.327
And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a growth7117

[Man_of_Faith]

Where is the competition with the angels? Angels knew before God that Adam genderation would be bloodshedders? They say this
They said, "Exalted are You; we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Indeed, it is You who is the Knowing, the Wise."232
Or do we believe as Invalid once wondered, humans multiplied through incest?
Note
Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.327
And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a growth7117

And you can see through that, that angels can master their own ability to think and reflect, i.e. they have an ability. In that sectarian interpretation the angels think every Adam will just cause havoc on Earth while "God" knows better and knows some Adam subjects will fare better than others.

Be well
Amenuel

[imrankhawaja]

Where is the competition with the angels? Angels knew before God that Adam genderation would be bloodshedders? They say this
They said, "Exalted are You; we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Indeed, it is You who is the Knowing, the Wise."232
Or do we believe as Invalid once wondered, humans multiplied through incest?
Note
Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.327
And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a growth7117

u asked me about competetion(event).. i represent the verses ,31-33 in which God ask things from adam and controllers.. adam told the names whereas angels could not... competetion game test exam contest whatever anybody wish give that situation a name, i used competetion... even if i dnt use it , it will not gona change the fact ... that human being won that test/competetion/event/contest/exam , and hence verse 34 is a prize /previlege to humanity from controllers... with the command of God.. btw you can remove the word competetion and about this situation find a word let me know that word . we will see that fit there or not.. lol

is it really hard to understand?

and again i was looking for what you claim... in red part... do u find any verse or still searching...?

[Furqan]

Salam

Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

[Cerberus]

230 Your Lord said to the controllers/angels, "I am placing a successor on earth." They said, "Would You place in it he who would corrupt it, and shed blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?" He said, "I know what you do not know."

What makes "successor" relate to Adam and not to Iblis ? Or something else other than the two ?

[hansolo]

Cerberus bravo

I never though of it this way. Thanks to the interpretations by other "experts" I guess.
However your insight made me think that, Yeah! Why Adam ? Maybe it was Iblis ? Or someone other .

[HP_TECH]

What makes "successor" relate to Adam and not to Iblis ? Or something else other than the two ?

Because Iblis was one of the malaika... and the malaika had just questioned The Creator why He would place any corruptors while they sing His Glory and Praise Him.

The jinn were created from before, I strongly suspect they were the ones on earth transgressing.

Some call them reptilians
Scientists call them dinosaurs

We should know better they are still here not extinct

[hansolo]

Jinns/Reptilians/Dinosaurs is still here ?

And on what is your claim based on?

Do you know that you have a Reptilian Brain core, just like every human being on Earth. And this brain core is responsible for things like wanting to eat, fornicate, and other lusts. Which God teaches us to not get attached to.

https//k12.thoughtfullearning.com/sites/k12/files/blogPost/images/brain_image.jpg

Dont you see that our bodies are our enemies ? The serpent is inside of our brains ?

http//mikelev.in/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lizard-brain-300x285.gif

The Garden of Eden might be just an allegory to the constant fight between our higher self and serpent/reptilian core brain, which drives/deceives us to eat those "forbidden fruits".

[Man_of_Faith]

Thumbs up, hansolo. It is like you can replace my preaching so I can take a breather.

If taking a look at the word Shaytan in etymology it is possible to reach your logical deduction.

So the "children of Israel" are always mindful of that affliction upon them which is not a gift but an immense trial. It was made to corrupt and to be a contradiction. Furthermore even the word "children of Israel" is a code name very few of the sons/daughters of man know about.

Be well
Amenuel

[Man_of_Faith]

Because Iblis was one of the malaika... and the malaika had just questioned The Creator why He would place any corruptors while they sing His Glory and Praise Him.

The jinn were created from before, I strongly suspect they were the ones on earth transgressing.

