Marrying a Traditionalist Is As Same as Marrying a Polytheist

Amra94

Satan acknowledges that too. But think about how Jesus was sent to Jews despite the fact that they never said God didn't exist. They actually went overboard with their religion to please him. That's what makes the general assumption challenging.

Technically, not all of what the atheists say can be considered against the Book.

They question the concept of God living in the "heaven". I remember once atheist Sheikh Richard Dawkins (PBUH) saying that the universe is so complicated in structure that God has to be someone more complex than what the religions say about him. He is actually right. Quran usually preaches panatheism. God has tried to give us a simple description, but due to our limited knowledge on logic and physics, it is hard for us to understand it.
They are made confused by the idea that God is all loving. They question if that is the case then why there is so much sorrow in this world. From Quran, we know that to gain God's love we have to love and maintain his creations. No priests will ever tell you that.
Christian and Muslim priests these days are going all radical in their sermons. I was told that even now in some Sunday sermons, the christian ones have been instigating the people against Muslims, while emphasizing the importance of supporting Israel blindly. That will break anyone's trust. Interestingly, most ex muslims seem to leave Islam because of traumatic religious experiences.

But typically, their questions are the same ones which brought us to Quran alone. Most people are scared to think differently or just don't have the access to the info required to understand how the major religions were corrupted by priests. I am sure God can see that. He is fair.

Does it matter if some of what they say isn't against the book. They say they will only believe in God if they have evidence He exists, they will only believe in what they can see. They are full of themselves. Not Muslim.

reel

excellent points reel

ok i want to ask a question from you its kinds personal for me because i take advices from all people its my duty to put this on test .. u r the first one..

if a creation love God .. and using this word "LOVER of GOD"
is it mean by saying this he claimed to b the one who have sexually intercourse with God ?

i shocked i used this word once and somebody told me lover of God mean the one who sex with God (astagfar)

just ur opinion i need and forum member can give their opinions too...

Oh no, two types of love have nothing to do with sex. One is divine love and the other one is platonic. Divine love is connected to loving and serving God and getting their results. But no culture has one definition for it. That's the reason why I had trouble understanding it in my 11th grade humanities class. The concept is much older than the Arabic Quran though.

Does it matter if some of what they say isn't against the book.

Of course it matters and you will always see the signs (both positive and negative) of this.

They say they will only believe in God if they have evidence He exists, they will only believe in what they can see. They are full of themselves. Not Muslim.

There are many different kinds of atheists though. One group is forced to pay attention to worldly matters like employment. They are so burdened that they can't get the time to reflect on God's existence. But they seem to be honest in their intentions towards others. They pretty much do what is in the Quran. Lets call them progressive atheists. The orthodox ones follow "hadiths" and they are usually the ones full of themselves.

Amra94

One group is forced to pay attention to worldly matters like employment. They are so burdened that they can't get the time to reflect on God's existence.

Quran doesn't say that's a valid excuse at all

imrankhawaja

Oh no, two types of love have nothing to do with sex. One is divine love and the other one is platonic. Divine love is connected to loving and serving God and getting their results.

aww you are such a lovely creature of God sister reel ..

God bless you..

reel

Quran doesn't say that's a valid excuse at all

Things will be clear to you.

aww you are such a lovely creature of God sister reel ..

God bless you..

Thanks bro.
God bless you too. )

HP_TECH

Sister Reel,

I have always been fond of you and your judgement, but this time I think you ought to hear out sister Amra's words.

I think she did well by citing all the relevant verses in support of all her statements.

I support and endorse her statements and way of reasoning I find particularly keen and objective.

Most of us would like to excuse many of the people around us who we know in our hearts are not believers and have not submitted.

There is really no in between, sister Amra is accurate.

One thing that I also want to highlight is definitions according to Quran and according to our modern understanding.

Atheists A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

There are many kinds of ka fa ra.
Atheists are among the groups, including hypocrites.

If you deny or reject anything concerning Allah's deen and Truth meaning His existence, The Day of Judgement, His Angels, His Messengers, His Books you are simply a kaf fa ra.

