Quran on mountains???contradiction?

Amra94

Guys, is music really prohibited in Quran?(

No

http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/music-singing-forbidden.htm

imrankhawaja

david was a singer too
mountains and birds give him beats while he was singing

MaryK

Thank youu. I have one more question, why in Quran its says heaven and earth were one thing? Its not said anywhere in the bing bang theory

imrankhawaja

scientific big bang and quranic 2130 are two different things..

same like darwin theory of evolution and quranic evolution are two different things..

make sure theories are just theories .. better theory supercede another theory untill something become proven fact..

Anoushirvan

Why in Quran it says that mountains are immovable when they do move as the result of tectonics??

Indeed, Qur'an claims a lot of facts about natural phenomenas that we know today being scientifically not accurate to say the best, or even simply wrong.

It most probably reflects what people believed at the time of the 7th century.
Furthermore, had Qur'an claimed a fact that was supposed to be false in the 7th century but known to be true today, people wouldn't have understood.

In fact the core mistake is to believe that when Qur'an speaks about mountains, it does so to explain what are mountains to ignorant people in order they exalt Allah's majesty.

But Qur'an is not a book to exalt Allah, it is a book of guidance to establish the deen and an argument thereof.

Therefore mountains are a metaphorical argument to advocate the need of theological constructions that link together the Earth and the Heavens, i.e. the secular power on the land and the spiritual power in the minds.
When it says that mountains are anchors on the Earth so that it does not shake, it means that a firm theological construction is necessary in order for a secular power to be stable.

As opposed to mountains, we have nahar, torrents that chide and whirls in all directions, leading to confusion and unstability.

huruf

For some eople the Qur'an must be wrong no matter what. The world would crumble for them if the Qur'an is right. They cover their ignorance giing the Qur'an fake praise while at the same time they attribute to it what it does nto say. They want to be the ones that fix the value of everything, including God and God's will and deeds.

Salaam

good_logic

Peace Anoushirvan.
Again I find your arguments illogical and baseless in my opinion for the following reasons

you say ,quote
But Qur'an is not a book to exalt Allah, it is a book of guidance to establish the deen and an argument thereof.

If it is a book of guidance ,how come you are also claiming it gives you false information and unscientific ones?
You are contradicting yourself here, quoteQur'an claims a lot of facts about natural phenomenas that we know today being scientifically not accurate to say the best, or even simply wrong
If it is a book of guidance it cannot tell you lies or mislead you,can it?

2)And when you say,quoteQur'an claims a lot of facts about natural phenomenas that we know today being scientifically not accurate to say the best, or even simply wrong.
List your evidence ,or own the statement "according to your understanding". Do not make false assumptions about Qoran without solid evidence.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

its interesting to know .. how some people manage to make other fools..
but in reality they are foolish (they are making themselves fool)

example when a criminal change his getup to dodge police , but police already got his every getup in advance..

another example when somebody change the name and label in this forum but suddenly members realise actually who he is...

and when you ask them to bring the evidence for the matter they will not provide you any evidence or they will divert the discussion somewhere else at that time their "anger" is worth pondering .. police

Anoushirvan

Peace good logic,

you say ,quote
But Qur'an is not a book to exalt Allah, it is a book of guidance to establish the deen and an argument thereof.

If it is a book of guidance ,how come you are also claiming it gives you false information and unscientific ones?
You are contradicting yourself here, quoteQur'an claims a lot of facts about natural phenomenas that we know today being scientifically not accurate to say the best, or even simply wrong
If it is a book of guidance it cannot tell you lies or mislead you,can it?

I wrote it is a book of guidance to establish the deen. The deen is a social system, the Law as it said in Judaism.

I didn't write "it is a book of guidance to establish scientific facts".
If you read Qur'an as a book to establish scientific facts, of course, you will be misguided.
It is the same as people who read the Bible to establish scientific facts.

We can read above people claiming that if there is a misalignment between what Qur'an says and what science says, they will give credit to Qur'an.
My father, though a mathematician, was of the same mind he refused some scientific facts in physics because according to his own understanding, they contradict Qur'an.

Such an attitude is no more than obscurantism and a community that follows that path is not going to be successful.