Some call them reptilians
Scientists call them dinosaurs

We should know better they are still here not extinct

Even in the sectarian interpretation of Quran you never see it directly stated "Ibless" is Malaika but it is an inference based on assumptions which have no obvious basis. You will not see Ibless is Malaika in Quran.

[Cerberus]

Because Iblis was one of the malaika... and the malaika had just questioned The Creator why He would place any corruptors while they sing His Glory and Praise Him.

The jinn were created from before, I strongly suspect they were the ones on earth transgressing.

Some call them reptilians
Scientists call them dinosaurs

We should know better they are still here not extinct

A lot of points to bring up
Iblis was of the jins (as stated in the Quran), the only reason that he was called out an Angel is that he was with the angels who had to prostrate to of Adam. Conclusion ? He was a Jinn and an Angel, with Jinn being his Nature and Angel being his status.

The second point you brought up is quiet disturbing reptilians ? dinosaurs ? Such claims bring up clear contradictions with the following verse

2738 He said, "O commanders, which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me peacefully surrendering?"
2739 A powerful being from among the Jinn said, "I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy."
2740 One who had knowledge from the book said, "I will bring it to you before you blink." So when he saw it resting before him, he said, "This is from the grace of my Lord, so that He tests me whether I am thankful or whether I reject. As for he who is thankful, he is thankful for himself, and as for he who rejects, then my Lord is Rich, Bountiful."

How could a Jinn transport a massive object with an unparallel speed ? Energy perhaps..E=M.C?
take any mass, give to it a speed of c? and it becomes an energy. Likewise, take any energy, divide it by c? and you get a mass...I'm no expert here but bottom line is this goes way beyond Dinosaurs. One thing is that Jinn cannot be perceived and one needs a Logic or "Wisdom" to get to reach out for them.

Do you know that you have a Reptilian Brain core, just like every human being on Earth. And this brain core is responsible for things like wanting to eat, fornicate, and other lusts. Which God teaches us to not get attached to.

That's the "Jinn" concept of Man Of Faith, however, it still doesn't add up with many things such as the stated above. Also, they are called instincts and everyone has them even a sewer rat.

[HP_TECH]

Jinns/Reptilians/Dinosaurs is still here ?

Jinn not dinosaurs nor reptilians. Non corporeal ethereal beings hidden from your senses. That is what I am referring to. Interestingly the root jim nun nun in Arabic entails snake as well 2710 2831. In the Bible the Diablo/Iblis is also described as a serpent. Do you think it is a coincidence? Hence, with he understanding from Quran that jinn were created before us and perhaps inhabited the earth plane before us it is revealing to me that scientists of falsehood have claimed that Reptiles/Dinosaurs were dominant in the land before us and then went extinct...the shaytan always finds away to present the falsehood by twisting the truth a bit so you may drink of it and believe it. Keep studying.

And on what is your claim based on?

According to the Quran which as you have stated before you have not even finished. Go READ and stop making assumptions if you are a believer.

It is true that we are affected by desires but jinn are independent existing entities, agents.
How can I expect you to understand if you have not even finished The Reading...

[hansolo]

That's the "Jinn" concept of Man Of Faith, however, it still doesn't add up with many things such as the stated above. Also, they are called instincts and everyone has them even a sewer rat.

Yes, exactly. THE INSTINCTS. And now look at the 10 commandments

I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 2 6

Thou shalt have no other gods before me 3 7

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image 4?6 8?10

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain 7 11

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy 8?11 12?15

Honour thy father and thy mother 12 16

Thou shalt not kill 13 17

Thou shalt not commit adultery 14 18

Thou shalt not steal 15 19

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour 16 20

And...? )

Isn't it obvious, what are we fighting ? By following the commandments, you mostly fighting against your animal instincts. Isn't it obvious ?
You are mastering yourself. Mind over matter!

[hansolo]

And yeah. I see a very interesting tendency these days. People use a lot of words which they just accepted as the truth, without even clarifying its legitimacy first.