Just like there are different degrees or levels to a believer so for the ka fa ra

There are those who like the definition describes do not believe in the existence of God and less the Hereafter, His Angels, Messengers and Books and they follow assumptions and their own desires not REASON.

The Quran mentions those who think that they only live and die and time is the only thing responsible for their death 4523-24

Have you seen (he) who takes (as) his god his desire and Allah lets him go astray knowingly, and upon his hearing and his heart and puts over his vision a veil? Then who will guide him after Allah? Then will not you receive admonition?
And they say, "Not it (is) but our life (of) the world, we die and we live, and not destroys us except the time." And not for them of that any knowledge; not, they (do) but guess.

Not being certain about the Hereafter is also an association (shirk) 1835-38, 42
And he entered his garden while he (was) unjust to himself. He said, "Not I think that will perish this ever.
And not I think the Hour will occur. And if I am bought back to my Lord, I will surely find better than this (as) a return."
Said to him his companion while he was talking to him, "Do you disbelieve in created you from dust then from a minute quantity of then fashioned you (into) a man?
But as for me, He (is) Allah, my Lord, and not I associate with my Lord anyone.
...And were surrounded his fruits, so he began twisting his hands over what he (had) spent on it, while it (had) collapsed on its trellises, and he said, "Oh! I wish I had not associated with my Lord anyone."
And not was for him a group (to) help him other than Allah, and not was (he) supported.

Also I am always long winded and I do not want to reiterate what I have already stated in another thread.

I believe this particular disagreement we are having has been long settled in this thread
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607143.msg383327#msg383327

imrankhawaja

the one who dnt believe in God words is also kaffir(athiest)

example the one who dnt believe in flat earth=kafir becoz quran say its flat

i me and lot of kaffirs here in this .living world

99.99999 % muslims (traditional and non traditional)
99.99999 % jews christians hindus buddists all of them

probably 0.000001 percent of beleivers left with us in the planet .. bravo who really beleive from their heart that earth is flat..

good_logic

Peace All.

I see. People still judge others when GOD clearly said

22 17 ? Those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Converts ( to any religion), the Christians, the Zoroastrians ( and any name you wish to give to man s religion) and the idol worshippers ( and the Muslims, Hindus, the thousands of religious sects, the disbelievers, the Atheists, etc?) GOD is the one who will judge among them on the day of Resurrection. GOD witnesses all things.?

Fine, some in are my words( in brackets), but surely the rest is quite clear!!! GOD is the one who will judge.
And there lies the problem!!! We want to play "Wakeels" -guardians/take responsibility- for others?

"Wa man yatazakka Fainnama Yatazakka Linafsihi". You stand alone before GOD, cleanse yourself and take care for only yourself. Let all the "kafirs" do the same.
GOD wants you to warn/remind/advise/converse/exchange views/help/give and take...others ,not judge them!!!! Let them make their own decision and understand GOD s message their way,not yours!!!!
GOD gives every one the chance to change until their last day,who are we to cut that chance for them and judge them prematurely?
GOD bless you all.
Peace

huruf

Peace All.

I see. People still judge others when GOD clearly said

22 17 ? Those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Converts ( to any religion), the Christians, the Zoroastrians ( and any name you wish to give to man s religion) and the idol worshippers ( and the Muslims, Hindus, the thousands of religious sects, the disbelievers, the Atheists, etc?) GOD is the one who will judge among them on the day of Resurrection. GOD witnesses all things.?

Fine, some in are my words( in brackets), but surely the rest is quite clear!!! GOD is the one who will judge.
And there lies the problem!!! We want to play "Wakeels" -guardians/take responsibility- for others?

"Wa man yatazakka Fainnama Yatazakka Linafsihi". You stand alone before GOD, cleanse yourself and take care for only yourself. Let all the "kafirs" do the same.
GOD wants you to warn/remind/advise/converse/exchange views/help/give and take...others ,not judge them!!!! Let them make their own decision and understand GOD s message their way,not yours!!!!
GOD gives every one the chance to change until their last day,who are we to cut that chance for them and judge them prematurely?
GOD bless you all.
Peace

That is very right. One may consider ideas, attitudes, acts or ommissions and have and express ideas or views concerning them and eamine them minutely to see what good or bad there is them. But judging persons is going too, too far, and putting oneself on the wrong seat and position. One may judge whether a person is good for oneself and act accordingly, but not judge the person per se. That is not our job nor faculty nor right and God is sufficient does not need any delegates or helpers on that.

