Khalifa in 2:30 has to mean Satan!

EdQ

Salam Faith,

Apologies for the bad editing of my previous post - I have corrected the editing and re-posted it here so it can be read. I look forward to your views.

al-Baqarah 230 -
Wa-ith qala rabbuka lilmala-ikati innee jaAAilun fee al-ardi khaleefatan qaloo atajAAalu feeha man yufsidu feeha wayasfiku alddimaa wanahnu nusabbihu bihamdika wanuqaddisu laka qala innee aAAlamu ma la taAAlamoona

And when said your Lord to the angels, "Indeed, I (am) going to place in the earth a vicegerent, they said, "Will You place in it (one) who will spread corruption in it and will shed blood, while we, glorify (You) with Your praises and we sanctify He said, "Indeed, know what not you know."
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/30/default.htm

If God is telling the Angels that he is creating or about to create humans, then could it not mean that this was before the Angels knew about the rejection by Iblis (that you refer to)?

The verses you quote to show that the Angels knew about Satan's rebellion come after 230 don't they?

If this is the case, then maybe you are implying that the Angels may know about the NATURE of Satan - ie that he has free will - just like humans would have free will?

Perhaps for the angels, it is this free will that would cause man to spill blood.

Salam
Ed

Faith

Peace,

what i m trying to say is "the verse you gave as a refrence is not proving that satan is god on earth" thats whats the whole discussion was..

Prove that I said "satan is god on earth" as you blatantly ignore me including "could". Quote me on where I said what you claim I've said. "could" doesn't necessarily mean that Satan is God, as there are humans who indeed believe that satan is god, and that is done by whispers (verse below)

1144 - "From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,"
1145 - "Who whispers into the chests of the people."

in 3660 think deeply and then see what God is saying .. the bold part of ur text is indicating towards shaitan not ibless. shaitan is an adjective to evil..
exactly evil/bad/immorality is our enemy. we should not serve it. do not serve satan = do not do bad things

Since you think satan and iblis have no mutual relation, what does 236 talk about? Is Iblis out of the picture in this verse too?
236 - So, the devil caused them to slip from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on the earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."

Nitpicking is your specialty.

If you think saying "this time just give the answer what i ask in yes or no please then we will proceed talk.." is normal to another person then there's nothing I can say to this matter. Using intimidation to get the upper hand in a discussion will get you nowhere.
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609421.msg404278#msg404278

imrankhawaja

Peace,Prove that I said "satan is god on earth

ok i just had another nitpicking ... yay

What the angels said in 230 was not a prediction of the future, which they had no knowledge of, but they were echoing what Satan himself vowed to do. As a result, they complained to God as to why God would place Satan as a ruler on earth when he will spread corruption and shed blood.

The one whom God made a ruler on earth is indeed Satan. Satan is able to whisper to us while we cannot see him. He is granted powers above the powers of the human being, and he controls the minds of a great section of the human race and he is able to misguide so many.

who is ruler ? what is the meanings of ruler? who is able to guide and misguide us? who is controller(malik) of human mind elektro

Nitpicking is your specialty.

no its not my specialty its my duty to check and verify the information specially when a news is from a lier like khalifa who lied about the verses of quran .. police

Faith

who is ruler ? what is the meanings of ruler? who is able to guide and misguide us? who is controller(malik) of human mind elektro

imrankhawaja, your answer would have been perfect, if I said "After God has guided, Satan is able to misguide so many"
What else would you like to nitpick?

The words in the first few post aren't my words, like I stated in a previous post. Me saying "In my opinion," was done to say, that you shouldn't take my word for it. In my opinion = In my view, upon viewing that Article that I'd share to start a discussion. Could have been worded differently, but that's on me. But I did declare that (as quoted down below, after a few posts)

Believers, most of what I said in this thread is from another article, and this website author seems to believe that the last 2 verses from chapter 9 are false, just found out. I disagree with the author.
This is merely a discussion for me to find truths, where I thought I'd include this article and your thoughts. Author made a contradiction in saying there was existence before Adam, to saying human beings weren't created.

BUT, My view on "successor" not suiting 230 still stands.

God knows best.

Here is the website if you are doubting me
http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/why_we_are_here_(P1351).html
http//www.quran-islam.org/faq/khalifa_on_earth_(P1373).html

Peace.

imrankhawaja

The words in the first few post aren't my words, like I stated in a previous post.

ok look at this how you start your opening post.. but still claiming its not your words

Peace,
In my opinion, ..........
............As you know, scholars have interpreted 230 to mean that they can assign their traditional Imams/Scholars to best fit this position, well I disagree.