Please have a look

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMjEmSMN-yY

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMpVZ_p_7Bc

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KXzgeq1BuA

Dinosaurs hahahahaha

If the majority of people agrees on something as the Truth, doesn't mean that it is actually True.

Remember Jesus had 12 disciples. And humans such as Napoleon, Ghengis Khan and etc. Had millions of supporters.

Earthly desires, earthly desires my friends...

But how sad is the faith of those, who sold their infinite future for enjoyment for a moment.

[HP_TECH]

A lot of points to bring up
Iblis was of the jins (as stated in the Quran), the only reason that he was called out an Angel is that he was with the angels who had to prostrate to of Adam. Conclusion ? He was a Jinn and an Angel, with Jinn being his Nature and Angel being his status.

We are not in disagreement here at all actually.
Our Lord asks Iblis in
3875 He said, "O Iblis! What prevented you that you (should) prostrate to (one) whom I created with My Hands? Are you arrogant or are you of the exalted ones."
the exalted ones al alina

This is a title given to the malaika in verse 378 and 3869! The blind will not see not matter what you present them!

Also I do not claim to be an expert but whatever my Lord guides me to I will relate. You are interpreting 1850 as "He was of the jinn".
But the word kana in this verse is similar to kana in 3874 (Please read on your own). In 3874 we see that kana means became because Iblis was not always a kafoor/rejecter. In the same way it is very possible that Iblis was not always a jinn but became a jinn once he disobeyed the Command of His Lord. Jinn here can also mean a few different things and I will leave it to Allah to guide the readers to the sound judgement. Please study the Book and words you encounter with voracity and do not settle for dubious explanations which have no evidence in Quran like hansolos or ManofFaith's. We know that jinn entails

Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.

1)Hence this verse could be saying that Iblis became bereft of reason to let arrogance make him disobey His Creator and cost him eternity

2)It could also be indicating that Iblis as a a previous alina lost his title/power/wings and hence unfit to be in the samawati/garden. And His offspring and the jinn dwelling on earth being wingless(powerless without authority) cannot reach beyond the regions of the samawati walard.
(378 ),(5533!!) and on and on throughout Quran we read of jinn who sought to reach the heavens but found it filled with guards.

3)However, it could be a combinations of all three that Iblis was a certain species of Malaika, (that being jinn but maybe not exactly same type of jinn dwelling on the earth and I will explain why), and when he disobeyed His Lord's Command he became of the insane/bereft of reason/ confounded ones (jinn) and lost his authority/wings/power.

It is interesting to note that we understand that revelation knowledge and understanding of the matter is related to prophets through malaika messengers carrying command of their Lord. There is this understanding that malaika may be connected with aiding the believers in doing righteous deeds like supporting them in their salat(commitment/bonds/prayers). Perhaps this is another aspect of their authority/wings/power.

When Iblis was cast from Paradise he asked for respite, and he was allowed to whisper to man with his whisper.
Meaning that since he had become bereft of reason instead appealing to reason like the malaika in believers and messengers, he's now only capable of appealing to desire and instincts (shaytan).

It is related in Quran that Iblis offspring can do the same and he was "instructed" to assault on man with his cavalry and infantry. Iblis and his offspring can appeal to the desire of man and jinn as we understand from Surah 114 and other verses were it is indicated that jinn our on ways different some muslims and others otherwise. Therefore, it would seem it is possible Iblis and his offspring(the shaytan) are entirely different entities which are assigned to people(men and jinn) who are obstinate liar and wrongdoers(4336!!) that can whisper in the sudurin of both man and jinn.

The second point you brought up is quiet disturbing reptilians ? dinosaurs ? Such claims bring up clear contradictions with the following verse
How could a Jinn transport a massive object with an unparallel speed ? Energy perhaps..E=M.C?
take any mass, give to it a speed of c? and it becomes an energy. Likewise, take any energy, divide it by c? and you get a mass...I'm no expert here but bottom line is this goes way beyond Dinosaurs. One thing is that Jinn cannot be perceived and one needs a Logic or "Wisdom" to get to reach out for them.