Salaam

HP_TECH

Peace All.

I see. People still judge others when GOD clearly said

22 17 ? Those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Converts ( to any religion), the Christians, the Zoroastrians ( and any name you wish to give to man s religion) and the idol worshippers ( and the Muslims, Hindus, the thousands of religious sects, the disbelievers, the Atheists, etc?) GOD is the one who will judge among them on the day of Resurrection. GOD witnesses all things.?

Fine, some in are my words( in brackets), but surely the rest is quite clear!!! GOD is the one who will judge.
And there lies the problem!!! We want to play "Wakeels" -guardians/take responsibility- for others?

"Wa man yatazakka Fainnama Yatazakka Linafsihi". You stand alone before GOD, cleanse yourself and take care for only yourself. Let all the "kafirs" do the same.
GOD wants you to warn/remind/advise/converse/exchange views/help/give and take...others ,not judge them!!!! Let them make their own decision and understand GOD s message their way,not yours!!!!
GOD gives every one the chance to change until their last day,who are we to cut that chance for them and judge them prematurely?
GOD bless you all.
Peace

I think it is rather imperative that we use our judgement to judge and discern right and wrong. As you said we are to advise and warn others, how can you warn one if not by judging the person's actions and situation?

I guess my second question is how does our judging them cut off any of their chances exactly?
Do you have any power against what Allah wills?

People always misinterpret what judging others truly constitutes.

Teaching others to recognize what a believer and a disbeliever is, is not judging and it is not wrong.

good_logic

Peace HP_TECH

This is exactly what went wrong with humanity,quote
Teaching others to recognize what a believer and a disbeliever is, is not judging and it is not wrong.

Only GOD teaches His wisdom. And what we do is divide each other into "believers and disbelievers" without proper knowledge of what GOD is really saying( We ignore the forgive and be patient and offer a friendly hand - with good knowledge/argument and wisdom-)

I think we need to teach ourselves(each individual needs to do that ) to be humble,understanding and never to " label" without proper evidence that takes into consideration many factors including people s intentions.
I suppose if we were in power we will do the same as what has been done throughout history and fight each other???
Well what can I say? But GOD is in control anyway.
The wrong attitude to have brother, labelling people
GOD bless you.
Peace

Faith

are these man made definations? or your wishful thinking

...

this time just give the answer what i ask in yes or no please then we will proceed talk..

imrankhawaja, your arrogance to Amra94 is unacceptable. When I read this, I almost lost it. Thank God I controlled it. I can sense a bit of passive aggressive behaviour in you.

Peace.

huruf

Most conversations about beliefs turn around words. The word God, the word believ, and unmentionned something that is there but not always said, what one claims one believes, which may be quite different form wht one really believes.

For me aperson who claims not to believe in God, and who may claim also that she does not disbelieve in God or not claim the latter part, says so on the assumption of a certain idea of God not onthe thought of the REAL ACTUAL GOD. To brand that person as disbliever when tht person is selfless and devotes herself to helping others and society in general, to be a good mother or father or husband, a good neighbour, etc. does not that person really believe in

Al 3adl
As-salaam
Al-Latif
Al haqq
.
.
.

List any of the names of God, which that person does nto say that believes but who said or unsaid really serves God under those names. That person has the yaqeen, the conviction, the real belief that she must serve those names, that is hse did not do that she would be failing as the human being she is. I cannot, in ll honesty consider such a peron a kafir, but quite the opposite. Intellectually she may not hve elored the meanings of words like God and so on, but on the other hand the misuse of the word God has been so abusive, that it has deterred many intllects from aproaching it with fresh eyes, but on the other hands, the deeds are right on spot and nearing the person not to the word God, but to the Most merciful Himself.

These debtes get inevitble trapped in words. Usuallywhen one trusts a person through a long time and never gets disappointed by that person because she always deserves the trust that is ut in her, then Ithink that person is almost sure a real believer in God, the one that is not a word but all that is, Who is never fram from our hearts and close to us.