Here is the website if you are doubting me http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/why_we_are_here_(P1351).html

hmm so now i understand you are trying to tell us that these are not your words its the words of the honarable messenger khalifa by your lips... rotfl rotfl rotfl

What else would you like to nitpick?

nothing at the moment just want to advise 17 36 thats all...
may God bless you and guide you to his right path and save you from the whispers of sneaky whisperer...
(be careful about khalifa teachings) its for your own good... and dnt take me as your enemy perhaps my attentions are only to share knowledge and get knowledge.. handshake

and yeh you asked one question i think u edited that post ..
satan = just ibless (not correct)
satan = ibless,humans,kids,animal(monkey),selfish desires,evil forces,devil,jinn,vampires,aliens (adjective) anything can be satan and we can use satan word for anyone of these.. according to grammer rules.. hope you got it..

MissMarple77

Perhaps for the angels, it is this free will that would cause man to spill blood.

It's the second time you have just said something, I had also in my mind. I thought, it is not necessarily because of the behaviour of any previously created beings, why the angels thought humans will spread corruption and shed blood. Because they said ...while we, glorify (You) with Your praises and we sanctify

EdQ

It's the second time you have just said something

Thanks. I hope the first time wasn't my badly edited post.

Aladin

Faith, what is the meaning of words sheytan, sheyatin, melek and melaiket? I think it's important to understand this ayet.

wiseman

I think Adam was created after earth was created. And by that time, there were already plants, trees, seas, mountains, animals, and insects everything just like now, but without human beings. When God said He wanted to create a successor, Angels might have thought of the animals, or dinosaur that kills and shed bloods. But when Adam told angles the names of everything ( hence showing intelligence ), angles said they did not know the unseen, because they had not seen anything like humans before. So i think the successor is human beings - the super intelligent animals.

Again, as humans posses intelligence, they can believe in unseen using reasoning, which is why angles were yield to Adam.

imrankhawaja

I think Adam was created after earth was created. And by that time, there were already plants, trees, seas, mountains, animals, and insects everything just like now, but without human beings. When God said He wanted to create a successor, Angels might have thought of the animals, or dinosaur that kills and shed bloods. But when Adam told angles the names of everything ( hence showing intelligence ), angles said they did not know the unseen, because they had not seen anything like humans before. So i think the successor is human beings - the super intelligent animals.

Again, as humans posses intelligence, they can believe in unseen using reasoning, which is why angles were yield to Adam.

bravo

and i want to add ..

the animal body with a feature of freewill/authority/intellect (sense of right and wrong)

both things were already in the notice of malaikats

the scientific evidence for fossels of (life) on young earth can dated back to 3 billion years .
earth just born approax 4.5 billion years ago..(as per science)
http//www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39117523

and moreover the jinns were also there ibless was also one of them..

infact characteristics of human being is a mixture of animal body and jinns freewill/authority

so thats why angels along with the master jinns questioned about our purpose.? becoz it was a dangerous combination see the (note) in the end..

but previlege to human kind and a blessing of our lovely God that he distinguish truth from falsehood

in the end angels "sujoood" to human..but ibless jealous due to the first side effects(shaitani) of authority/freewill

NOTE (my personal understanding is this) free from the truth of God he alone knows the truth regarding every matter..

animals were senseless so if they do bloodshedding it was not considered as the wrong doing becoz angels were aware about the laws of universe is destruction ...

jinns have the freewill/authority but they were invisible by the laws to directly involve in bloodshedding.. like we cant see a jinn can slaughter a cow.. etc(just in exception) they can use the laws if God wills..

the human being got both of the characteristics and it was dangerous game to put it on test thats why angels were confused ..(but God said i know what you dnt know) .. he is really a lovely God.. otherwise human being was not a thing to mention but he gives us sight & intellect along with authority of using our intellect(ch 76)

ibless was jealous becoz he was thinking the energy is better than dust.. and he did not submit to humankind..
at there the submission was actually if a human wills and find out the law then he can get work from jinns(in case of solomon)
but we did not see jiins are getting work from humans ..(thats was the jealousy)

may God improve our understandings pr

EdQ

Salam Faith,

Apologies for the bad editing of my previous post - I have corrected the editing and re-posted it here so it can be read. I look forward to your views.

al-Baqarah 230 -
Wa-ith qala rabbuka lilmala-ikati innee jaAAilun fee al-ardi khaleefatan qaloo atajAAalu feeha man yufsidu feeha wayasfiku alddimaa wanahnu nusabbihu bihamdika wanuqaddisu laka qala innee aAAlamu ma la taAAlamoona

And when said your Lord to the angels, "Indeed, I (am) going to place in the earth a vicegerent, they said, "Will You place in it (one) who will spread corruption in it and will shed blood, while we, glorify (You) with Your praises and we sanctify He said, "Indeed, know what not you know."
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/30/default.htm

If God is telling the Angels that he is creating or about to create humans, then could it not mean that this was before the Angels knew about the rejection by Iblis (that you refer to)?

