Islamic State with Islamic Law - Is it Islam?
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"drfazl"
Peace,
You deffinately need to start to read Quran more. There are tons of laws in the Quran that God wants us to act upon and enforce.Please say what you have to from Quran regarding the enforcement of laws for the civilians even as they do not indulge in the spread of mischief, chaos and bloodshed. And you have said 'tons' of laws you have read in quran as you had spent your life mastering it. Just provide 'one' here from the tons that you have to start with.
regards.
Heres one for beginners.
(As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement. The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers. And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,
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I believe that what the Koran intends is a union of those who believe in God and believe in His message, being the Koran. An Islamic state? If you are referring to Dominion over lands then an Islamic state is not what the Koran commands.
The Koran states basically that no-one is to be coerced into accepting any system of government or philosophy. Therefore those who accept God's law, accept God's law. Those who do not accept it should not be coerced into accepting it.
That means that those who wish to unite under the banner of God's law stay united, accept their duties and the reprecussion of not upholding those duties.
Those who do not wish to accept their duty to God or do not wish to accept the reprecussion of not upholding those duties can opt to leave the union.
You see the the Koran does not encourage the concept of 'Dominion.' Because the dominion is God's. The Koran encourages the concept of Union, whereby God's loyalists use thier means and resources to support, protect and improve one another, living under God's law, examining it and making sure that is God's law and that the source of God's law is the message(s) that God has sent us.
So no, there shouldn't exist any Islamic state. There should exist a grand Union of God's loyalists, uniting under God and upholding His messages.
Godbless,
Anwar -
peace drfazl, progod,all
So no, there shouldn't exist any Islamic state. There should exist a grand Union of God's loyalists, uniting under God and upholding His messages.
I agree with progod. While mankind is in this state of mind as they are nowadays danger of oppressing people in a theocracy is just too high. How to deal with people who don't believe in God and in God's system? Punish them in the Name of God?... Very difficult.
?
Salam
warda -
Peace be upon you,
The laws of the God enforce themselves, you reap what you sow. The only way to see the truth is to look at the WHOLE. I agree with brother Fazl on the point that FORCE goes against PEACE. But does this mean that if someone in the community starts to murder people that we use no force against him? No. Again, we have to look at the WHOLE. And once we see that this one person is detrimental to the survival of the whole, force must then be applied.
The laws of the God are natural. We can learn them from reflection on the universe. This reading(quran) only points us back to the laws of the universe as do all spiritual teachings and thier prophets and messengers.
There cannot be a "state" where someone is FORCED to do anything because the God says there is NO COMPULSION in His system. But if tehre is such a state where people are living righteously, then you will find that the wicked man will want to get away from this society because he/she cannot thrive there. The wicked require a society that does not care about each other, and turns thier back on wickedness instead of SPEAKING OUT about it. Speaking out and warning and reminding is not compulsion.
In my community, I always here the elders state how life USED to be better when your neighbor up the street would reprimand your children for you if they were caught doing wrong, nowadays that is missing, and we can see the effects of this.
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God's blessings on all
I have held for a long time now that the key to the emergence of a community based on God's law would be through an ORGANIZATION or a SOCIETY. You see because of our unique situation, organization is more important than land. The organization and utilization of our resources towards a common goal is more important than OWNING land. God really owns the earth, and the message of our organization is borderless. We should be prevalent in all lands, speaking all languages, but the what keeps us together is not necessarily common land, but our common will to unite and to organize as one. In past times, and maybe even now that took proximity. But in an age of emails, letters, phone and other sort of communication the proximity is not necessarily needed unless we just want to be around people who share our same sense of morality and righteousness. But what is necessary for an organization to stay together are centers and conferences in its centers where members can be recognized and efforts can be agreed upon, and plans of execution can be drawn up.
That my friends is the intent of what we have been calling Al-masjid al-haraam, our qiblat, and al-hajj.
The sanctuary in its collective sense, better stated as 'Sanctuaries' is the meaning of Al-masjid-al-haraam. Sanctuaries are where God's loyalist can come to pay homage and devotions(no matter what the form, whether through communicating with God in prayer, educating each other or other good things). The sanctuary is to be the qiblat, meaning the center or focal point of the community of God's loyalists.
God's house is another name for the sanctuary that is dedicated to Him. Christians believe that their sanctuaries are God's houses, Jews believe that their sanctuaries are God's houses. We are no different and should think no different, our sanctuaries are God's houses also. We should consider some Christians sanctuaries to be God's houses and some Jewish sanctuaries to be His houses too, but some of them do not deserve to be viewed in this regard.
