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  4. The word 3aSaa (staff) and Musa

The word 3aSaa (staff) and Musa

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Questions/Comments on the Quran
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  • N Offline
    N Offline
    NK
    wrote on last edited by
    #3

    I have read somewhere (I think i have watched one video) that so called magicians at the time of Moses used certain kind of chemicals mainly mercury to made their staffs and ropes looked like moving like a snake. I will share it if I finds it.

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    • H Offline
      H Offline
      huruf
      wrote on last edited by
      #4

      I also read that in an old book, which unfortunately do not remember nor can get back to.

      Salaam

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      • N Offline
        N Offline
        NK
        wrote on last edited by
        #5

        Huruf,

        Check the following video and give your feedback

        https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkP3itoSKJc

        Salam

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        • H Offline
          H Offline
          huruf
          wrote on last edited by
          #6

          I suspect the 3saa and the white hand may have to do with idioms, symbolical expressions which are common in current language. For instance, in the Qur'an we have so mane cases of hand or hands being used in that sense. In fact symbolical idiomatic use of hands in the Qur'an is more common than the physiological, that is why when people insist that the cutting of hands for thieves is physical cutting, it seems more surprising than shocking, which is too, of course.

          I have the feeling that 3asaa with Musa is authority. God gives power of authority even when Musa is actually terrified of it. He is afraid of speaking. In fact, when you get close to the events that are narrated you feel even pity for Musa, how helpless he seems to feel. One remembers the great film shows with a Musa that is like some hero... The trouble he had handling his own crowd and how much he relied on his brother Haroon... In fact I think that the closer you get to the stories of the prophets in the Qur'an the more you get this feeling of they being real persons, not out of a film.

          God, keeps reminding Musa of his GOD GIVEN authority. And that for me would be the most qura'nically typical figure of authority, may be because he, Musa, looked so much for avoiding it. He is not a man consumed by a power quest, but the man who feels so much the weight of it and so ill fitted for it. Dear Musa! and dear Haroon! faithful, sincere in his second best standing by Musa. Haroon has no trouble speaking or facing anything, but he has no qualms staying back stage for his troubled brother.

          Musa is may be the clearest told case in the Qur'an of God asserting his prophets' authority against all odds.

          Teh white hand... Of course, like for the 3saa, I cannot say that it is undoubtedly what I am saying. I just explain my view such as I see it now.

          The white hand... Let us not forget that Musa killed a man as a result of a wrongly placed loyalty to "his people" when as a young man he happened on a fight between one of his people and another man. He himself felt used by that man of his people, and that even as he was in danger of falling again for the same thing, when somebody shouted to him to run away because he was been sought for the killing.
          So he spent many years away and with time he learnt not to be so gullible and being pushed to the wrong deed for the, apparently, good reason. And he must have felt guilty for the past, he must have have had the feeling that his hands were not clean. And even more so when confronted with the authorities who would have aprehended him in the past.

          Isn't that even today what we say about people who have done crimes, that their hands are not clean. Did Pilates, in a well-known gospel passage, not "wash his hands". His hand were sure clean, but he did a show of washing them, to tel something he did not with words.

          So when Musa withdrew his hand from his pocket his hand was white, spotless. God had forgiven and redeemed him. And made him see it so that he could carry out his mission without the burden of guilt.

          We should not forget these events

          Musa was cleansed and he had God given authority. And he did carry out his mission.

          Salaam

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          • M Offline
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            Mazhar
            wrote on last edited by
            #7

            Huruf said

            I have the feeling that 3asaa with Musa is authority. God gives power of authority even when Musa is actually terrified of it. He is afraid of speaking.

            Had Paul Broca read in Qur'aan about the understanding that Musa alahissalam had about speech mechanism he would have felt amazed.

            The first reported case of Expressive aphasia

            It is not of Tan but of Sa'mri- famous sculptor of Golden Calf

            http//haqeeqat.pk/Expressive%20aphasia.htm

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            • S Offline
              S Offline
              si_di
              wrote on last edited by
              #8

              Correct me if i am wrong but isn?t it that suleiman also is mentioned with a staff in a sura?

              Dont know if it?s the same word 3asa used there but i think it is connected with solomons temple.

              peace

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              • H Offline
                H Offline
                huruf
                wrote on last edited by
                #9

                Correct me if i am wrong but isn?t it that suleiman also is mentioned with a staff in a sura?

                Dont know if it?s the same word 3asa used there but i think it is connected with solomons temple.

                peace

                As far as I have checked 3asaa oncly occurs with Musa His staff and the staff of the magicians competing with him. In this case it is a clear contest of the rule by force and ingeniosity or deceit as against the authority of truth. Musa does not need of circus exhibitions, he speaks the truth. He may have also used the staff to turn into a writhing, seemingly alive thing, thus showing that anybody could do it if he know the trick and despising the trick and speaking out the truth. Or may be he just spoke out the truth and ridiculed by virtue of his truthfulness the tricks of the competitors.

