Who were the Qarmatians (bahrein and Qatar and arab versant of persian Gulf ) ?
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Salaam All
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qarmatians
History reports two complely differents stories abors qarmatians
- First version, sunni, traditionnalist, present qarmatians as the worst muslims ever in the history. Ennemies of islam, pedophily, incest, drugs, homosexuality and all the sins you can imaginte. And the worst (the best for me) thing they did is the attack of Mecca, profanation of zemzem end the theft of Black Stone.
- the Second version, is that they were the first egalitarian and secular islamic people in the world. Is is even said thatit was "A society whose order and justice attracted the admiration of non-karmate observers"
https//attwiw.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/map-islamic-world-ca-1000-a.jpg?w=626&h=421
Of course, for me, when i read such things, i directly says that qarmatians should have been very good guys.
For me, the qarmatians testify in history that there is muslim that contested "Mecca and Kaaba" as superstitions in the same era they were invented.History we have now is of course a tale written by Persians scribes under caliphate abbasside. I don't event even believe that Omeyyads are children of a guy named Oumayya. This name is feminine and Omeyyades is too similar to the famous word Oumma.
Quraich also is mentionned once in Quran as a tribe who allied to Muhammad (ilaf quraich)
In fact, quraich point also to same region of arabic persian gulf since qirch (squale) was a deicity in Bahrein who has even been called bilad el qirch. No squales in Mecca.And of course, Qarmatians and Abbasides were ennemies. Qaramatians were defeated and quite all we know about them was wrote by their sunnis ennemies.
Qarmatians however were, as movement, the cousin of the fatimides. They were both ismaelites, probably chiites, and their doctrine is full of Battinya like "sufis".
one of the "tradititionnalis" miming medernity in this era, adnen ibrahim, explains us funny things about batiniyya (https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRdmUby6z8Q)
- of course they were worst muslims and the most dangerous for true islam. Incest and so on.
- they practice taqiyya (hiding their faith) since they were persecuted by "good muslims", that is sunnis of Abbassides, who kill them in "name of Allah".
- they pervert words and says salat is ni not salat, hajj is not hajj and saoum is not saoum
- they were educated, knowing philosophy and science, and were very good in debating with arguments
exactly like "quranists" now. And there is many other similarities (hidden meaning in quran, studing quran...)
Brother pazuzu (we missed you brother), told us something like this
This ancient city has been embedded in the Arabian memory for time out of mind, as an example of the destruction which befalls human settlements resulting from natural catastrophies. It is located in a province known as ?Mikhlaf Jayshan? , to the south of Sana'a. It is in the greatest of the old Yemeni ?makhaleefs? (provinces or mini-kingdoms), and during the time of Muhamad (P), it was famous as the homeland of the Qaramita a prestigious Yemeni clan who were among the first to embrace Muhamad?s message. Tyre was their capilatl city. (I will show you where it is on the map).
In his book DoA, al-Hamadani says the following about Soor (Tyre)
" ".
He names some of the most important towns of the mikhlaf. Pay attention to the two underlined words Badr and Soor (Tyre). Both these ancient towns were part of the Jayshan Province.
Another geographer, Yaqoot al 2amwi, associates the Mikhlaf of Jayshan with the craddle of many clans, among them the Qaramita, who were among the most prominent clans in Islamic history.
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The city of Tyre perished as a result of a series of volcanic eruptions which left a permanent trace in the tribal memory of ancient Arabia. The town, which was originally one of the most prosperous in the Surat region, tragically became an example of nature?s wrath, and a subject of many ancient Arabian poems.
I don't know from where pazuzu get the information that Qaramites where among the first clan who embraced islam. He seems to place them in yemen, soth Sanaa.
however i have to notice some things for whose who wants to help me for further researchs
- I am convinced that Mecca and Actual Medine is a total invention of Abbasides scribes (bukhari and other fictional personnages). Nobody herad about them before (romans, persians, jews, grecs, ...). I suspect that Hijra occured to the famous capital of old bahrein who is named Hajar. I suspect also That Muhammad was from the area between actual Qatar and actual Oman. (see https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604929.20)
http//farm4.staticflickr.com/3519/4081867943_0b04949894_d.jpg
It is very interesting that the people (qaramites) who first opposed to abbasides tales had their state exactly in this region.
maps of alleged islamic conquest are totally false. in fact true history told us that islam, when getting outside arabian peninusula, began with the conquest of irak, syria and jerusalem. There absolutely no trace of army coming from actual Medina.
"The expansion" of islam at its beginning is miltary absurd. Armies cannot cross sahara many times to attack romans and persians from irak or conquer yemen coming from oman. It has no sense if they were in hijaz/medina.this maps is totally absurd
http//img.agoravox.fr/local/cache-vignettes/L620xH551/mh1-a8ea1.jpg
and first muslims were cleraly from the other side. In the arabic side of paersian gulf.