The verses you quote to show that the Angels knew about Satan's rebellion come after 230 don't they?

If this is the case, then maybe you are implying that the Angels may know about the NATURE of Satan - ie that he has free will - just like humans would have free will?

Perhaps for the angels, it is this free will that would cause man to spill blood.

Salam
Ed

Hello Faith,
You may have missed this post as I did not see a reply from you.
Ed

Faith

Salam Faith,

Apologies for the bad editing of my previous post - I have corrected the editing and re-posted it here so it can be read. I look forward to your views.

al-Baqarah 230 -
Wa-ith qala rabbuka lilmala-ikati innee jaAAilun fee al-ardi khaleefatan qaloo atajAAalu feeha man yufsidu feeha wayasfiku alddimaa wanahnu nusabbihu bihamdika wanuqaddisu laka qala innee aAAlamu ma la taAAlamoona

And when said your Lord to the angels, "Indeed, I (am) going to place in the earth a vicegerent, they said, "Will You place in it (one) who will spread corruption in it and will shed blood, while we, glorify (You) with Your praises and we sanctify He said, "Indeed, know what not you know."
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/30/default.htm

If God is telling the Angels that he is creating or about to create humans, then could it not mean that this was before the Angels knew about the rejection by Iblis (that you refer to)?

The verses you quote to show that the Angels knew about Satan's rebellion come after 230 don't they?

If this is the case, then maybe you are implying that the Angels may know about the NATURE of Satan - ie that he has free will - just like humans would have free will?

Perhaps for the angels, it is this free will that would cause man to spill blood.

Salam
Ed

If God is telling the Angels that he is creating or about to create humans, then could it not mean that this was before the Angels knew about the rejection by Iblis (that you refer to)?

Peace Ed,
My bad, must have missed your post,

Adam was present when this verse happened. Unless you mean that these verses were revealed in chronological order. Can humans shed blood and cause corruption without the influence of the devil/Iblis (First instance being Adam and his spouse and the forbidden tree)?

wiseman

bravo

and i want to add ..

the animal body with a feature of freewill/authority/intellect (sense of right and wrong)

both things were already in the notice of malaikats

the scientific evidence for fossels of (life) on young earth can dated back to 3 billion years .
earth just born approax 4.5 billion years ago..(as per science)
http//www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39117523

and moreover the jinns were also there ibless was also one of them..

infact characteristics of human being is a mixture of animal body and jinns freewill/authority

so thats why angels along with the master jinns questioned about our purpose.? becoz it was a dangerous combination see the (note) in the end..

.....

I think animals have freewill not just jinns. in fact, animals, mountains, lakes, molecules, atoms all may have freewill as well according to "4111 - Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth ?Come willingly or unwillingly.? They said ?We come willingly.?

Even thought animals kills each other, shed blood sometime, but not necessarily all animals die of bloodshed. Most of them may die naturally. As God does not create creatures just for fun or entertainment, bloodshed among animals might not be accepted that easily by angles as life on earth. but I think the point to take is the intelligence and reasoning humans possess that angles did not know what God said He wanted to create a successor on earth. Animals have memory, they can learn, exhibit intelligence, like bees and ants, have social structure. But reasoning, which is necessary for believing in God without seeing Him. I am not interested in finding out what angles knew and did not knew, and what jinns were made of and capable of, as these does not seem to help me and benefit me at the moment, and without much information, this could be just a conjecture, and leads to baseless argument. but the single thing that made angles to change their view of Adam and submitted to Adam was the reasoning skills that can generate knowledge, which i think is unique to human beings, and not even possessed by the jinns, or iblis. This superior intelligence in inferior body might be what tricked Shaytan.
Knowing what awaits Shaytan in the hell, he did not try to repent, showed no regret, did not ask God for forgiveness, but asked long life to deceive humans,or does he not care about fire in the hell because it is what he was created from?

imrankhawaja

peace wiseman,

yes i agree everything has freewill, (heavens,earth,mountains) as per 3372

but everybody is not responsible for using that freewill due to lack of intelligence/awareness/authority

we are responsible of our freewill

example is if a cow hit/kill you no court of law or law of God punish that cow due to using that freewill
but if you do the same court of law and law of God punish you thats the difference between human and rest of the creatures (excluding angels and jinns)

Knowing what awaits Shaytan in the hell, he did not try to repent, showed no regret, did not ask God for forgiveness, but asked long life to deceive humans,or does he not care about fire in the hell because it is what he was created from?

its not a logical thinking

it dosent matter whatever material he created from

we know we are creation of dust , and same rock of dust hit us in certain velocity can result in eye loss

we have 70 % water in our body but pressure of water can tear us apart and can give us a terrible death voodoo

about jinn if he is created from energy , there are some form of energies that overcome other energies like this elektro

creator know what we dnt know ? and fire(naar) of hell is a condition totally unwanted that fire(energy) will ripped us apart i am already scared bro .. sun some stars are even hotter and the chemical reaction is million times more strong than our sun..

and i m just confused about that guy , if he already know that he is unable to do anything that can save him from God then why did he do it?

if i know somebody is more powerful than me i must have to submit willingly or unwillingly but there is no way that i declare a war , its stupidity..

if he is that stupid how come he trick us in his plan ?

is ibless a metaphorical figure of enemy or we are still in a suspense?

things are not that easy what we suppose..
we are in a clear loss , becoz nothing is perfect apart from creator..

