How to defend ourselves against ignorant people/traditional Muslims?

reel

I bring up the raw academic work and that has silenced each and every nonMuslim who had that misconception about me. On Twitter, you will find even atheists agreeing that hadiths are the problem and that Quran looks sober without them. As for the sectarians, they just leave. We see a few on our subreddit. Outside I don't talk about my belief. We will never be too many in number ever. Sectarians would rather be atheist than Muslim. It is the truth in regions captured by ISIS. Plenty of local Arabs who saw them have turned atheist.

God alone believers are divided into more sects than code beleivers..

i.e different person have different interpretation in which one is disagree with other ..

like the issue of salat(timings), fastings, some of them even make their own sects..

Which ones seem more damaging?
a) disagreeing on salat(timings), fasting

b) disagreeing whether someone out of Islam deserves death sentence because of a book full of contradictions

c) oppressing females, animals, people of other religions, freedom to think and seek God's guidance

d) good intention, being aware, learning, reflecting, remembering that we are responsible for our deeds and not the Prophet

like pervezi(the followers of ghulam ahmed pervaiz)

the big difference between pervezi and God aloner

pervezi believe there is no miracles and jinss exist
God aloner believe its exist

pervezi didnt have Internet. Majority of us never heard of them.

imrankhawaja

pervezi didnt have Internet. Majority of us never heard of them.

they do have it now
and interestingly the interpretation of shabbir ahmed is totally on the teaching of ghulam ahmed pervaiz..

and its one of the popular quran alone translation.. he also reject miracles and jinns..

BTW my sweet sister the theme of my message is something else to ponder the same thing what i say to brother GL..

good_logic

Imran,
I see GOD Alone as a solution,GOD can unite the hearts regardless of religion,sect,race...etc.

How do we know the sincere from the "Munafiq" from the disbeliever in each religion? But GOD knows.

Also people are going to differ in views as long as there are races,nationalities and traditions.
So ,what is your solution?
Are you expecting a "single uniform understanding" from everyone? That will never happen and it is not required from the Lord. GOD gave a minimum requirement knowing this.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

peace Gl, my lovely brother, let me tell you something we were actually discussing about the marriages and i told my brother submitter not to think the way how majority see it ..
coz if we start looking a wife according to our religious thoughts then its impossible to find a partner untill life time..
faith and marriage are two different things, if God interfere in catagorising the marriage then it will b the LAW for everybody so thats why author of quran did not impose a LAW. he is intelligent he did not bother who get married with who. so as a advise he suggest us to marry with the one who you think is compatible with you.. like peacemaker for peacmaker, backbitter wife for backbitter husband, criminal wife for criminal husband, regardless of religious label or nation of countries.. hope i make it clear now..

I see GOD Alone as a solution,GOD can unite the hearts regardless of religion,sect,race...etc.

lets talk about this quote .. how you will see it in the light of these verses. its appears God is the one who divide all of this

4913 O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Ever-aware.

548 For each of you We have made laws, a structure. Had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you, so advance the good deeds. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

7168 And We divided them throughout the earth into nations

11118 And if your Lord had willed, He could have made mankind one community; but they will not cease to differ.

1693 Had God wished, He would have made you one nation, but He misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. You will be asked about what you used to do.

now look at this red part its bit confusing becoz if God misguide them then who is to blame?