We are not in disagreement one bit. Read my previous post in response to Hansolo. I am merely bringing together this inherent knowledge that "reptiles" lived on the earth before us, which is misguided and corrupted interpretation of the Truth which is that Jinn lived here on earth before us not dinosaurs ( I actually do not think dinosaurs existed but that is for another topic)

I seriously discourage anyone from claiming that the account of Allah speaking to the malaika is an allegory it is the TRUTH
I especially seriously discourage the ones who have not even read the Scripture from making such outlandish claims.
It is obviously not an allegory but those of knowledge know. And a word to the wise is enough...

PS Hansolo have you finished The Reading?

[Man_of_Faith]

For Jinn is only required to look for the stated definitions. It is not meaning hidden but the actual cover itself what is meant by the word. If a Jinn has affected you it is a cover (body) to your mind. The rest are conjecture points stated in lexicons and by so-called scholars. The Jennah is based on the same word and it is a bodily location/object. Jehennom is furthermore also based on the same root, and it basically means "attachment to outer layer".

Be well
Amenuel

[HP_TECH]

For Jinn is only required to look for the stated definitions. It is not meaning hidden but the actual cover itself what is meant by the word. If a Jinn has affected you it is a cover (body) to your mind. The rest are conjecture points stated in lexicons and by so-called scholars. The Jennah is based on the same word and it is a bodily location/object. Jehennom is furthermore also based on the same root, and it basically means "attachment to outer layer".

Be well
Amenuel

Look at this readers not one reference, not one citation from Quran nor Lexicons or whatever "book" he gets this information from...
All mere conjecture...

Be gone
rather....

[hawk99]

Great Topic! May I add, firstly When the angels were instructed to
"fall prostrate" before Adam we know it could not have been the same
as the prostration we make to Allah, therefore hansolo's question is valid
inasmuch as we are not to prostrate to none other than to our creator.
Therefore this particular sujud is one of "obeisance" that is to respect

o?bei?sance
bsns,b-/Submit
noun
noun obeisance
deferential respect.
"they paid obeisance to the prince"
synonyms respect, homage, worship, adoration, reverence, veneration, honor, submission, deference
"he made a very formal, elaborate gesture of obeisance"
a gesture expressing deferential respect, such as a bow or curtsy.
plural noun obeisances
"she made a deep obeisance"
synonyms bow, curtsy, bob, genuflection, salaam; historicalkowtow
"he made a half-bow, half-curtsy, a sort of unisex obeisance"

Please compare

= Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate, make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honor/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continually and tranquilly.
MSJD - parts of a man that are the places of SJD, e.g. forehead/nose/hands/knees/feet etc. Any mode/place/practice in which the act of SJD is done. My opinion only

peace

[hansolo]

So. After this incident with Iblis not obeying The All mighty. He was kicked out, out of Heaven? Yes!
So. Afterwards Adam and Eve were deceived by this same Iblis and they were kicked out too?
Wow this Iblis guy is really powerful. He was kicked out of the Heaven by Gods command. And shockingly he was able to come back to deceive the Humans so to say, so they'll join him to his trip down to Earth.

And, yes a question! When we talk about The heaven, we don't mean the paradise right?
So heaven is verything that is above us right? So when we say he was kicked out, out of heaven. We are in fact not talking about an exact place, right? Hmm....Maybe heavens are not what we think, after all...

And one more question!(You see I have a Phd in question asking, hehe )
So Iblis were with Angels and God before his death? Do things work even that way? And he asks God to make him live until the day of Judgment? Hmm... Sooo...A mortal being were among the Heavenly?
I thought one must die and than only on the judgement day he will be put into hell or into Heaven.

Interesting confused