God bless you

wiseman

Peace,

I feel that The Book does not tell us everything, but it might tell us what need to know, guiding principles for reasoning. I agree with a view that The Book was sent by God and The World is created by God, hence if there is conflict between them, it is our understanding that we need to check.

Let us move on to Hell. Say hell burns, and we know burn causes pain. But which part of our body is responsible for sensing the pain?Brain? Neurons? Maybe the physical matter/cells/molecules/atoms we are made of us do not necessarily sense the pain. A person who just died, would not sense the pain it he/she is incinerated. It led me to believe that there is more than what we can see and feel to our creation. That something else might be soul. It might be our soul that actually feels the pain. Plants do not have souls, they don't feel the pain when burned, but animals have souls and they scream when get burnt.

Even with modern advanced technology we can only observe the interactions taken place on our brain / neurons when we made certain decision or when we dream. Based on the similar patterns exhibited in bran cells, we can tell, to certain probability, that if the person is dreaming a cat and feel hungry. But it is not a proof that pain / pleasure taken place at brain cells, just like we can detect interactions of atom, but we can never see them. Breathing and blood pressure may change during a dream, but that does not mean dream takes place at heart or lung.

Let us say when a person dies, every cell in his body is destroyed and become earth, molecules /atoms. There is no way to differentiate the atoms / molecules which made up your body from my body. If a person's body is re-created after The Judgement Day, that person shall be a totally new person and it is someone else, even same atoms were used to create that person, it will still be new person, different person. How can that person (new him) will be punished for the sins of someone else (old him) committed in this world? We eat and we drink so what made up our body keeps changing and they are not what really makes us what/who we are. Following this logic, I believe there has to be in the body that will remain and will be put into the new creation. Let us say it might be the soul. The same soul in the old body was responsible for the sins or decision making or desire, and when re-created within a new body, the same soul is what will suffer the pain for punishment.

So Iblis, or Shaytan, likely have something like soul within his body/form, even he was created from fire, that actually feels the pain of burning. But this is still not what i want to point out. I feel the whole point people here feel Shaytan was sent as successor to this world is because Muslims are poor, living under poverty and oppression or war, at least in most of the parts of the world in present time, and Shaytan and his followers are ruling the world (really???I think the most powerful man in the world cannot even decide what happens in his backyard.), having much of the wealth. But how could this be allowed to happen to Muslims if God has created the earth and heaven with truth (2944)? The Book encourages thinking / reasoning. Shaytan, I think, saw or at least felt the presence of God, and believed in God without doubt. But believing in God did not help Shaytan, and it might not help Humans as well, if they do not follow the truth, with which everything was created.

Khalifa in 230 has to mean Satan! I think this topic is totally waste of time. What if Satan is Kahlifa? What if he is not? Is the person who asked / wrote this, or anyone of us, is going to change his way of life because of the answer? Or was this a simple intellectual exercise? If The Book answered that question, it would not have been asked here. Many centuries have been wasted answering and pondering over what verses in The Book might mean, mostly to share his own / unique view / guesswork, and probably to feel good or superior about himself for having some insight or an enlightenment. What is behind this motivation for sharing personal view formed without evidence? Many people replied to this topic, stating his own view (including myself), obviously none of us have solid evidence to back up if Satan is or is not Khalifa. This is ignorance. It is ignorance to ask a question that serve no purpose. And it is ignorance to jump into debate or trying to answer what we do not know or do not help us. It is the ignorance that cause many things to be wrong with Muslims. And the root cause of this ignorance is the unwillingness to reason and investigate given evidence before forming a view/concept. Muslims countries, nations, people are suffering from wars, poverty, conflicts, and all of this is because of ignorance. The result of this ignorance is the wrong actions that people take based on the concepts / views that formed on half truth or limited truth. And somehow people hold onto or cherish these concepts too much for too long, and giving up these threatens their value system.

Most people in this forum already disregarded The Tradition (Hadith) and only follow The Book. It now seems many do not know what to do with The Book, but spending most of their time guessing what some verses mean and try to develop new Tradition over the time. It is like Moses took the children of Israel to the straight path to God, and his followers asked for a calf to worship.