On the other hand, how many self claimed believers really behave with the deep conviction of that reveals itselfs in all that one does?

Playing with words, be they God, belief, this or that, is not the same as having conviction in your heart.

Salaam

imrankhawaja

imrankhawaja, your arrogance to Amra94 is unacceptable. When I read this, I almost lost it. Thank God I controlled it. I can sense a bit of passive aggressive behaviour in you.

Peace.

hmm

confused

nope

u know what i m double checking the meanings of arrogance
and my post to my sister amara is not = arrogance

and i plan for a moment to give u a reply full of arrogance
then i changed my mind
becoz God dnt like arrogance

if u are by chance re incarnation then i ll wish u best of luck
handshake

unknownuser

That means we Quran followers are the only Muslims on this planet.
Atheists aren't different from Sunnis. They are just honest about their view. All Sunnis say they believe in God, but it isn't possible without giving him a chance. All sects are made up of what is in the hadith and not Quran. This means they have faith in Bukhari and friends.We all know orthodox atheists follow the ideologies of the orthodox sunnis, but with just different labels. But what does God have in store for those who did not get a chance to know God because of their environment? We were in that same position once and yet we tried to live a proper life. It is nice that God helped us come to Quran, but what if it did not happen? What would be God's verdict for someone who didn't get a chance to look into his revelations, but led a life similar to what is in the Quran without being unaware about it? And then what about someone who does what the above verses say, but is cruel in the heart?

You sound like you are new to Quran alone. Gradually, as you follow the Book you will learn why we have this kind of opinion.
Yeah, that's true. We can't know what is in a person's heart. Also majority of the people are pressured to follow what is in their environment. They are intentionally kept in the dark. It will not make sense for God to punish them for it especially if they maintained the planet.

EXACTLY REEL! Thats just how I feel too! Alhumdulilah I found this way of God alone, and while I am still shaky its only because I'm new and people like you help me be stronger peace sun
But what about people less fortunate than me, who had no access to internet, or in whose countries' websites like these were blocked, and who couldnt find the way of God Alone? Is it their fault for leaving that mess called sectarian islam? What about people who have suffered so much by sectarians that their whole image of God and Faith has been blurred?
Anyway, nothing is black and white. Ive been told I sympathize with ex muslims too much...but honestly, ex-muslims make more sense to me than sectarians. Atleast exmuslims dont lie to themselves. Sectarians are so rigid and stubborn they'll even defend the camel piss hadith. So I'd rather have a world full of exmuslims and athiests than fundamentalists, salafis and all sectarians. Ofcourse I would love a world where all muslims were God Alone...that would be ideal. But eh....who knows what Allah has in store sun

huruf

I think in every classification in these questions there is error, because finally, the intimate beliefs and emotions of people are the most individualised, so the least amenable to classify in groups. Every erson is her own world, very ppersonal and individual one. Trying to fit into a group or not fit in it is a factor en their developement. That is why jusgement of eople is wrong, unless it is absolutely needed. Let God do that. Lazy people like me do not have much trouble letting God judge, but "action men" tnd to do it. It is better to stand a little off that and try to just appreaciate what people do and how it affects us or our own develoment, without judging the people, because even the worse, re in the middle of their development and we do not know where they may end.

Salaam

Zulf

Regarding 'judging'... I both think we should and should not do it.

We must be very, very careful in judging others, as judging others is usually a strong indicator for both arrogance and lack of wisdom. Much horror of the world starts from judging others. But like HP says, we also need to give good advice to others.

So, best is to share our ideas/judgment on actions and ideas, while avoiding to judge people. People are way too complex and multifaceted for us to be able to judge. It is just childish to judge a person as a whole. However, we can judge a person's actions and ideas, while we at the same time give reasons for our judgment. The judgment must be explained, otherwise it is useless. Judge actions/ideas, not people.

