Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen

hawk99

In 4/15-4/16 the Quran speaks of "public" unacceptable behavior
which most of us would agree, I don't want to see a man and woman
being intimate in public and definitely don't want to see two men
being intimate in public. None can "witness" acts behind closed doors hmm

police

A_Submitter

In 4/15-4/16 the Quran speaks of "public" unacceptable behavior
which most of us would agree, I don't want to see a man and woman
being intimate in public and definitely don't want to see two men
being intimate in public. None can "witness" acts behind closed doors hmm

police

Salam,

Nope, it doesn't say public. Where in these verses does it say public?

No brother, God is commanding the believers what to do with the homosexuals. "the two men who commit it"(it=lewdness)=homosexuals.

If one cannot be witness behind closed doors for homosexual acts, it means also that we can't be witness to anyone who commits adultery unless they do it in public????

This can't be right because if we look at what is said about the adulterers we see that if there weren't 4 witnesses then they have to swear oaths; which means it doesn't matter where these things are committed....public or private.

In the case of homosexuals, God hasn't told us anything about swearing oaths against them, but we do need 4 witnesses. Lastly, the
"four witnesses" is in verse 415 in which God commands us against homosexual women. I don't know if you need 4 witnesses for the homosexual men.

Salam

hawk99

Nope, it doesn't say public. Where in these verses does it say public?

pub?lic

adjective

antonyms private

done, perceived, or existing in open view.

How would one know the two were guilty of lewdness? hmm

police

imrankhawaja

sex outside the marriage bound is not allowed simple is that...

on other hand how can you do marriage with somebody who is of same sex... nope

if not then if two boys do jigi jigi , what catagory is it... hmm

and what if you do sex with animals its also not written in quran

moreover if something is not in black and white it does not mean God allowed it..

homo or hetro are not allowed apart from the bound of marriage...

imrankhawaja

some key verses to ponder

780 And Lot, when he said to his people "Do you commit lewdness to an extend that none in the worlds had surpassed you?"
781 "You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people".

26165 "Are you attracted to the males of the worlds?"
26166 "You leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!"

peace
may Allah guide us to the right path

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

sex outside the marriage bound is not allowed simple is that...

on other hand how can you do marriage with somebody who is of same sex... nope

if not then if two boys do jigi jigi , what catagory is it... hmm

and what if you do sex with animals its also not written in quran

moreover if something is not in black and white it does not mean God allowed it..

homo or hetro are not allowed apart from the bound of marriage...

Remember that homosexuality is an attraction to the same sex. Homosexual acts are different from an attraction. A man that marries a woman and never undertakes a homosexual act in his life is still a homosexual if attracted to other men.

And what is marriage? A license? A contract? Were there not marriages before writing? It could be argued that the sexual act is marriage. On the other hand, if sexual acts are only permissible inside marriage, then surely those that deter homosexuals from marriage are not preventing lewdness, but causing it. Those that claim that homosexuals are not welcome in Islam deter others from the deen. The "morality police" need to look to themselves before attempting to better others.

Certainly, approaching others out of lust is not okay--and this is without regard to a person's attraction(s).

Sex with animals is a straw man argument, the discussion is about about homosexuality and homosexual acts. Please start another thread if you seriously want to talk about bestiality.

422 And do not marry who your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done. It is a lewdness, and an abhorrence, and an evil path.

423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. GOD is Forgiving, Merciful.

424 And the emancipated from the women-except those committed to by your oath-is God's decree over you. And it is permitted for you to seek beyond this category that you employ your wealth, to be emancipated, not for illicit sex. So, for those of them you find pleasing, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation; and there is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.

So then, are homosexual acts beyond this category, or are they included somewhere? ) If they are included, please show where.

I'd also like to point out that many of the translations for "wife" are more properly translated as "pair."

Indeed 5149 And of everything We created a pair, perhaps you may remember.

So, what is the pair for a homosexual? Are they destined to be lonely? A homosexual can no more make themselves attracted to the opposite gender than a heterosexual can make themselves attracted to the same gender. Very strange that all known species capable of sexual reproduction exhibit homosexuality--how peculiar that something that is so prevalent and normal would be unnatural in humans!

The Almighty is not ashamed to Guide us; please point out the word or words that mean homosexual or homosexual act...be sure to cross reference those words elsewhere so that they don't mean "adultery" in one place and "homosexual acts" in another.