738 He said, "Enter with the multitude of nations before you from humans and Jinn to the fire!" Every time a nation entered, it cursed its sister nation, until they are all gathered inside it; then the last of them says to the first "Our Lord, these are the ones who have misguided us, so give them double the retribution of the fire!" He replied "Each will receive double, but you do not know.

the ending verse is the climax of movie rotfl rotfl even in hell there are nations who blame eachother and still want other get double punishment ..hahahahahahahahaha oh my Gosh

good_logic

Yes brother , that dividing bit also applies,just like the uniting bit "GOD will work on the sincere hearts to unite them so they can become brothers and sisters".
Me,I like the "uniting" bit.
How about we let GOD decide?( OK, we have no choice!)
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

again you are coming from far side of moon..

its God who make sincere hearts ?
he make sincere whom he wish and he make un-sincere whom he wish yes

God bless you..

about the choice things its a myth not a perfect understandings you can drive from any scripture
he choose things for us.. he choose time, place, nation, face, parents for us...
even death

we have just choice inside the box and BOX of life and everything belong to him..

he created that box what you have to accept willingly or unwillignly ..

our choice is the slave of God will...

reel

they do have it now
and interestingly the interpretation of shabbir ahmed is totally on the teaching of ghulam ahmed pervaiz..

and its one of the popular quran alone translation.. he also reject miracles and jinns..

BTW my sweet sister the theme of my message is something else to ponder the same thing what i say to brother GL..

I believe people should keep their options open. Love can be found anywhere. But I didn't see how the examples you gave form analogy matches a marriage situation with a sectarian.

Thanks for the info on Pervaiz. But how many of his followers are using the Internet? I haven't seen one.

imrankhawaja

I believe people should keep their options open. Love can be found anywhere. But I didn't see how the examples you gave form analogy matches a marriage situation with a sectarian.

hmm thats what i m trying to say marry with whoever you wish regardless of label race nation..
LOVE is the key (pure love)

coz if we try to find a quran alone wife its like to find a grain in sand of desert.. hmm

Thanks for the info on Pervaiz. But how many of his followers are using the Internet? I haven't seen one.

they are not different than other sect of God alone people so they never consider themself as "pervazi" its a label given to them by sunni people..

and i think there are lot of members in this forum who like the teaching of pervazi.. (and some of them follow it too)
the recent example of pervaizi teaching is shabbir ahmed interpretation

and moreover when i was declaring the God alone people it meant to be the one who follow only quran..

its a law of universe that grows from singularity to multiplication
same law apply to quran alone and rest of the nations .. like expanding universe..

but when God talk about a system its peacemaking , although from time to time God is telling us what actual system is acceptable infront of him.. he knows we will not be able to make us all one nation.. (how hard we try)

examples are infront of you

parvez_mushtaq

Salam everyone )

I don't know if the question has been asked before. Do you feel like you have to defend your self from all sides? Ignorant non-Muslims think you are some kind of extremist associated with Salafi Muslims and Wahabbis, etc. and some Muslims call you "kaffir", "munafiq" whenever you don't agree with them. But that is online. I have never challenged anyone in real life. How to deal with such people if you ever want to present your views to others (both online and in real life)? It does not seem like we will outnumber them anytime soon. Only God knows. I don't want to be associated with these versions of Islam, but sometimes I get doubts that maybe I am just a hypocrite like they say. I'm new to this. The only thing I have noticed is that these Muslims usually shut up if you only quote the Quran as they cannot argue with God. My soon to be husband insha'Allah is a Sunni traditional Muslim, but he is tolerant and often agree with me as I'm taking things slow with him about my beliefs. I just fear as being the only hadith rejecter among the Muslims in town that I know of I will have to just nod my head at what they say. What are your experience and don't you feel all alone if you are the only one you know of in your area?

firstly ,i don't understand why you want to make a war with them .why you want to announce that you belong to another new kind of sect called "quran alone" .accept them ,be with them and of course you have answered your question which i have underlined ,just produce proof from quran that is enough to shut their mouths
Marry that sunni and live happily .it is in the hands of ALLAH subhanavatala don't think too much just stick to basics which is ,of course quran and pl pl pl don't argue .

A_Submitter

yes exactly dnt marry secterian .. but i think she dnt have much options..

look at this..

sector God alone/quran alone..

code beleivers(submittors) vs non code beleivers(monothiests)

code beleivers is divided into two more sectors

i.e the one who beleive verses 128 and 129 is a part of scripture
another one reject it with all his efforts ..