Peace

Zulf

The message of Quran seems to be that believing in God is not same as believing he exists. It is more about having faith in him and seeking guidance from him. Those who don't have the Book can use their consciousness to decide what is right and wrong. We all humans are programmed to do this. We are capable of understanding the consequence of doing vandalism on earth and we need to stand up for what is right. Satan was actually a believer. He acknowledged the creator's existence. But he was called a disbeliever after he disobeyed. It is the same thing with us humans. It doesn't matter what religion we come from.

I like this.

Peace all,

What does it really mean to "believe in God" and in the correct way?

Why do we get so hung up on NUMBERS of Gods? Why do we demand BLIND faith in ONE, SEPARATE, God?
Our thinking is still in the realm of division/poly/separation. We think it is all about quantities.
We think it is all about believing in the right NUMBER of Gods, as if all we have to do is to acknowledge the supremacy of something jealous. We are still into numbers, albeit settling on and nervously assuring our faith in the number 1.

Who is a polytheist, really?

Are Christians polytheists, or semi-polytheists? Are Hindus polytheists? Or do they actually believe in an undivided supreme awareness, while the many "gods" rather are representations of aspects of creation?
Are Muslims monotheists, declaring there is only one God, but devoting most fear and focus around the Last Prophet?
Who is what?

Is polytheism, and the rejection of monotheism, only about how many separate God-entities there are in the sky? Exactly WHY would this be such a severe issue, unforgivable? Is God jealous and emotional? CAN God be jealous and emotional? Well, that depends on your image of God of course.

If someone really is a polytheist and actually believes in many Gods, then isn't that simply that they have misunderstood what God really is? Nobody seriously believes in several Gods. Believing in several Gods is the same as believing in several forces or powers, but certainly not in several Gods. Such people need to be introduced to the concept of God. So, aren't both Christianity and Hinduism monotheistic then, as they believe in ONE supreme consciousness above everything?

On the other hand, I sometimes think that monotheism can be quite polytheistic. All about separatedness and division... so much poly everywhere.

Why not go where there are no numbers?

The world (the Abrahamitic world at least) seems to think that the issue is in the number (quantity) of Gods, and totally forget their relationship to that God. It seems even God and religion is treated as the material world, in quantities, fractions and with limits and boundaries creating physical separation.

Even faith is treated as something material. You need to worship through numbers of bowings, numbers of mantras, numbers of visits to holy shrines. Some people try to be pious by pouring worldly hardship upon themselves, like poverty, hunger and other kinds of material sacrifice. Still it's only material. You are required to have blind faith in messengers, propheths, books, angels and what not.

So why not go inside yourself, in meditation and contemplation, and let your actions and perceptions evolve from this? Why not let a realization grow from withing, from inner experience, instead of having blind parroted culturally programmed faith?

Perhaps acknowledgement is useless. The important thing is to evolve, in reality, not to adhere to some intellectual theory.

Keeping Partners vs Mushrikism

Perhaps we don't really understand what "keeping partners with God" means. Perhaps shirk and keeping partners with God has nothing to do with counting. Perhaps it's something much more fundamental.

Atheism

Sometimes it hard to blame atheists for being atheists, when you see what religion is offering in the shape of irrational traditions and compulsory blind faith in fairy tales full of jealousy, winged horses, negotiations on numbers of prayers, deities sacrificing their innocent children and all sorts of holy waters, stones, areas and saints.

EdQ

I like this.

Peace all,

What does it really mean to "believe in God" and in the correct way?

Why do we get so hung up on NUMBERS of Gods? Why do we demand BLIND faith in ONE, SEPARATE, God?
Our thinking is still in the realm of division/poly/separation. We think it is all about quantities.
We think it is all about believing in the right NUMBER of Gods, as if all we have to do is to acknowledge the supremacy of something jealous. We are still into numbers, albeit settling on and nervously assuring our faith in the number 1.

Who is a polytheist, really?

Are Christians polytheists, or semi-polytheists? Are Hindus polytheists? Or do they actually believe in an undivided supreme awareness, while the many "gods" rather are representations of aspects of creation?
Are Muslims monotheists, declaring there is only one God, but devoting most fear and focus around the Last Prophet?
Who is what?

Is polytheism, and the rejection of monotheism, only about how many separate God-entities there are in the sky? Exactly WHY would this be such a severe issue, unforgivable? Is God jealous and emotional? CAN God be jealous and emotional? Well, that depends on your image of God of course.