As it concerns the sanctuary that is dedicated to God, God's house, we are to congregrate in it during a certain 4 months. During this period and in God's house (wherever His houses may stand) there is to be activity (&umrah). There is to be '&arafaatun', meaning 'recognitions and approbations', there is to be 'qalaa'idu', meaning 'the bestowing of honors or ranks' there is to be 'sibaaqun aw siraa'un ilaal-khairaati' or 'racing and rushing towards beneficial things,' there are to be sacrifices of animals and the distribution of the meat to participants in this congregation and those in need, and overall there is to be rejoicing and honoring of God, an honoring that is even greater than how humanity has been known to honor its forefathers, whether that be singing songs or chants, rituals of honor or however humanity has honored its ancestors we are to incorporate our cultures' practices of honoring into this time of congregation to honor God.
This congregation is al-hajj or the pilgrimage that we as followers of the Koran, one God's messages, are to uphold. In our modern language it is more like a conference. It is only due to the fact that we consider the places where we are to have these conferences sacred, and that we go and travel to these places that it is a pilgrimage.
The pre-islamic Arab who lived within eyesight of the sanctuary in Mecca still made a pilgrimage to it when he visited it.
So did the Roman Catholic christian within eyeshot of Rome or the Christian within Eyeshot of the tomb where Jesus, God bless him, was put in when they thought that he was dead.When are those 4 sacred months? They are discernable, as the Koran says. We discern them through the best evidence we have of the history of the Arab calendar. The Arab calendar to our best knowledge has only been corrupted in that there was and is dissention about how the months are to be calculated, the order of months has not changed.
The Koran indirectly tells us how to calculate a month correctly when it says that the compensation for missing a day of fast is feeding 1 person and the compensation for missing 2 months' worth of fasting is the feeding of 60 people. 1 day=1 person 2 months = 60 persons therefore 2months = 60 days and 1 month=30 days.
The Hadeeths and the accounts of other early Arab figures cannot be trusted where they contradict each other and the Koran. But the traditional interpretations of Hadeeths cannot be trusted either.
Godbless,
Anwar -
drfazl
Peace,
You deffinately need to start to read Quran more. There are tons of laws in the Quran that God wants us to act upon and enforce.Heres one for beginners.
The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.
Do you mind those provisos allah has made mandatory before executing the 100 slashes a very few of which I beg to mention here suchas as follows
- Be a believer in Allah. Before that you have to follow the ayats 3321 to know who allah is.
- Having known Allah you heart shall tremble in fear and you fall to the ground weeping as required in the ayat 82
- You will not advance before allah and His prophet, when you say out your prejudice as is required by the ayat 491
- You will be cautious and god fearing following the ayat 820
- Then you shall know what the Last Day means before believing in the last day.
- A muslim shall not indulge in slandering for they fear Allah. "Woe to every slanderer, defamer"
- 24 4-9 must be fully borne in mind before punishment.
- If one swears by Allah he is the most despised by Allah as allah makes it clear in various ayats such as 6811, and 24 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and so on.
A party of such believers must alone shall watch the chastisement
Brother Commando_X, since I am a beginner in your opinion, I humbly request you to consider my plea. Is it not mandatory that the people with above nature, each having the full wisdom on all the 8 important considerations that they might bear in their mind, body and soul - and a party of such muslims alone shall watch the punishment? And again, are you not aware, that in the absence and witness of such party of muslims who are the believers in Allah and the last day and who apply quran wholly in their day to day life, none can execute the chastisement? Other 'muslims' shall not watch the punishment is also a provision in that ayat, if you have read the Book with earnestness!
Who are a party of such pious ones and who are to judge that they are! Don't you think it is not fitting for man to decide on who a muslim is except the All- Knowing? Or, kindly tell me who is the Best of judges? How are you going to choose a party of MUSLIMS?
regards.
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drfazl,
Agree with you largely ... on this thread wink
Progod also totally agree with your posts here
No islamic state because of human nature. If human has the power he will most certainly abuse it. If he does so in the name of the God it is even worse. I truely feel that islam is a personal matter. The day that "people will embrace the Gods religion in throngs" may get us close of such an utopy of a true islamic state, but I'd rather not take the chance...
Salaam to all, Elke
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Organization not State.
Organization, Mutual Patronage, Consultation, Discipline, Support, Internal Betterment, Programs that reach out for the betterment of others, Branches, Jurisdiction, Koran as Law and guider of policy, Representation, Self-sacrifice for the benefit of the Community that espouses the Organization of God's loyalists.
If you are thinking state, you are thinking wrong.
When has a church or an Internations organization needed a state.
Think Grand Organization.
Think what if the U.N. has citizens, official members who abided by its law. Citizens that transcended the bounderies of every country, but who had a common citizenship, a common bond and a common creed and the organization and self-sacrifice to make it a moving force in the world.Think Bigger than State
Godbless,
Anwar -
GOd blessings,
The grand union of God's loyalists is a theocracy and it is a government.