Going back to the idea that mountains are firm anchors so that the Earth doesn't shake, I don't mind if people of the 7th century believed it to be the truth. Therefore, it was easy for them to understand the metaphor that lied behind this idea.

Now in the 21st century, geology teaches us that mountains are not anchors to avoid Earth shaking. Mountains are the place where tectonic plates collide, and this collision generates earthquakes.
But we are still able to understand the metaphor as used in the 7th century.

And let's assume that one scientific theory confirms some passage in Qur'an, then science is not bound to any quranic agenda. One theory that is best corroborated (by experience and scientific facts) today will be dismissed later.
So if you have stated that the current best corroborated theory was predicted by Qur'an centuries ago, then this theory is proven to be wrong, what will you do about Qur'an ? Twist again the meaning of the verses to reflect the new corroborated theory ?
How ridiculous it would be.

It's simpler and more honest to accept that Qur'an was written in accordance to the general state of knowledge of the 7th century, then focus on the goal of Qur'an, that is the path to establish the deen.

2)And when you say,quoteQur'an claims a lot of facts about natural phenomenas that we know today being scientifically not accurate to say the best, or even simply wrong.
List your evidence ,or own the statement "according to your understanding". Do not make false assumptions about Qoran without solid evidence.

This is a recurring topic of discussion in forums and in this section.

I'll list a few ones, as examples.

Besides mountains, we have

Astronomy

41.12 . Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate ; and we decked the nether heaven with lamps , and rendered it inviolable . That is the measuring of the Mighty , the Knower .

67.3 . Who hath created seven heavens in harmony . Thou canst see no fault in the Beneficent One ' s creation ; then look again Canst thou see any rifts?
67.4 . Then look again and yet again , thy sight will return unto thee weakened and made dim .
67.5 . And verily We have beatified the world ' s heaven with lamps , and We have made them missiles for the devils , and for them We have prepared the doom of flame .

71.15 . See ye not how Allah hath created seven heavens in harmony ,
71.16 . And hath made the moon a light therein , and made the sun a lamp?

Here we have a problem. The lamps, i.e. the stars, are placed in the lowest heaven. The moon is also placed among the seven heavens. So either the moon is in the same heaven as the stars and this is false, or it is in a heaven above the lowest heaven, and this is even more false.

Biology

86.5 . So let man consider from what he is created .
86.6 . He is created from a gushing fluid
86.7 . That issued from between the loins and ribs .

Of course, the fluid in question is not issued from between the loins and ribs.

23.14 . Then fashioned We the drop a clot , then fashioned We the clot a little lump , then fashioned We the little lump bones , then clothed the bones with flesh , and then produced it another creation . So blessed be Allah , the Best of Creators!

So according to Qur'an, bones come first, then flesh.
Modern embryology sees the converse https//embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/index.php/Carnegie_stage_table
Ossification starts at week 7, after flesh.

16.66 . And lo! in the cattle there is a lesson for you . We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies , from betwixt the refuse and the blood , pure milk palatable to the drinkers .

So according to Qur'an, milk is produced between excretion and blood. Inaccurate to the best, since milk is produced by mammary glands which have nothing to do with excretion.

huruf

Using translations to verify Qur'an is no good. Translators are not God, they pick, just as the poster, what they can capture with their limited minds. Trying to reduce God and his words to their onw limited mind they will get stuck forever.

The original is the only thing tht would do if somebbody is rwally willing to get something useful.

Using translations is bad faith in tricky things like what has been learnt through ages, it shows the poster's will to find fault with Qur'an by hook or crook. Never inthings like that the translators know. The most they can do their best guess.

And the poster all stumbles on the same stone that tanslators, thinking that the male is the origin of everything and the only interesting starting point for everything.

In this very forum a poster brought a much better translation for one of the ayas the poster of this last attack on Qur'an has ben able to pick up to discredit the Qur'an.

Finally all the sense of having this forum on Qur'an only revolveds on translations and interpretation of the Qur'an and the very founded reason for us to want ta much better grasp on it There is no need for anybody coming now tho evangelize us in the hadithized interpretations handed down.