If someone really is a polytheist and actually believes in many Gods, then isn't that simply that they have misunderstood what God really is? Nobody seriously believes in several Gods. Believing in several Gods is the same as believing in several forces or powers, but certainly not in several Gods. Such people need to be introduced to the concept of God. So, aren't both Christianity and Hinduism monotheistic then, as they believe in ONE supreme consciousness above everything?

Who is hung up on numbers?
Monotheism is the belief in a one all encompassing power. Polytheism is a a belief in many gods with powers - and if there were multiple god as the myths and legends would have us believe, then each would have sough the way to become the bigger god.
Just as the US is trying to set itself up as being the god-guardian of planet earth - where you follow its morals and use its standards to judge others.
Why would anyone demand blind faith in many gods?

Polytheism

Polytheism is explained above.
Those who set up a man to be a god are clearly being polytheistic. Majority of hindus believe in multiple gods so are polytheistic.
Which Sunni/Shia sets up Mohammad or Ali to be a god?

It is a weakness of the lowly physical flesh nature of humans that makes them want to associate something with the All-present Power (God) which they are not able to compass.
But to be fair how can one imagine a Power which is like nothing else - like nothing that a limited human mind can imagine?
That's why humans have a need to humanize God - either by setting up men to be gods (or as close to God as possible) or by limiting the unfathomable power of God by making the One God into many little sub-gods.

If one is feels incapable and impotent of imaging God and feels the needs to humanize god, then how can one even begin to pose questions about the "personality" or "needs" of God - ie it is a monologue based on the human mind alone.
Thats how Hadiths and Bible were brought into existence the way we know them today.

Salam
Ed

Zulf

Who is hung up on numbers?

Monotheists are.
I think it is better to get rid of faulty images of God, instead of making it all about how many gods there are.
When pondering images of God, the issue of numbers (monotheism/polytheism) will automatically be taken care of.
But, one can still have very irrational images of a monotheistic God, so the mere believing in just one God doesn't really guarantee anything.

Monotheism is the belief in a one all encompassing power. Polytheism is a a belief in many gods with powers - and if there were multiple god as the myths and legends would have us believe, then each would have sough the way to become the bigger god.

Maybe I reason oddly, the idea of "many gods" is a paradox. There cannot be many gods. A god is something that creates it all. How can several gods creating everything including each other? Or, polytheistic-god is not the same concept as monotheistic-god. There should be different words used for these two concepts.

Majority of hindus believe in multiple gods so are polytheistic.

Ok, since that's how 'Polytheism ' is defined. But where do they think all those gods came from?

Which Sunni/Shia sets up Mohammad or Ali to be a god?

It's not very different in practice, only in theory. After all, all we human can have are IMAGES of God. So our gods are whatever images we assign, in words or deeds, god status. People virtually worship the Last Prophet and family. His name is hung beside 'Allah' in the mosques. His name is more revered and used with caution than God's name. People may claim to be monotheists, but why do they then act in ways that indicate worship of other-than-their-monotheistic-God?

It is a weakness of the lowly physical flesh nature of humans that makes them want to associate something with the All-present Power (God) which they are not able to compass.

I understand what you mean, but I see it a little differently. The problem is not our weakness as flesh-beings. The real problem is that we think we are this flesh nature. We associate flesh with ourselves, while we are not flesh actually, and in the same way, we associate things with God. If we cannot understand what we are, how can we understand God?

But to be fair how can one imagine a Power which is like nothing else - like nothing that a limited human mind can imagine?

We are not supposed to associate anything with God. We can start by pondering what we ourselves are, and are not. It's a good start.

That's why humans have a need to humanize God - either by setting up men to be gods (or as close to God as possible) or by limiting the unfathomable power of God by making the One God into many little sub-gods.

If one is feels incapable and impotent of imaging God and feels the needs to humanize god, then how can one even begin to pose questions about the "personality" or "needs" of God - ie it is a monologue based on the human mind alone.
Thats how Hadiths and Bible were brought into existence the way we know them today.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.

Peace and best wishes