Sectarian Tendencies and 3:200
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peace be upon you KGB,
the messenger is anybody who delivers the message (to serve The God alone, do good deeds, and avoid evil) these are not some "chosen ones" that The God picks out of a hat but it is anybody who delivers the truth, these have truly recieved inspiration, a messenger does not=someone who talks to a strange light being with wings, no where does it say "muhammadun" is the "last messenger" but it does say he is the "seal of the prophets" and just like the seal on the hearts of the concealers/rejectors (27) can be broken if they end up following the right path likewise can the seal of the prophets
btw
Damon first it was Edip who label me Sunni and now you calling me dishonest person because I refuse to accept your 19 formula and refuse to accept Rashad Al Khalifah as Messenger (just not to offend you).
from what I've seen Damon doesn't believe or isnt obsessed with it if he does believe in the "19 formula", no where has he said in this thread that he has
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Peace Idris
I respectfully disagree with all these Prophet and Messenger spin always brought up by the false Messenger. I believe that Seal of Prophet has already discussed somewhere very clearly and it would be repetition to post it again. Please find and read my views on "Seal of Prophets" in the forum.
Thanks
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Salaam All,
I do believe that messengers come to every community (there is a verse confirming this in quran and as usual I don't have the references wink ...) which means that there was til now no last messenger. Also, the seal of prophets does not mean the last prophet -God does not run out of words...
Now concerning 19.... I'll be always thankful to Rashad Khalifa because the mathematical composition of quran is what brought me to islam in the first place. But as said Layth, this is just one miracle between so many others. Nowadays, even if I found out for sure that the code was just bogus, I'd still be (or try to be) a muslim...
For the last 20 years I've been struggling with many verses in quran and discovering free-minds and it's discussion have helped me a lot.
I do think like idolfree when he states that, even if there is a mathematical composition, we should focus on the message.We will not able to show a unified "muslim" front because we don't have an agreement on so many issues hajj, salat, 19 aso...but this is not really an issue as it shows that there is a lot of free space in the deen. I wouldn't want to live without it! If the God wished us to have just one point of view on those issues he sure is able to be clearer.
The real issue is more about having different points of view and still live together and respect each other - the absolute contrary of sectarians...Question is Would we be able ("free-minders" and "19ers" confounded) to show this open spirit if we were to unite?
Elke
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Peace all,
Is tolerating different views no longer a requirement of being Muslim?
Why can't Edip be allowed to reject 2 verses if he has found based on his research (right or wrong) that they are not part of the Scripture?
Does that disqualify him in some way from being a Muslim?
In the same token, I reject Mekka as being the place of pilgrimage based on my own research (right or wrong) and have stated openly that Jerusalem is Bakka...
Does that disqualify me in some way from being a Muslim?
Please think this matter over and share your views on the thread "What Constitutes a Musilm?"
Intolerance is not what we stand for...
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I think in the efforts to create unity, yet another sect has been formed.
Unfortunately it will be inevitable that Layth and Edip will become idolized by some, this is not a criticism of their character, I'm sure neither would want to be idolized, but an eventuality of such a thing is high. There are leaders, and there are followers. They have a specific view of the Quran, and are trying to unite followers of that specific view, so it will be another group, to compete with sunnis, shiias, etc.
Personally I believe each individual has to follow the Quran their own way, open debate is encouraged though, this place has helped me on my own spiritual journey, so I do not have anything against Layth and Edip sparking more debate, but I cannot let myself be labelled, or let a number be the crutch of my way of life. I wont follow any man or woman in this life again, the book and my interpretation of it will suffice, and the book is pretty clear most times.
There are rules for conduct in the Quran, but I think at this stage of human development it is very unlikely we can expect a mass of people to live by God's rules, in government form, etc, because I believe utopia is for heaven, not Earth.
Islam is something individuals must practice, by doing good works and glorifying God in their hearts. If individuals on the planet live by just this one book the way they believe they must, then let it be, their good works will spread out around the world in an exponential fashion, giving Islam a good reputation again. Encourage open debate on themes and issues, but dont create yet another group or sect, people should follow the book themselves, they should follow the path back to God themselves, because God says that in the end, it will just be each individual meeting God alone that day.
Do we honestly need a 'united force'? A flag? A title? A logo? Will that really effect the world for the better? I think people should just promote the monotheistic way of life that is Islam their own way, through their actions, not through preaching, because not many people around the world take kindly to being preached to, they notice a person's actions much better. So my advice is to simply become better human beings, and whenever people want to know why you are the way you are, or what you believe in, you simply smile at them and say you're a muslim, and that will be another good reputation point for Islam.
God wills whoever He wants to Islam, all is asked of us is live the right way, not necessarily to go out en masse to turn the whole planet into one Islamic nation.