                As to Sulayman, a staff is mentionned for him but it is a different word in Arabic minsa'a and it is mentionned in connection with his death

                34.14
                Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task).

                It is a different word, different root and it is very logical since in this aya what is being showed is the loss of authority, through death, of course, but the worm gnawing at Sulayman staff is vary appropriate image.

                On the other hand there is nomention in the whole of Qur'an of any temple of Sulayman of any kind.

                Salaam

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                • S Offline
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                  si_di
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #10

                  On the other hand there is nomention in the whole of Qur'an of any temple of Sulayman of any kind.

                  Some suggest that this Scene is the Building up of the temple while sulaiman is passing away.

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                  • S Offline
                    S Offline
                    si_di
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #11

                    @huruf

                    there is mentioned of a temple in 177

                    "To disfigure your faces,
                    And to enter your Temple
                    As they had entered it before,
                    And to visit with destruction
                    All that fell into their power."

                    And there is i think another vers which is about Mary in the temple so the above Scene is with no doubt "solomons Temple"

                    Synagoge,church or temple are called masjid in the quran

                    peace

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                    • H Offline
                      H Offline
                      huruf
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #12

                      Indeed in aya 17.7 he word that appears is masjid.

                      That masjid is temple, synagogue or church, that I cannot uphold with the Qur'an. It would have to be proved that it is used in that sense int he Qur'an. As far as I have been able to ascertain a masjid is not a synagogue or a temple or church.

                      Buas to Sulaiman not even the word masjid is mentionned in connection with him.

                      The word that appear swith Maryam is mihrab, and that is not masjid nor temple nor anything of the kind. It is the most hnoured place or the highest in a home or any other residence. it is not a temple.

                      Salaam

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                      • S Offline
                        S Offline
                        si_di
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #13

                        huruf wrote
                        Indeed in aya 17.7 he word that appears is masjid.

                        and 174 it is mentioned that this masjid belongs to bani Israel and in goes on that this Masjid will be destroyed by foreign Agressors.

                        If this mentioned Masjid is not Solomons temple then which Building is it in your opinion.

                        peace

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                        • J Offline
                          J Offline
                          Jafar
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #14

                          and 174 it is mentioned that this masjid belongs to bani Israel and in goes on that this Masjid will be destroyed by foreign Agressors.

                          If this mentioned Masjid is not Solomons temple then which Building is it in your opinion.

                          The Masjid is Herod's temple, destroyed by Romans after a failed rebellion by the Judeans in 70 CE.
                          What Mary, Jesus, John, Zachariah, Elizabeth saw and visit during their lifetime is Herod's temple still standing with all of it's glamour and wonder. Herod, albeit a psychopathic tyrant, build many glamorous structure on his realm, the temple in Jerusalem, a deep sea port, fortress at masada. In similar manner as today's Saudi regime built many glamorous structure on their realm.

                          By the time of Muhammad the Herod's Masjid is already in rubble, Jews, including Jewish Christians ( the precursor of what will be recognized as muslim later on) was forbidden to enter Jerusalem or the rubble of the temple.

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                          • S Offline
                            S Offline
                            si_di
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #15

                            Oh,thanks for this Information dont know much about this Building .Is this the guy who heard an Prophecy that the birth of the next King of Judah will be signaled by a luminous star in the sky and when such Comet occured he was afraid that this Prophecy will come true ,and so he ordered to kill all babyboys?

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                            • S Offline
                              S Offline
                              si_di
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #16

                              Quote from Jafar
                              December 06, 2018, 110854 AM

                              The Masjid is Herod's temple, destroyed by Romans after a failed rebellion by the Judeans in 70 CE.
                              What Mary, Jesus, John, Zachariah, Elizabeth saw and visit during their lifetime is Herod's temple still standing with all of it's glamour and wonder. Herod, albeit a psychopathic tyrant, build many glamorous structure on his realm, the temple in Jerusalem, a deep sea port, fortress at masada. In similar manner as today's Saudi regime built many glamorous structure on their realm.

                              By the time of Muhammad the Herod's Masjid is already in rubble, Jews, including Jewish Christians ( the precursor of what will be recognized as muslim later on) was forbidden to enter Jerusalem or the rubble of the temple.

                              Why did you not answered to my question

                              Oh,thanks for this Information dont know much about this Building .Is this the guy who heard an Prophecy that the birth of the next King of Judah will be signaled by a luminous star in the sky and when such Comet occured he was afraid that this Prophecy will come true ,and so he ordered to kill all babyboys?

