Understanding the word 'kaba'
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God's blessing on you,
The meanings of Ka'bun listed in Wehr's dictionary (14) are the following
Knot, knob, node (of cane); joint, articulation, ankles, anklebone; heel (of foot or shoe) ferule; die; cube; high rank, fame, glory, honor.
Everything that the male of the form fa'lun (being the representation of the Cl. Arabic form in question, universally applied to all roots) can mean, so can the female (fa'latun or modernly and colloquially fa'lah), with the added meaning of emphasis that the feminization of the word gives; where it is clear that there could be intensification. The meaning that the dictionary gives for Ka'bah, as with Ka'bun, includes 'cube.' So then why cannot Ka'bah also share the meanings of high rank, glory and honor, taking into account the possible intensification it can mean? This would render it truly high rank, true/great glory and true/great honor. The author proposes that these meanings are the meanings that are meant in the Koran by Ka'bah. This word happens to also mean a cubic structure. But who's to say that this cubic structure is the famous one in the Hijaz area of Arabia, in a city popularly known as Mecca/Makkah? Why not some other cubic structure in another area of Arabia, or the world for that matter? The Koran doesn't say anything about any cubic structure being in any Arabia or in any city called Mecca/Makkah.
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Peace 'progod' and thanks for the info.
The meanings of Ka'bun listed in Wehr's dictionary (14) are the following
Knot, knob, node (of cane); joint, articulation, ankles, anklebone; heel (of foot or shoe) ferule; die; cube; high rank, fame, glory, honor.
I believe the above similarity of words in bold seems quite relevant to what the verses (595-5103) are talking about. i.e. livestock, food, hunting. The underlined words can be quite supportive to the bold ones, when it comes to judging for hunting a livestock between an adult and a calf per say.
The meaning that the dictionary gives for Ka'bah, as with Ka'bun, includes 'cube.' So then why cannot Ka'bah also share the meanings of high rank, glory and honor, taking into account the possible intensification it can mean? This would render it truly high rank, true/great glory and true/great honor. The author proposes that these meanings are the meanings that are meant in the Koran by Ka'bah. This word happens to also mean a cubic structure. But who's to say that this cubic structure is the famous one in the Hijaz area of Arabia, in a city popularly known as Mecca/Makkah? Why not some other cubic structure in another area of Arabia, or the world for that matter?
Simply because a 'cube', a 'building', a 'stone structure' and all the drama that goes with and around it, cannot possibly be revered to rank GOD. Those are sheer idolworshipping acts and methods performed by the pagans even before "Islam" (as in Arabic Religion) came into existance.
The Koran doesn't say anything about any cubic structure being in any Arabia or in any city called Mecca/Makkah.
That's one point to consider and the other as mentioned in my previous long post.
Btw, do you know the details of the "cube structure" both past and present and what goes in and around it?
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God's blessings,
The above and the following was from my article on Pilgrimage that can be found on www.progod.org under the link 'Pilgrimage.'
"From reading the Koran we have no reason to believe that we should even be visiting the city of Mecca, Arabia other than in visiting some holy sanctuary, being a house of God; if we can travel that distance. Otherwise the Koran does not speak of any Mecca/Makkah in regard to any pilgrimage. Nor has the Cl. Arabic meaning of Makkah (1, Notes) even been looked at as what the Koran may really mean when it uses this word. With the above in mind, the author proposes that 594's 'hadyan baalighul-ka'bati' means " A present that is truly honorable." (15)
It is also proposed here that 597's 'Ja'alallaahul-ka'bata albaital-haraama qiyaaman linaasi washah-ral haraama wal-hadya wal-qalaa'ida' means 'God has put in true honor and glory the holy houses, as upstanding things for the benefit of people. As well as the holy months with directions, including the awarding of people with marks of honor." (16)"Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace brothers Anwar and Danish,
There are stone cubes with the height slightly larger than the other dimensions like the one is so-called Maka in many places in Arabia. There is no "pre-quranic" evidence that such shrines built by pagans were called Kaaba(t). Moreover, despite the importance of such shrines, the alleged name "Kaaba(t)" is NEVER mentioned in any "pre-quranic" Arab inscriptions. Those shrines often have the name "Dhu Al-Shaara" inscripted. They are simply the representation of the pagan Nabataean idol Dhu Al-Shaara.