God alone believers are divided into more sects than code beleivers..

i.e different person have different interpretation in which one is disagree with other ..

like the issue of salat(timings), fastings, some of them even make their own sects.. like pervezi(the followers of ghulam ahmed pervaiz)

the big difference between pervezi and God aloner

pervezi believe there is no miracles and jinss exist
God aloner believe its exist

even in this forum all wiseone /burnouts have different opinions

i.e some people believe polygamy is not allowed in any case apart from wars condition
some people believe polygmy is allowed to both women and man even sex outside the wedlock is permissible and do as much as u can..

some of them beleive in prophethood seal but mistakenly believe messengers are continue to come
some of them beleive messenger is by default a prophet hence no more prophet or messenger..

list is quite long..

so my brother let me know which one of them is correct..

lets make it this way , which is obviously my way..

peacemaker for a peacemaker, troublemaker for a troublemaker

either he/she is from sunni, shia, quranalone, god alone,code beleiver, christian, jew, buddist, hindu, or any tom dick harry.. (required attitude = peace)

i forget to tell you asian women hate black people even if they are muslim
if a quran alone black muslim want to marry with quran alone asian women she preffer to do suicide O0

look internal racism, which is not by God but its built inside human being..

and same goes with rich and poor... group

and yeh one very important thing... i forget to mention..
there is a soft corner of LGBT in quran alone community some of them reject it some of them accept it..
what a wonderful exception and offer , its called the westernise view of quran alone sector
so marriage between same sex is also a issue in quran alone community

I think you got some things wrong.

A submitter is a Muslim.
A believer is the other word, I think it's Mumin?

The minimum requirement is to be a submitter, or one who has submitted to God, depends how its translated. Theres a verse that God has named such.

A monotheist is the belief that theres one god, while a polytheist in many.

Those code 19 followers form their own sect because of one huge misunderstanding of a verse.

The Quran aloners, it sounds like a sect, but they dont want to belong to a sect. This name I believe was made by sectarians to distinguish those who reject hadith, calling them ahle Quran or something.

Then we have God aloners, which was made to distinguish from the sectarians who call themselves Muslims, which they arent.

The correct system and terms are the following

Submission-Islam
Submitters/those who have submitted-Muslims, Muslimeen in Arabic, and not the code 19 sect.
Believers-Mumineen? I dont know correct Arabic term.

We should begin calling the sectarians something else than Muslims, such as sectarians or hadithfollowers or devilworshippers.
We are the true Muslims while they are the fake ones. We shouldnt change what God has named us to distinguish from them. I believe hadith followers is the best term to describe fake Muslims who chant they are Muslims while following the books of the devil.

Salam

es

Marry that sunni and live happily .it is in the hands of ALLAH subhanavatala don't think too much just stick to basics which is ,of course quran and pl pl pl don't argue .

Surely if she marries him, it just gives her a license to manipulate him and become "dominant" and "independent" herself. Are you really encouraging such behaviour.

es

I think you got some things wrong.

A submitter is a Muslim.
A believer is the other word, I think it's Mumin?

The minimum requirement is to be a submitter, or one who has submitted to God, depends how its translated. Theres a verse that God has named such.

A monotheist is the belief that theres one god, while a polytheist in many.

Those code 19 followers form their own sect because of one huge misunderstanding of a verse.

The Quran aloners, it sounds like a sect, but they dont want to belong to a sect. This name I believe was made by sectarians to distinguish those who reject hadith, calling them ahle Quran or something.

Then we have God aloners, which was made to distinguish from the sectarians who call themselves Muslims, which they arent.

The correct system and terms are the following

Submission-Islam
Submitters/those who have submitted-Muslims, Muslimeen in Arabic, and not the code 19 sect.
Believers-Mumineen? I dont know correct Arabic term.