There was nothing in Mecca and Medina. Nothing from the beginning of human history.Capital of caliphate was kufa in Irak since 656. The move of califate from medina to kufa is quite impossible to imagine with such rapidity.
there is no historical trace of islamisation by war in then arab side of persian gulf . It is told us that they became Muslim by "a simple letter" or rassol. Incredible when we know that they were just in front on the great persian empire with the monotheist religion of zoroastrianism.
i give now these links
Qaramites are good (sorry in french)- http//delorca.over-blog.com/article-quand-les-chiites-du-bahrein-inventaient-un-communisme-islamique-75683893.html
-https//numidia-liberum.blogspot.com/2013/06/les-qarmates-des-precurseurs-du.html
Qaramites are bad
-http//arabic.islamicweb.com/shia/qaramita.htmhttp//bahrain-history.net/1405.html (not read yet)
I am convinced that there is a big secret in Qaramites history
Abbasside and sunnis perverted all the history as they perverted islam.-They made a very bad portay to their ennemies. Omeyyades are whose who expanded islam. Abbassides did nothing. All the word have seen the omeyyades vision of islam in spain. it was a gold age for spain and even for europe.
-Fatimides founded el azhar and expanded also in africa. They were also ennemies of Abbasides. Fatimides represents the golden Age of North Africa.
Life to Qarmatians !
But, who were they in fact ?Peace
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exactly like "quranists" now. And there is many other similarities (hidden meaning in quran, studing quran...)
i did not understand this part if you clarify it please..
thanx
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i did not understand this part if you clarify it please..
thanx
l
Salaam
difficult for me and my poor english to enter such difficult philosophical parts. I speak about spiritualy and some esocterics. In fact there is conception of religion that focus between a whorshipper and his god (some gnotiscism). Sunnism and actual chiism focus more on religious links between whorshippers themselves, and about rituality in group, forgetting to connect to God in a up and down relation. They are in transversal relation with many intermediates.Peace
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peace noshirk..
actually i wanted to ask are you reffering this "quranist" to the people who are engagge in God alone movement like peacemaking ..
as far i know peacemaking was the only system acceptable infront of God (not a label quranist) in any case how come quranist are similar to the people who you reffered?
God bless u
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peace noshirk..
actually i wanted to ask are you reffering this "quranist" to the people who are engagge in God alone movement like peacemaking ..
as far i know peacemaking was the only system acceptable infront of God (not a label quranist) in any case how come quranist are similar to the people who you reffered?
God bless u
Salaam
if i can choose a name, i woukd choose muslim to God and mo'min
however these names are took by different species of ennemies of allah
People refer to my doctrine as quranist and i have to take that into account
i prefer however extremist quranist tio be distinguished from people who says to be quranists but still take quite all understanding from hadiths and traditions. They can easily be recognized since they still make salat, zakat, saoum, hajj and even shahada as traditionalists.
They are false quranists for me.Islam is not peace making for me. Islam means triyng to get health, spiritual health and body health.
Muslim should be a spititual warrior against lies and mainly lies on Allah.
Muslim have to make war if attacked. An has to defend innocent people and cannot be peacemaker if in front of them there is people like ISIS.Finally, i don't know exactly who are qaramites.
I made the remarks that we have same ennemies and ennemies describe us as they describe qaramites with same intellectual critics. And as showed in the links, Qaramites and batiniyyous contest that salat is salat and so on.To the question Is Qaramite thoughts are same as extremists quranists. ?
Probably not. Philosophically it seems probable but ideas changes over time.
I don't think even that Muhammad, the rassool, understood quran as we did. I think for example that probably he didn't knew who is the true Issa or where lived Exactly Moses.
Muhammad was given the knowledge needed to succeed his mission. He didn't understood all quran for sure for me.I don't think that we have to search people in 700 who have the same "religious ideas" than us. But only who share philosophical principles.
For example, i feel near the Gnosticism https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism even if they never had quran between hands. In fact i am not a quranist since i feel near such people who nver touched qurani don't like to speak about theses things in English. i can't transmit such complex ideas as i want in this langage.
Peace
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yes brother there is a difference between religion and system one need to understand it
system is an attitude of life
religion is a label of life..one can live without religion but without system nothing can run..not even a small house where the system of wife is different than husband.. same goes with every field of life..
although i wish you best of luck in your journey..
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Very interesting text, noshirk. Really, really, history, when we go out of what is spoonfed to us is a real treasure trobe.
It is a pity there is not ime to explore everything.
But keeping an open mind is in itself a big reward.
Salaam
Salaam bro
Qarmatians were in what not religious History call makka
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maka_(satrapy)
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Provinces_of_the_Achaemenid_empire.png
funny. No ?
if theory that "zul qarnein" is Cyrus, then it was Makka of Cyrus.Peace