In fact, a Greek manuscript written in the fourth century AD by Epiphanius, the bishop of Salamis, Cyprus describes the Nabataean cult and their celebration of the festival of the birth of Dhu Al-Shaara (Dusares in Greek). It is interesting that the birth celebrations culminated with bringing forth from beneath the earth the image of the male infant idol, which was carried seven times around the inner sanctuary of the pagan temple.
By renaming Dhu Al-Shaara to Kaaba, the pagans have managed to continue the practice of spinning seven times around Dhu Al-Shaara to this day under the guise of following the great reading.
The traditions quoted in some classical Arabic Lexicons convey that people differed about the meaning of "ka3b" (for example in 56) and whether it means ankle or heel. For example, there are traditions attributed to Jaber Ibn Ahmed Ibn Yehya, Ibn Al-Aaraby, Aby Omar, and Ibn Ala'a that can only be used to demonstrate that at their time, a few hundred years after the great reading was revealed, there was still confusion about the meaning of "ka3b"/"ka3ba(t)".
Also, another indication that the word "ka3b/ka3ba(t)" definitely didn't mean the cube shrine that is presently named Ka3bat is that there were many Jews by the name Ka3b and even pious ones such as the alleged Ka3b Al-A7bar. The Jews wouldn't name their sons after a shrine that they clearly consider pagan, would they?
In classical Arabic when we say "ak3ab al-rajul" it means that the man walked faster (Of course people walk on their heels NOT their ankles). In fact, despite all the corruptions of sectarians, the term "ka3b" is still used even today in Arabic to describe the heel/base of the shoe. In rural areas of Northern Arabia, the Arab tribes still use the expression "ka3b al-wadi" to denote the bottom/base of the valley. Hence, the meaning of "base" is definitely attested to and should be considered during translation, especially in light of the context of 597. Hence, 597 should be translated as follows
- The God has made the base the restriction house...
When we look at 597 and other signs that define the purpose of "al-bayt al-haram" such as 2125 then we will see that "base" fits the meaning perfectly.
How is a cube (which is not even a real cube) a place of assembly and safety for people?
On the other hand, the base is a place of assembly where people can gather in safety.
This is a natural non-forced meaning like the house of representatives is the base of legislation where they assemble safely to make laws or the White House is the base of executive power.
I hope this helps,
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
While I am with you in most part, I'm still trying to grasp the following
- The God has made the base the restriction house...
When we look at 597 and other signs that define the purpose of "al-bayt al-haram" such as 2125 then we will see that "base" fits the meaning perfectly.
How is a cube (which is not even a real cube) a place of assembly and safety for people?
On the other hand, the base is a place of assembly where people can gather in safety.
This is a natural non-forced meaning like the house of representatives is the base of legislation where they assemble safely to make laws or the White House is the base of executive power.
Again, much of the verses related to 595 and 597 where kaba is mentioned, talks about hunting and its conservation. The "base/heel/ankle/anklebone", all seem to carry the word 'kaba' to reflect hunting and conserving of animals during specific months. Perhaps the base/ankle suggests animal's adulthood, in which one must not hunt baby or weak animals and simply recognize them by their bases or ankles. How is this related to become a base for assembly of people to gather in safety? I don't see the verses (595-5103) in question talking about human danger so that they may take refuge or assemble in a place for the basis of safety or other reasons. Please elaborate and/or correct me if I am wrong in my assertions.
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Salam,
Again, much of the verses related to 595 and 597 where kaba is mentioned, talks about hunting and its conservation.
I agree with Danish. Two years ago when I went to Mecca to perform my Umrah ritual, I read this verse, (594) inside a bus during my Ihram.
O you who believe, God will test you with some of the game for hunting coming within reach of your hands and your spears, so that God will know who reveres Him when unseen. Whoever aggresses after this, then he will have a painful retribution.
Then I look the surrounding area where I did not find any wildlife. That time, my understanding is God will test us with a lot of wildlife within our reach during the Ihram because they translate the restricted month as Ihram in verse 595.
Only now I understand that this verse is talking about wildlife conservation because when I was in collage in Utah, I saw a lot of deer during the no hunting seasoned (restricted month). I even almost accidentally kill it during my crossbow practice.