We are just not so concerned with territory. Rather with people, with members. It is members only. And once you enter you are bound to the laws that you agreed to follow. You accept the punishments to the laws that you agreed to follow. None of it is forced. All of it is voluntary. Just as the believers sacrifice and give for the sake of God. We give of ourselves, our property etc. for the sake of God. Our properties belong to each other, as our support belongs to each other & our resources belong to each other. But we understand that we should never give so much that our own needs are sacrificed. We are concerned with our defense. But modern states are limited whereas we are are boundless. Secondly, we are not concerned with modern states so much as long as they do not infringe upon our God-given rights, so long as they don't oppress us. We don't need to establish boundaries for our territories, and every person that belongs to this theocracy wants to, he or she is not born into it. We should do everything that a modern state does, minus the territory. We should arrange the policies and laws and beliefs that we are to live by. We should promote their acceptance amongst each other and propagandize the good of them, making them seem attractive and right.
We should strenghten communication between our different communities. We should establish plans of defense, plans for community outreach, plans for education of ourselves, plans for improvement, schemes of representation, when representation is needed and plans for community relations.The only thing is that even though we may flock together in certain places we are not concerned with gaining or controlling territory. The only territories we should be concerned with are protecting the places that we call home and providing new homes when necessary. As long as these places are protected we have no beef. We should also be concerned with self-sufficiency, as not depending on others and only depending on each other will lead to great successes in this world.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Dear brothers, can there be an islamic state wherein muslims alone have all the rights - according to the Book? Can there be anything like islamic law when the Book says there is no compulsion in islam? What is your say in this?
peace .
in an islamic state the koranic laws will be for everyone, muslim or non muslim . for example ,a non muslim adulterer, thief or murderer will be punished just like a muslim would be .
peace . -
peace .
in an islamic state the koranic laws will be for everyone, muslim or non muslim . for example ,a non muslim adulterer, thief or murderer will be punished just like a muslim would be .
peace .That is wrong, unjust and plain old compulsion. They follow a different religion and therefore different laws and should not be subject to such laws.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Hi,
What I see promoted here are exclusive groups of one type or another. This is against Islam. All the people around the Globe must be included.
However, the existing boundaries of countries must be respected, as well as the laws in those countries, the languages and monetary systems as well.What is being discussed is, in fact, a state within the state. I can not think of any territory in the world willing to accept that.
For all practical reason there must be some kind of territory, as a global center at least.
This center will also have to include a monetary and banking system, totally void of any interest, and imaginary values.
Now, where is such a territory readily available, and how should it be protected from evil powers.
It will, all in all, be a very delicate and complicated matter.Nobody should own any property; a home will therefore have to be a rented property on lease from the global center. Same is true for any other property.
The global center must be constituted as something like a UN, World Bank etc., everything combined into one unit, not with countries governments as members, but conforming groups within the various countries.
The global center must be governing the laws that all other followers around the World should uphold, unless they are in conflict with their local needs and laws.
Well, just some thoughts strewn around.
Best regds,
Ali Omar
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peace .
in an islamic state the koranic laws will be for everyone, muslim or non muslim . for example ,a non muslim adulterer, thief or murderer will be punished just like a muslim would be .
peace .That is wrong, unjust and plain old compulsion. They follow a different religion and therefore different laws and should not be subject to such laws.
Godbless,
Anwarpeace anwar .
this is not wrong . should people in ur country not be punished for their crimes ? or would criminal not b punished because he would give the excuse that " this(crime) is not considered a crime in my religion "?!!we are not compeling anyone to believe in God .
Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?
they will only be punished if they trangress the boundaries set by God in his book of law . God does not say that only the people of certain religion are to be punished . the laws in the koran are for all mankind .
peace .
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Complusion in 'Deen' includes compulsion in 'law'. Deen includes 'law.' It is a comprehensive term that includes 'philosophies, belief systems, creeds, religions, orders, policies and laws.'
Forgive my use of the term Koranist but it fits my purposes here. Here it means 'one who adheres to the Koran.'
In a Koranist society where there are people who are non-Koranists among them there are 4 cases that are listed by number
- A Koranist commits a crime against a Koranist
2.A non-Koranist commits a crime against a Koranist
3.A Koranist commits a crime asgainst a non-koranist
4.A non-koranist commits a crime against a non-koranist
Solutions according to case numbers are as follows
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Koranic policy is used to resolve the issue
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Koranic policy that speaks about the enemies of koranists is to be used to resolove the issue.
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Koranic policy that speaks about koranists and thier relations with non-koranists is to be used to resolve the issue.
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The non-koranists are left to resolve the issue between themselves as they see fit; unless they ask for arbitration from koranists. In which case koranic policy about peace-making/arbritration is to be used to resolve the issue.
It violates the Koranic policy of 'laa ikraaha feedeeni' to impose Koranic policy onto those who do not choose it.
Godbless,
Anwar