We should begin calling the sectarians something else than Muslims, such as sectarians or hadithfollowers or devilworshippers.
We are the true Muslims while they are the fake ones. We shouldnt change what God has named us to distinguish from them. I believe hadith followers is the best term to describe fake Muslims who chant they are Muslims while following the books of the devil.

Salam

Life's too short for all this hatred. I hope you realise that soon.

imrankhawaja

I think you got some things wrong.

A submitter is a Muslim.
A believer is the other word, I think it's Mumin?

i think submitter is a poor defination of muslim it should be peacemaker
becoz if you fit this defination in quran it will not give confusing meanings on some other parts of scripture..

4913 O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Ever-aware.

God judge by hearts regardless of nation label /race..
an he is ever aware regarding his creation
infront of him honorable is the one who is righteous

btw the topic was of marriages in interfaith , i think LAW did not put any restriction in marriage
so marrying a sunni is nothing wrong ..

Life's too short for all this hatred. I hope you realise that soon.

exactly
and we should not judge somebody , God alone knows whats inside the chests..(God will judge by heart) and according to the ability of understanding
whatever label u born with..
life is about doing / making love..

u make me remember one of the saying.. someone said

i dnt how people manage to get time of hating when we have much shortage of time for doing love fully ..

God bless you both

reel

hmm thats what i m trying to say marry with whoever you wish regardless of label race nation..
LOVE is the key (pure love)

coz if we try to find a quran alone wife its like to find a grain in sand of desert.. hmm

they are not different than other sect of God alone people so they never consider themself as "pervazi" its a label given to them by sunni people..

and i think there are lot of members in this forum who like the teaching of pervazi.. (and some of them follow it too)
the recent example of pervaizi teaching is shabbir ahmed interpretation

and moreover when i was declaring the God alone people it meant to be the one who follow only quran..

its a law of universe that grows from singularity to multiplication
same law apply to quran alone and rest of the nations .. like expanding universe..

but when God talk about a system its peacemaking , although from time to time God is telling us what actual system is acceptable infront of him.. he knows we will not be able to make us all one nation.. (how hard we try)

examples are infront of you

If we take reality into account west has more Quran alone people than any other place https//www.reddit.com/r/Quraniyoon/comments/6fknyu/ranks_of_countries_most_faithful_to_islamic/

If you want to search for one in the desert you will have to go to Israel as given in the chart.

If sunnis are calling them pervezi why should we contribute to it? Let's call them Muslim then? I read his stuff. What I have seen is that the man said exactly what I concluded also. That doesn't mean I am a pervezi. The whole thing ends up with only one concept that people in different places, from different times have got the same message about Islam when they actually made an effort to let themselves think and understand what God is trying to tell us.

Same can be told about Dr Shabir though I take his stuffs with a grain of salt.

imrankhawaja

If you want to search for one in the desert you will have to go to Israel as given in the chart.

If sunnis are calling them pervezi why should we contribute to it? Let's call them Muslim then? I read his stuff. What I have seen is that the man said exactly what I concluded also. That doesn't mean I am a pervezi. The whole thing ends up with only one concept that people in different places, from different times have got the same message about Islam when they actually made an effort to let themselves think and understand what God is trying to tell us.

Same can be told about Dr Shabir though I take his stuffs with a grain of salt.

actually i also listen ghulam ahmed some things he explain very perfectly
he was the first modern scholar who challange the authority of hadith
he co worked with founder of pakistan (muhammad ali jinnah)

do you notice i sometimes bring the issues regarding God will and laws of cause and effect
he handle that section very intelligently and logically(although not agree with all what he said)

but on the other hand he reject the miracles and existence of invisible being creation ..

thats how divide and rule play its role in any organisation what we say "parties"
when one party beleive in something and another party disbeleivng in same thing..

its only opinions that divide you from singularity..

interestingly he was also against the sects (so dnt worry you are not pervaizi lol)
but as we know some of his theories are not really accepted by main stream quran alone scholars like edip,layth and javed ahmed ghamidi..