Regards
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Peace brothers Danish, gclandcp, all,
Again, much of the verses related to 595 and 597 where kaba is mentioned, talks about hunting and its conservation.
You are corect as far as 594-96. Starting in 597 the subject changes to "al-bayt al-haram". 597 clearly says that "al-ka3ba(t)" IS "al-bayt al-haram". How can the ankles of animals be "al-bayt al-haram"? In light of the clear description of the purpose of "al-bayt" in 2125, the ankles of animals being "al-bayt al-haram" doesn't make any sense.
The "base/heel/ankle/anklebone", all seem to carry the word 'kaba' to reflect hunting and conserving of animals during specific months. Perhaps the base/ankle suggests animal's adulthood, in which one must not hunt baby or weak animals and simply recognize them by their bases or ankles.
No farmer or hunter I know examines and measures the ankles of animals to determine when they reached adulthood. I am sure that as a hunter, gclandcp can kindly confirm this. Thus, the hypothesis that ankles are used to determine an animal's adulthood is not grounded in reality. If you disagree, then please provide any reference to any people determining animal adulthood based on their ankles.
How is this related to become a base for assembly of people to gather in safety? I don't see the verses (595-5103) in question talking about human danger so that they may take refuge or assemble in a place for the basis of safety or other reasons. Please elaborate and/or correct me if I am wrong in my assertions.
Please read 2125 where the purpose of "al-bayt" is given as a place of assembly and safety. That purpose hasn't changed in 595 and 597.
In many places in the great reading we are told about feeding the poor as recompense for various things such as broken oaths, etc. In all those instances, the fulfillment of the recompense is something between the person and The God. Hence, if I break my oath and don't abstain for three days or feed 10 poor people as required in 589, there is no one to judge me other than The God and no courts or other humans are involved.
The situation is 595 is different. In 595 by violating the hunting restriction, a hunter has committed a civil offense and hence there is a human judge presiding over the case and the human judge determines the value of the recompense. In 595 we are told that the human judge can decide based on the situation to enforce one of the following
- A fine in the form of a gift reaching "al-ka3bat" which we know from 597 is "al-bayt al-haram".
- Feeding of the poor.
- Or, as a last resort, abstaining.
So here this is not a matter left to one's good conscience but the judge must make sure that the gift giving, feeding of the poor, or abstaining actually took place. Hence, the offender cannot say OK, I will give a gift and then go buy gift certificates for himself from Saks Fifth Avenue. The gift has to reach the restriction house/the base and help fulfill its purpose as laid out in 2125.
I hope this helps in clarifying things.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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peace be upon you brother Ayman, All,
I just wanted to say excellent observation with the following
The situation is 595 is different. In 595 by violating the hunting restriction, a hunter has committed a civil offense and hence there is a human judge presiding over the case and the human judge determines the value of the recompense.
I would like to bolster such an idea with my thoughts on the root of kabba (K3B)
K3B essentially means swelling/projection/protuberance, anything elevated, thus 'the base' may be a term of reference for the governing/judicial system, it could be akin to a supreme court, thus definitely making it a projection above others, an elevated position/rank, not to mention its other connotation of ankle/heel suggesting that the rest of the body/system stands upon this structure.
On a side note, I am only in my early studies of such governing concepts (and I take ages to study stuff) but it is my opinion, that the example raised by Abraham was that of a governing/community structure. This is reinforced time and time again in the reading / al quran, and it is this that we are asked to emulate. Many understandings of terms/concepts found in the reading flow from such a structure, which I'm sure many have noticed.
Wakas
Abraham was a nation/community, obedient/devoted to The God, a monotheist/unifier, and he was not of those who set-up partners.