                              I was right with my suspicioun about this Herodt who tried to kill the upcoming Jesus.Some say he wasnt even a Jew instead he was shown to be pagan.

                              Dont think god is calling such a building "masjid" so 174 is not referring in my current opinion to Herodts Building.

                              peace

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                              • H Offline
                                H Offline
                                huruf
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #17

                                and 174 it is mentioned that this masjid belongs to bani Israel and in goes on that this Masjid will be destroyed by foreign Agressors.

                                If this mentioned Masjid is not Solomons temple then which Building is it in your opinion.

                                peace

                                There no mssjid whatsoever in 17.4 but there is in 17.7, may be you refeto that one.

                                I do not think it is any particular masjid, and I do not think it is any particular time of the many times bani Isra'il suffered after betraying their pact. That seems to have happenned many times to any bani in the world which might be considered as bani isra'il. We all can be considered bany Isra'il.

                                I doubt very much that any temple is adscribed to Sulayman in the Qur'an, which leads me to doubt very much that there was a temple such as that at any time in history.

                                May be it was merely a wet dream of some priestly establishment.

                                Salaam

                                There are two masjids en 17.1 tough.

                                I do nto know whether your efer to those or what.

                                Salaam

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                                • S Offline
                                  S Offline
                                  si_di
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #18

                                  here no mssjid whatsoever in 17.4 but there is in 17.7, may be you refeto that one.

                                  of Course ist vers 7 sorry.

                                  I do not think it is any particular masjid, and I do not think it is any particular time of the many times bani Isra'il suffered after betraying their pact. That seems to have happenned many times to any bani in the world which might be considered as bani isra'il. We all can be considered bany Isra'il.

                                  it says that this masjid was destroyed twice and was rebuild but i agree that does not mean it is the same which solomon is Building in the quran.
                                  bani Israel=We all?is this meant all beliver?

                                  I doubt very much that any temple is adscribed to Sulayman in the Qur'an, which leads me to doubt very much that there was a temple such as that at any time in history.

                                  Well ,i think he build much Buildings as he was king of that area and was known to the rest of world.And as he was a believer it is much possible that a masjid build by sulaiman is indeed possible.

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                                  • H Offline
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                                    huruf
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #19

                                    First of all, of which area do yo mean was Sulayman king?

                                    The Qur'an does not mention a temple or a masjid of any kind that he may have built or wanted to build. If he did build one or twenty, fine, but the point is that in the Qur'an it has not been mentionned at all. Were it so meaningful, since it does talk to some length about Sulayman it seems reasonable that some mention should have been made of it.

                                    As to bani Israa'il, look at the word Israa'. It is the title of the sura we are talking about, al israa', and that is the first part of the compound name israa'il, that is, the undertaking of a night journey to God or to Light. Musa did that with his people when they left by night, Lut did that with his family by night, and figuratevely, all or at least many people undertake a journey from darkness to light, bani isra'il are all those who undertook the journey or the successors of those who undertook such journey and, as is shown at the beginning of the Qur'an, fall, and fall, and fall again and God keeps sending prophets to them, so when after many prophets are sent and they do not take heed, the thing gets tougher for them. That phenomenon is mainly illustrated through Musa and his people.
                                    The thing is that the Qur'an does not bother with ethnic distinction, because that is wholly unimportant, but does bother with moral distinctions based on the behaviour of people. Bani Israil are those who stray ater having accepted the light and then leave the light for darkness. It is not an ethnic grouping but a behaviou grouping.

                                    The Qur'an although it does not ignore history and does say truth always when it says anything, does not bother with history because that is not its aim, but its aim is the improvement of people, all people regardless of ethnicity.

                                    It never mentions which is Musa's people. Verify and see that when his people is mentionned it is so mentioned as "his people". And when it is said bani Israa'il you will also observe that God does not include Musa in the denomination, because Musa, once he received its mission as a prophet never strayed, neither his brother Haroon. They were not bani Israa'il.

                                    The Bible contains a lot, a very big lot of ethnic narrations, not the Qur'an, thank God.

                                    Salaam

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                                    • S Offline
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                                      si_di
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #20

                                      well said

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                                      • H Offline
                                        H Offline
                                        huruf
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #21

                                        well said

                                        Thank you, si di, glad to share.

                                        Salaam sun sun

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                                        • S Offline
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                                          si_di
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #22

                                          okay then lets go to the masjid aksa at the beginnig of the sura
                                          There are two masjids en 17.1 tough.

                                          If its true what Jafar says and it is Herodts temple which the following ayats are desrcibing and the place where "Masjid al-aksa" is now Standing, on the ruins of that temple?

                                          like to read your opinion

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