about shabbir ahmed , he actually interpret quran metaphorically instead of literally sometimes the message get totally different than literal meanings when compare with other translators.. but i think that interpretation is also there due to a reason .. lot of his metaphors are masterpiece compared to daily life what everybody encounter..

the book is deep(37)

BOLD just curious to know why u specially refer israel ? its on the dangerous number 27 perfect cube lol

reel

actually i also listen ghulam ahmed some things he explain very perfectly
he was the first modern scholar who challange the authority of hadith
he co worked with founder of pakistan (muhammad ali jinnah)

do you notice i sometimes bring the issues regarding God will and laws of cause and effect
he handle that section very intelligently and logically(although not agree with all what he said)

but on the other hand he reject the miracles and existence of invisible being creation ..

I think I read his stuff also. I have to recheck. What did he say about invisible being creation? I don't fully reject the idea of miracles anymore. I did it in the middle, but then I have to reconsider.

thats how divide and rule play its role in any organisation what we say "parties"
when one party beleive in something and another party disbeleivng in same thing..

its only opinions that divide you from singularity..

Our disagreements are never a problem. There is always someone who comes to show us the right way when we are being in the wrong. But again, the wrong of ours does not lead to killing like it does in the sects and the more you will try to have a conversation about hadiths with a sectarian the more you will find yourself shivering. They have forgotten what is right and wrong. They'll accept anything bad just if you tell them "Prophet said". These are some of the things I have been told

I will swear that hadiths are words of Prophet if after that you accept our sectarian religion.
So what if the Prophet cut off hands and legs of the people?
If the consensus of the ulema is that he married a kid then I will stick to that.

3 sectarians on our subreddit deleted their usernames after we showed them that what they thought they had in the hadiths were not exactly there. You can also see the adnan guy's fraud questions in that video and under the comment section, sectarians are going "yahoo". None checked whether answers to his questions actually were truly in the hadiths the way they think Islam is. So the divide between us and them is extremely different. Apparently, even nonMuslims begin to understand the core problem of Islam when you discuss it with them. It is something absent in the conversation between us and sectarians.

I must also say that they defend the hadiths without actually reading them. They copy everything they heard from the mullahs.

interestingly he was also against the sects (so dnt worry you are not pervaizi lol)
but as we know some of his theories are not really accepted by main stream quran alone scholars like edip,layth and javed ahmed ghamidi..

about shabbir ahmed , he actually interpret quran metaphorically instead of literally sometimes the message get totally different than literal meanings when compare with other translators.. but i think that interpretation is also there due to a reason .. lot of his metaphors are masterpiece compared to daily life what everybody encounter..

the book is deep(37)

Well, no one can be 100% accurate. Times are different. Much depends on the progress of the knowledge and understanding.

A_Submitter

i think submitter is a poor defination of muslim it should be peacemaker
becoz if you fit this defination in quran it will not give confusing meanings on some other parts of scripture..

4913 O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Ever-aware.

God judge by hearts regardless of nation label /race..
an he is ever aware regarding his creation
infront of him honorable is the one who is righteous

btw the topic was of marriages in interfaith , i think LAW did not put any restriction in marriage
so marrying a sunni is nothing wrong ..

exactly
and we should not judge somebody , God alone knows whats inside the chests..(God will judge by heart) and according to the ability of understanding
whatever label u born with..
life is about doing / making love..

u make me remember one of the saying.. someone said

i dnt how people manage to get time of hating when we have much shortage of time for doing love fully ..

God bless you both

Here, the requirement isnt for a polytheist to just leave polytheism, but to become a believer to marry a believer. This is hint nr 1. A sectarian isnt a believer

2221 And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe; for a
believing servant is better than a polytheist, even if she is pleasing
to you. And do not give in marriage to the male polytheists until
they believe; for a believing servant is better than a polytheist,
even if he is pleasing to you. These invite to the Fire, while God is
inviting to Paradise and forgiveness by His consent. He clarifies
His revelations for the people that they may remember.

