Some help understanding the jussive term in 65:4/pedophilia

unknownuser

SORRY FOR POST IT'S JUST THAT THIS IS REALLY DISTURBING ME AND I CAN'T REST IN PEACE PLEASE DON'T BE MAD GUYS I JUST NEED TO KNOW FOR SURE

https//quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2065-4%20FM3.htm

After doing a huge ton of reading this yahidna implies an intent or coming of it. Also according to the article.

So...is the adding of "yet" justified then? "Did not menstruate yet" While many would argue that this could mean some irregularities, the jussive "yet" makes it sound too ambiguous and hinting too much at girls who are intending to get their periods (as that's literally what the jussive term means). I was pretty disappointed as I read through thousands of threads here and everyone ignored the jussive yet.

I know there are verses discrediting pedophilia in response...but why didn't this verse just say women who have irregular periods or women who stopped menstruating for a period of time ? Why leave room open?

So gross... I didn't expect this at all. I hope someone call tell me that this jussive doesn't apply or something in this verse. I know the quran says "marriagble age" And stuff but the jussive verb is strongly implying pedophilia!!! Please someone tell me I'm wrong.

nope

huruf

You really make me give a good push to review my so long ago studied Arabic grammar.

Here from the internet, but as far as I can ascertain, correct
http//arabic.tripod.com/Moods2.htm

"

Simple jussive particles

Those are four particles which act on one imperfective verb changing it into the jussive mood.

Did not lam
Have not yet lammaa
(Do) not laa
Imperative particle li-

Lam is the negative particle that is used to negate past tense events. However, it is used only with an imperfective verb and can never be used with perfective verbs.

lam yathhab "aliyy(un)

= did not (he) go Ali

Translation Ali didn't go

lam ya'<kul(i) 'al-walad(u)

= did not (he) eat the boy

Translation the boy did not eat

The verb after lam must be in the jussive mood. In the second sentence, the -i was added to prevent two still letters from directly following each other (the of the jussive verb and the of , since that the 'alif of will not be pronounced if it was not the first sound uttered). This vowel will be always added when necessary.
"

As you see the jussive mood is a demand of the partile used not any hint on the meaning of the verb. Lam makes it jussive independent of any other thing. Also, after that, you have your YET, not with lam but with lamma', but which is also nothing to do with the jussive but with the particle.

As to the meaning of "lam" as past, you can see that it is not so necessarily, and in the case of the aya quoted it does not mean much. If it is a past all it means is that when they should have had their menses, they did not have them. Only way known to start to think that a woman is not menstruating. Menstruation must be expressed in the past if you are going to figure any way that a woman is not menstruating. If she is not menstruating because the time has not yet come you cannot know that she is not menstruating.

On the other hand, the lam negation, as I pointed out, in the Qur'an is not at all an indication of past. It is the context that gives the past.

I have already quoted to you sura Al ikhlass. If you are keen in this jussive play, you should be able to tell us, how or when God is expecting to have a partner or somebody to be compared with, depending on the translation.

Also, look at another lam in the final suras of the qur'an

Sura al fil 105

ART THOU NOT aware of how thy Sustainer dealt with the Army of the Elephant? (1) Did He not utterly confound their artful planning? (2) Thus, He let loose upon them great swarms of flying creatures (3) which smote them with stone-hard blows of chastisement pre-ordained, (4) and caused them to become like a field of grain that has been eaten down to stubble (5)

The part in orange is "A lam tara".
You could say it is in the past, but obviously then it is not translating what is being meant.

It is not asking "Did you not see?", because that is not the question, the question is whether you are realising, seeing it now? If you did see it, but now you do not see it, that is, you discard it as if you had not seen, then nothing done, the question is present.

If you translate this to the question of the 65.4 in fact what it would be meaning is that we do not give a damn whether somebody had menses before, what the matter is whether she is having them now. That is, if she has not missed menses.

Of course, we may spend many hours, running from gramar to grammar and from antiQura'nic obssessed wretches to sick islamophobes, and try to run after every little ball they throw at us as if we were their playing lapping dogs, but there is such a thing as common sense, which may not be all that common, which tells us that a bit of checking never harms, but that on the other hand, even to that there is a limit which is common sense itself.

The idea that the Qur'an is guilty unless proven otherwise beyond any doubt of any doubter in the whole universe no matter their intentions or their knowledge or lack of it, apart from being undoable, makes us into idiots and manipulable putty without limit.

I know what you mean, baitachal, you are a bit obssessive like I have been most of my life. That is a very tyring trade, obssession, and one should try to give in only when absolutely necessary not more, although indeed it may halp you later to have gone all the length on some things, so that you know the runaround.

Grammar is an excellent tool but on two conditions

1.We should be sure we are using the right grammar and that we know all of it really and for certain
2. Grammar has its limits, which is the language limit. It is the language that creates the grammar, not the grammar that creates de language, which means that grammar will always be on tow of language, not preeceding it.

The Qur'an has its own language, and we should atune to it. By use you get to get its tune. It is not difficult, just let it sip in.