The story of Abraham can be found here 2124-129, 2130-132, 2135, 2136, 2140, 2258, 2260, 365, 367-68, 384, 395, 397, 454-55, 4125, 4163, 674-83, 6161, 970, 9114, 1169-76, 126, 1238, 1435, 1551-56, 16120, 16123, 1941-49, 1958, 2151-73, 2226, 2243, 2278, 2669, 2916, 2925, 2931, 337, 3783-109, 3845, 4213, 4326, 5124-34, 5337, 5726, 604-5, 8719
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God's blessings,
I apologize. In my former post I thought I put everything that needed to be put. So the course of this conversation confused me. On second glance I didn't put everything that I meant to post. SO here it goes again. Maybe this will clear some issues up (It will definitely clear up the name Ka'b)
Ka'bun is the masculine form of the word ka'batun, better known as ka'bah. To understand the feminine form we have to understand a few things about Cl. Arabic. Firstly, that the feminine form of the word ka'bun (12) carries the same meanings as the masculine form. In the case where it carries distinct meanings it is because it has been feminized to differentiate a very similar concept from some already established concept associated with the masculine form of the word. In addition to that, if you make the masculine form of a word feminine it gives strength to this word. For instance, 'Khaleefatun' is stronger than 'khaleefun', 'abbatee' stronger than 'abbee', and 'aarifatun,' stronger than 'aarifun.' (13)
The meanings of Ka'bun listed in Wehr's dictionary (14) are the following
Knot, knob, node (of cane); joint, articulation, ankles, anklebone; heel (of foot or shoe) ferule; die; cube; high rank, fame, glory, honor.
Everything that the male of the form fa'lun (being the representation of the Cl. Arabic form in question, universally applied to all roots) can mean, so can the female (fa'latun or modernly and colloquially fa'lah), with the added meaning of emphasis that the feminization of the word gives; where it is clear that there could be intensification. The meaning that the dictionary gives for Ka'bah, as with Ka'bun, includes 'cube.' So then why cannot Ka'bah also share the meanings of high rank, glory and honor, taking into account the possible intensification it can mean? This would render it truly high rank, true/great glory and true/great honor. The author proposes that these meanings are the meanings that are meant in the Koran by Ka'bah. This word happens to also mean a cubic structure. But who's to say that this cubic structure is the famous one in the Hijaz area of Arabia, in a city popularly known as Mecca/Makkah? Why not some other cubic structure in another area of Arabia, or the world for that matter? The Koran doesn't say anything about any cubic structure being in any Arabia or in any city called Mecca/Makkah.
From reading the Koran we have no reason to believe that we should even be visiting the city of Mecca, Arabia other than in visiting some holy sanctuary, being a house of God if we can travel that distance. Otherwise the Koran does not speak of any Mecca/Makkah in regard to any pilgrimage. Nor has the Cl. Arabic meaning of Makkah (1, Notes) even been looked at as what the Koran may really mean when it uses this word. With the above in mind, the author proposes that 594's 'hadyan baalighul-ka'bati' means " A present that is truly honorable." (15)
It is also proposed here that 597's 'Ja'alallaahul-ka'bata albaital-haraama qiyaaman linaasi washah-ral haraama wal-hadya wal-qalaa'ida' means 'God has put in true honor and glory the holy houses, as upstanding things for the benefit of people. As well as the holy months with directions, including the awarding of people with marks of honor." (16)
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace be upon you,
I agree with the understanding that Ayman brought forth, makes perfect sense.
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Peace brothers Wakas, Anwar, all,
I think that both base and high rank (as brother Anwar pointed out) work in the context.
On a side note, I am only in my early studies of such governing concepts (and I take ages to study stuff) but it is my opinion, that the example raised by Abraham was that of a governing/community structure. This is reinforced time and time again in the reading / al quran, and it is this that we are asked to emulate. Many understandings of terms/concepts found in the reading flow from such a structure, which I'm sure many have noticed.
I agree with you and I think that the implication is that in your study you would have to reexamine the entire concept of "7ajj"/debate as a civil concept and not a religious (clergy-based) concept.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace be upon you Ayman and Wakas,
I agree with you and I think that the implication is that in your study you would have to reexamine the entire concept of "7ajj"/debate as a civil concept and not a religious (clergy-based) concept.
It is because "religion" and "civility" have been made seperate, just like psychology , health, science, etc have all been fragmented and made to appear different , that we have the troubles understanding this sysem of order(deen). Instead of ORDERED, everything seems unordered. We have seperated what the God commanded to be joined.
SPiritual cultivation joins all of those subjects into one.
I look foward to hearing more of your position Wakas as you continue studying.
Debate(hajj) keeps people accoountable, we should see more of it in governing systems, not excluding the common man from the debate.