If it isn't prohibited, what is its status?

Please very carefully consider before saying that something is not allowed.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

My comments in red.

some key verses to ponder

780 And Lot, when he said to his people "Do you commit lewdness to an extend that none in the worlds had surpassed you?"

It is a poor translation that leads to poor understanding. Sabaqakum does not mean surpassed. http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=7&verse=80

Please consider the following translations

FM 780 And Lot, he said to his people "Do you commit immorality such as none of those of the worlds had done before?"

Sahih International And Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds?

Pickthall And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?

Yusuf Ali We also (sent) Lut He said to his people "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?

Shakir And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you?

Muhammad Sarwar Lot told his people, "Why do you commit such indecent acts that have never been committed by anyone before?

Mohsin Khan And (remember) Lout (Lot), when he said to his people "Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns)?

Arberry And Lot, when he said to his people, 'What, do you commit such indecency as never any being in all the world committed before you?

Have you considered that existing physical evidence show that homosexual acts in society predate the people of Lot by over a thousand years, and for thousands of years before that in smaller groups? It shoots a hole in the argument that the people of Lot were chastised for homosexual acts.

781 "You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people".

So then, is it okay to approach women with desire? 781 mentions lust, and seems to be exacerbated by the fact that the lust is to other men.

26165 "Are you attracted to the males of the worlds?"
26166 "You leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!"

Again, the above translations are skewed. Atatna does not mean attracted. http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=26&verse=165

FM 26165 "Do you approach the males of the worlds?"

Sahih International Do you approach males among the worlds

Pickthall What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males,

Yusuf Ali "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,

Shakir What! do you come to the males from among the creatures

Muhammad Sarwar Do you, in the world, want to have carnal relations with males

Mohsin Khan "Go you in unto the males of the 'Alamin (mankind),

Arberry What, do you come to male beings,

So, is it okay to approach other humans in lust? Is it okay to leave a spouse to engage in sexual acts with another? It wouldn't matter if the men were pursuing women or men--it just so happened that they preferred men. It was the lustful approach to others, and perhaps adultery that is the real issue.

peace
may Allah guide us to the right path

There is also the teeny tiny problem of the women and children among the people of Lot being destroyed. They were innocent of homosexual acts. Could it be that the men were destroyed for the same reason as the women and children?

1715 Whoever is guided is guided for himself, and whoever is misguided is for his own loss. And no bearer may carry the burden of another; and We were not to punish until We send a messenger.

2929 "You approach the males, and you sever the way, and you bring all vice into your place." But the only response from his people was to say "Bring us the retribution of GOD, if you are being truthful!"

Maybe it was the response of the people that lead to their destruction.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Jafar

There is also the teeny tiny problem of the women and children among the people of Lot being destroyed. They were innocent of homosexual acts. Could it be that the men were destroyed for the same reason as the women and children?

What happened might be a big meteorite impact....
The time and place for such event has been designated, imprinted on the trajectory of the Meteorite..
The impact of the event also affects 3 other neighboring Canaanite cities on the plain (Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboim)

If the legend is true, then 'a certain party' (named as 'angels&#039 already know about the incoming meteorite and try to warn Lot and his family.

The survivor (Canaanites, Israelites etc) then trying to make a 'causal' relationship of such destructive event...
And they linked up the Homosexuality habits of (only one) of the impacted city of Sodom as probable cause on why "their God sent down destruction from the heaven".

Man_of_Faith

The sectarian interpretation of Quran says the community did commit highway robbery and other things. Perhaps they sex tortured their victims. Who knows?

Jafar

The sectarian interpretation of Quran says the community did commit highway robbery and other things. Perhaps they sex tortured their victims. Who knows?

Based on the description, it could be....
Robbery and rape of foreigner, tourist and wayfarer..

In such case, whether they're homo or hetero doesn't really matter...

Man_of_Faith

Based on the description, it could be....
Robbery and rape of foreigner, tourist and wayfarer..

In such case, whether they're homo or hetero doesn't really matter...

One would expect highway robbery to be something to be punished for since it affects someone else. Homosexual sex is usually between people who mutually agree on the act and does thus not damage anyone physically unwilling.

However in the case of Lut they seem to have raped the foreigners which is the actual crime in that case. They sought out Lut's guests.