Oh and there is many more "lam" in the Qur'an, many, many, we could spend many days bringing them up usefully, but I just thought a would look for two as token. What I means is that you can pursue your search for "lams" to make very sure. It might be a good exercise.

Salaam

unknownuser

So is it wrong to assume that the jussive means yet?

This dumb place called wiki islam proved it.

This link showed also that yet is only with lamma not lam

http//arabicfoundation.blogspot.ca/2015/09/arabic-jussive-and-subjunctive-moods.html?m=1

Because my main problem was with the yet and the intent. Even in Joseph Islams article he mentions this with got me more confused.

But if there's no yet or not "intent for it to to come" Then there is no problem. Taking lam yahidna in past tense instead of la (present tense) is better because it shows she didn't get it as a kid.

Yeah like I said in surah ikhlas lam yalad walum yulud. If we apply the same yet and intend logic to that means Allah is intending to beget????
What ??? rotfl

Can I assume that the wiki islam article on pedophilia was wrong then?

huruf

So is it wrong to assume that the jussive means yet?

This dumb place called wiki islam proved it.

This link showed also that yet is only with lamma not lam

http//arabicfoundation.blogspot.ca/2015/09/arabic-jussive-and-subjunctive-moods.html?m=1

Because my main problem was with the yet and the intent. Even in Joseph Islams article he mentions this with got me more confused.

But if there's no yet or not "intent for it to to come" Then there is no problem. Taking lam yahidna in past tense instead of la (present tense) is better because it shows she didn't get it as a kid.

Yeah like I said in surah ikhlas lam yalad walum yulud. If we apply the same yet and intend logic to that means Allah is intending to beget????
What ??? rotfl

Can I assume that the wiki islam article on pedophilia was wrong then?

Don't tell me you are surprised...

As to the Yet and the jussive mood, fantasy...

The jussive mode in Arabic is used for negative commands and for conditional sentences.

In general

"El modo yusivo es un modo gramatical del verbo usado para dar ?rdenes, mandatos o exhortaciones (frecuentemente en forma sugerida o indirecta, por lo que en muchas lenguas usa las mismas formas que las otras formas del subjuntivo)."

... it is used for commands for giving orders or to exhort, frequently as suggestions or indirectly, which explains why in many languages it uses the same forms as the other forms of the subjunctive."

So much for expectations.

Salaam

unknownuser

negative commands and for conditional sentences.

and i take it this verse is neither?

yeah when i saw it from wikiislam figured it might be false, but then when joseph islam from quransmessage also implying jussive mood means intent i got confused....

if we remove the 'jussive mood' and the 'intent' then it makes sense right, esp if we keep "lam' as past and present she isnt mentruating now or in before.... there is still leeway for this to mean young kids -\ -\ but like Reel showed they're other verses albeit not this verse that can disprove it...

oh islamqa, wikislam, ummah.com islam subreddit these are all cancers that i should stay far far far away from!!!!! o ( >(

and stay with the genius huruf!!! laugh laugh laugh laugh

huruf

Thanks , Baitachal, youare really optimistic as to my abilities but I appreciate it. It make sup for other times when somebody does the opposite for me. yay yay yay yay

We must always keep in mind ayas 39.17-18

...Give, then, this glad tiding to My ser?vants (17) who listen to all that is said, and follow the best of it it is they whom God has graced with His guidance, and it is they who are endowed with insight! (1

This is very important. You can play around with meanings and words in order to snatch from the Qur'an by twisting ways some advantage for you in the world. You yourself know you are tricking and you will get from it the reard of the tricksters, that is smoke, emptyness.

However, in our hearts if we listen, as the aya says, if we do listen, to the best of it, we know wht we should understand. But there are wretches who think they are legitimate to crush the Qur'an till it gives nonsense or evilness. What is the use of fallin into the tricks of those eveilm mongers?

We must believe in our fitra, God given fitra and trust that if it is guidance we seek, our fitra if we respect it and listen to it will tell us what the best is.
Wiki islam and those like it, are just playing war against islam and God, an the resort to any trick. It is good to dismantle their arguments and lack of knowledge but always our our own sake of learning and geting more understanding of the Qur'an, but never, never, to hink they are right. They do not give a damn about right or wrong not do they love us. They are arrogant brats or cannon fodder for those who use them.

Without getting into too much grammar or comparisons Do we really feel that the best we can get from aya 65.4 is a ligitimatio for pedophilia or do we feel that whoever extracts such meaning form the aya is straying very far, clutching to straws as an alibi? or otherwise that they are completely lost?

listen to the best of it. The best of it from this aya is a society where care is taken that every person that comes to the world, knows when he or s2ha comes and gets hr or his rights and duties from those who owe them to her or him. A society where every person, female or male is safeguarded as to her or his repsonsibilities and duties, and know where she or he stands. Not to fabricate alibis for sadists or vicious mosters that need fresh flesh for their sick minds. We might as well start sacrificing children to Molok.

"... it is they whom God has graced with His guidance, and it is they who are endowed with insight! (1"

It is no mean gift.

Salaam