Hint nr 2. Women are not to be with rejecters, and men arent to keep disbelieving women. Also, its directled to believers...

6010 O you who believe, if the believing females come emigrating to
you, then you shall test them. God is fully aware of their belief.
Thus, if you establish that they are believers, then you shall not
return them to the rejecters. They are no longer permissible for
one another. And return the dowries that were paid. And there
is no sin upon you to marry them, if you have paid their dowries
to them. And do not keep disbelieving wives, and ask back what
dowries you paid. And let them ask back what dowries they had
paid. Such is the judgment of God; He judges between you. God
is Knowledgeable, Wise.

So from this we get that believers are for believers.

OnlyOneGod

Salam everyone )

I don't know if the question has been asked before. Do you feel like you have to defend your self from all sides? Ignorant non-Muslims think you are some kind of extremist associated with Salafi Muslims and Wahabbis, etc. and some Muslims call you "kaffir", "munafiq" whenever you don't agree with them. But that is online. I have never challenged anyone in real life. How to deal with such people if you ever want to present your views to others (both online and in real life)? It does not seem like we will outnumber them anytime soon. Only God knows. I don't want to be associated with these versions of Islam, but sometimes I get doubts that maybe I am just a hypocrite like they say. I'm new to this. The only thing I have noticed is that these Muslims usually shut up if you only quote the Quran as they cannot argue with God. My soon to be husband insha'Allah is a Sunni traditional Muslim, but he is tolerant and often agree with me as I'm taking things slow with him about my beliefs. I just fear as being the only hadith rejecter among the Muslims in town that I know of I will have to just nod my head at what they say. What are your experience and don't you feel all alone if you are the only one you know of in your area?

Although I'm no expert but just my two cents. It is usually logical to NOT make yourself a target of ridicule and maybe outright violence within your family, if you suppress your true feelings when dealing with a segment of society that might find such views to be a type of apostasy from Islam. You are in a delicate situation, better not to expose your mindset so openly without understanding the consequences they might entail while living within YOUR family grouping. As per the Sunnis even the early Muslims hid their beliefs until they became a bigger force that could deal with the aftermath. Try to avoid conflict, other than that God knows whats in your heart.

imrankhawaja

Here, the requirement isnt for a polytheist to just leave polytheism, but to become a believer to marry a believer. This is hint nr 1. A sectarian isnt a believer

2221 And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe; for a
believing servant is better than a polytheist, even if she is pleasing
to you. And do not give in marriage to the male polytheists until
they believe; for a believing servant is better than a polytheist,
even if he is pleasing to you. These invite to the Fire, while God is
inviting to Paradise and forgiveness by His consent. He clarifies
His revelations for the people that they may remember.

Hint nr 2. Women are not to be with rejecters, and men arent to keep disbelieving women. Also, its directled to believers...

So from this we get that believers are for believers.

peace brother , as i stated earlier no need of getting hints when something author already cleared in the scripture.. look at this verse now please..

55 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent females from those who are believers, and the independent females from those who have been given the Book before you, if you have given them their dowries, to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.

no hints in this verse but a clear permission of 2 catagories

1 believers
2 those who have been given book before(i.e christians,jews, and all those religions who followed abraham and noah)..

this rules out everything..

but again , advise must be taken ,

peacemaker for a peacemaker
criminal for a criminal
dishonest for a dishonest
porn actress for a porn actor
film actor for a film actress
scientist for a scientist
doctor for a doctor
poor for a poor
rich for a rich
western culture women for a western culture boy
eastern culture women for a eastern culture boy
cheater for a cheater...

if you mix the pattern of (compatibilty) then possibly there will be less chances that you guys get along with each other for long time..

its simple and easy..