Be well
Amenuel

hawk99

The history behind prophet Lot's people is spoken of in Quran Al-Kareem
in such concise terms that understanding the verses requires an expansive
view. The Quran states that basically the people of Lot were a criminal
society and culture and were doing things like rape of men which was
never practiced as a societal norm before them.

29/29 (interesting verse and chapter no.)
What! you approach males and commit robbery on the highway,
and you commit evil deeds in your assemblies? But nothing was the
answer of his people except that they said Bring on us Allah's punishment,
if you are one of the truthful.

That whole culture had to go, be destroyed the people of Lot were irredeemable.

peace

Layth

Salam,

I have skimmed through these posts and find it ridiculous that people would think to promote "fahsha" while serving God alone!

You cannot have sex outside wedlock (consentiual or not) and wedlock can only be between a man a woman.

Pleas people stop spreading Satanic behavior falsely under the guise of Islam...

728 And if they commit immorality, they say "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say "God does not order immorality! Do you say about God what you do not know?"

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

Salam,

I have skimmed through these posts and find it ridiculous that people would think to promote "fahsha" while serving God alone!

You cannot have sex outside wedlock (consentiual or not) and wedlock can only be between a man a woman.

Pleas people stop spreading Satanic behavior falsely under the guise of Islam...

728 And if they commit immorality, they say "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say "God does not order immorality! Do you say about God what you do not know?"

How, exactly, does quoting the Qur'an in context promote immorality? hmm Please be specific about "spreading Satanic behavior." PM if you like.

2141 That is a nation that has passed away; to them is what they have earned, and to you is what you have earned; and you will not be asked regarding what they did.

37 He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are legislative verses-they are the Mother of the Book-and others which are comparable. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they follow that of it which is comparable, seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except GOD, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except those who possess intelligence.

3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

It isn't possible to "catch homosexuality" and it isn't something that spreads. While you no doubt have reasons for feeling the way that you do, why not post your reasoning and evidences? ISA truth will prevail. When discussed in a serious manner, human relations are a reasonable topic.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Aladin_from_Azra_tribe

Salam,

I have skimmed through these posts and find it ridiculous that people would think to promote "fahsha" while serving God alone!

You cannot have sex outside wedlock (consentiual or not) and wedlock can only be between a man a woman.

Pleas people stop spreading Satanic behavior falsely under the guise of Islam...

728 And if they commit immorality, they say "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say "God does not order immorality! Do you say about God what you do not know?"

peace AS,

Does a person who fears God claim something is forbidden when it is not?

A meet-up of LGBTQI people is not forbidden, and simply being LGBTQI is not a crime as per Quran, e.g.
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/islam-homosexuality.htm

Just incase you said that my words are ridiculous. If "a crime" is dhulm, then being a weirdo like that is a crime for sure.
So, you're (as forum admins) supporting these weirdoes, but that's your case. I can just warn whenever I have some knowledge and wisdom to do so, and I can hope that you'll change and ask for forgiveness.
Btw, I won't read Wakas' informations about "misconceptions about islam", because we should know what is Islam to talk about this topic.

Allah's bless and selam.

Jafar

However in the case of Lut they seem to have raped the foreigners which is the actual crime in that case. They sought out Lut's guests.

Like I said, raping anyone is a vice, whether it's hetero or homo doesn't matter...
And that includes 'fellow animal'....

We don't know what truly happened in Sodom, the information is incomplete..

But in any case, Homosexuality appears on average between 3 to 5% of total human population... that's the current statistics..
Heterosexuality is the majority between, 97 to 95% of total human population..

It is very very rare, infact it never happened to known history to find a population where homosexuality is the majority.. Due to the disadvantageous of such trait.. biologically.. Even with today technology of artificial insemination, the majority of children born from homosexual parent are born heterosexual...

Thus, if it's true that the majority of Sodom population are "homosexual" it's a strange and very very rare occurrence...

I truly believe that homo or heterosexual is given / born condition...
No homosexual can be 'converted' / 'turned' into heterosexual..
The 'conservative' has tried hard to disprove the above case, through various methods, therapy and even hypnotism.. as of now no strong evidence that it works..

It works vice versa, no heterosexual can be 'converted' / 'turned' into homosexual...
I agree as I myself a heterosexual, and I don't believe that I can go to a treatment or even hypnotized to become homosexual..

Unless it can be proven that homo or hetero sexual is NOT a given condition... (through proven method that homo can be turned hetero or hetero to homo) any criminalisation of such trait is NOT valid.

Man_of_Faith