Just my opinion though, peace to you all.
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Personally I believe each individual has to follow the Quran their own way, open debate is encouraged though, this place has helped me on my own spiritual journey, so I do not have anything against Layth and Edip sparking more debate, but I cannot let myself be labelled, or let a number be the crutch of my way of life. I wont follow any man or woman in this life again, the book and my interpretation of it will suffice, and the book is pretty clear most times.
Mashallah. Is there a problem if you, me and Layth or another person come together and share our knowledge, experiences, resources to learn, practice and advocate righteousness?
Peace,
Edip -
Salam Edip,
reading this thread as well as the other one
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2859
I wonder why you don't answer the questions of Idolfree and debate with him (and us) all the important points he made. I think "live with it" is not the right attitude for bringing people together.Salam
warda -
Mashallah. Is there a problem if you, me and Layth or another person come together and share our knowledge, experiences, resources to learn, practice and advocate righteousness?
Peace,
EdipDefinitely no problem with that like I said in my post, but in this case you're endorsing your own specific view of the Quran (people have so many, even on this 'God alone' site everyone has a different perception), you probably wouldnt like to practice or advocate a non-19 code-esque relationship with Islam, right? You are currently at odds with idolfree for example, he finds it impossible to subscribe to your view, your group, and so he becomes an 'outsider' to you, and another division has been made, which is unnesessary.
Basically what I'm saying is debate about the Quran and its meanings is fine, such as this message board, but promoting and creating a group that practices the way of life that is Islam in one specific manner alone, is like another sect, such as the sunnis, etc. It will lead to corruption of sorts, things always degenerate Edip, we see it through history, things created in the best intentions usually turn out horribly wrong.
Islam is something done individually in my opinion, and whenever it is involved in a group fashion, then it is with every human being on the planet, not just a specific group. We have to 'come together and share our knowledge, experiences, resources to learn, practice and advocate righteousness' with everyone, even the idolaters, in the hope that we can eventually show them the light, God willing. As far as I'm aware, the Quran does not necessarily indicate we should live apart from people with other beliefs, or create our own groups (which to me is more or less the same as sects), unless, to some extent, we are being oppressed. We have to stick to our principles in their midst, and if we're in danger or being oppressed we're allowed to either defend ourselves or move away. But if our individual actions, our way of life, manage to sway their minds about 'God alone' Islam, then it is with God's blessing and a good thing.
You cannot guide the ones you love, God guides whomever He wills.
This is just my constantly developing opinion though, I am always in flux, such is this way of life.
Peace.
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Peace be upon you Layth,
Is tolerating different views no longer a requirement of being Muslim?
Yes, but where does it say that we join with everyone? What does tolerating someones understanding have to do with joining a group that serves 19 as a partner with the God?
Why can't Edip be allowed to reject 2 verses if he has found based on his research (right or wrong) that they are not part of the Scripture?
He can be allowed that, who is stopping him? But what reason would we have to join a group with that philosophy of "19" which allows them to remove two verses?
Does that disqualify him in some way from being a Muslim?
The error is in the blanket statement "muslim". "Muslim" means one who peacefully submits, so the question is submits to WHAT? The subject here is 19, how does one submit in regards to 19? Just like we can say one submits to zakaat by giving charity, or one submits to Peace be remaining peaceful, one submits to the story of Solomon by using thier emotions in the right manner,etc. How does one submit regarding 19?
In the same token, I reject Mekka as being the place of pilgrimage based on my own research (right or wrong) and have stated openly that Jerusalem is Bakka...
Does that disqualify me in some way from being a Muslim?
"Muslim" is not a title, so the question is, do you submit regarding the concept of "bakka", lets ask the messenger about that. Is there a physical place where even the poor on the other side of the world are made to come to?
Please think this matter over and share your views on the thread "What Constitutes a Musilm?"
Intolerance is not what we stand for...
Sorry, I wil post there as well.
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Peace Idolfree1,
Is there a physical place where even the poor on the other side of the world are made to come to?
The Quran doesn't say that the poor have to go there, only those who can
397 And God is owed from mankind to make Pilgrimage to the sanctuary, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.
Best regards,
sabo -
Peace be upon you Sabo,
The Quran doesn't say that the poor have to go there, only those who can
Will the poor ever find a way to it, EVERY YEAR?
Should people on the otherside of the world have to spend big money to get there while those who live there just skip on over?
Does that sound like a fair logical system?
Regarding the poor, I was referring to past understanding that I am not sure fits anymore, but it was once thought that we slaughter animals at the so called pilgrimmage and feed the poor, if this is still your understanding, then thaty is what I meant by the poor who are suppossed to be there getting fed by the food. Certainly it will be the poor from that area, not the poor over here in my neighborhood, because they cant afford to travel to the otherside of the world.