Salaam

Novice

Going back to the idea that mountains are firm anchors so that the Earth doesn't shake, I don't mind if people of the 7th century believed it to be the truth. Therefore, it was easy for them to understand the metaphor that lied behind this idea.

Now in the 21st century, geology teaches us that mountains are not anchors to avoid Earth shaking. Mountains are the place where tectonic plates collide, and this collision generates earthquakes.
But we are still able to understand the metaphor as used in the 7th century.

Peace Anoushirvan

Mountains do maintain isostatic balance of this earth. To get a very generalized idea please hit the link below.

https//www.cliffsnotes.com/study-guides/geology/inside-the-earth/isostatic-equilibrium

Like huruf wrote, original is original and translations cannot replace it. Please reflect on all the ayats you mentioned and take help from many posts on this forum addressing such issues. You will get light by the mercy of our Rubb.

hawk99

Approach to something and opinions of things carry
their own weight and reveal how we feel or understand a certain subject.
Anoushirvan judging by your posts you feel negatively towards the Quran,
why not just say you come to a negative conclusion about the Quran!
For me Quran is always correct, and Allah is all knowing, see how I reveal
myself about the Quran.

peace

Anoushirvan

Peace Novice,

Mountains do maintain isostatic balance of this earth. To get a very generalized idea please hit the link below.

https//www.cliffsnotes.com/study-guides/geology/inside-the-earth/isostatic-equilibrium

Like huruf wrote, original is original and translations cannot replace it. Please reflect on all the ayats you mentioned and take help from many posts on this forum addressing such issues. You will get light by the mercy of our Rubb.

The link you posted doesn't really say that mountains do maintain isostatic balance. Or maybe you alluded to this paragraph ?

Some geologists believe that plate subduction generates large bodies of magma that adhere to the bottom of the continental mass and cool, locally thickening the crust. In order to maintain isostasy, the crust would then have to rise through the formation of a mountain range. This idea has not been widely accepted, however.

So, by the last sentence, the idea that mountains do maintain isostatic balance is just a theory that is not widely accepted.
Therefore, if it is proven wrong by some later discoveries, what will you do ?

I know people in this forum try hard to match Qur'an translation with modern discoveries in order to prove that Qur'an is the exact word of God.
This is called concordism.
Some Christians do the same with the Bible.

But concordism is a stupidity.

As I said, science is not bound to any biblical or quranic agenda. So your big effort to match translation with modern science is likely to be nullified in the future if current theories are disproved.
It diverts attention from the real message carried by Qur'an, and this real message is about pitfalls and trap when establishing the deen, not about teaching science to polytheists or God-unaware people.

In a sense, concordism is the new tool of Shaytan in order to divert Qur'an only people from the true quranic message.

Anoushirvan

Approach to something and opinions of things carry
their own weight and reveal how we feel or understand a certain subject.
Anoushirvan judging by your posts you feel negatively towards the Quran,
why not just say you come to a negative conclusion about the Quran!
For me Quran is always correct, and Allah is all knowing, see how I reveal
myself about the Quran.

Hawk99, you get me wrong. I don't feel negatively towards Qur'an.

I feel negatively towards readings that lead to obscurantism.

Among readings that lead to obscurantism, we have

Qur'an as divine endorsement of Sunna. This is traditional Islam, sunnism and shiism.
Qur'an as a divine book establishing a list of rituals. This is most quran-only approaches as well as traditional Islam
Seriously, why this fuss just for a list of rituals that differ from previous religions ?
This is degrading the status of Qur'an and taking God for an idiot.
Concordism. That is trying to match Qur'an understanding and translation with modern scientific discoveries.
Since science evolves and theories can be dismissed, then your efforts towards concordism will be nullified in the future.
Then either you will have to reject Qur'an at all, or refuse the new theory.

Novice

Peace Novice,

The link you posted doesn't really say that mountains do maintain isostatic balance. Or maybe you alluded to this paragraph ?

Here is a paragraph copied from the link I provided

Huge plates of crustal and upper mantle material (lithosphere) ?float? on more dense, plastically flowing rocks of the asthenosphere. The ?depth? to which a plate, or block of crust, sinks is a function of its weight and varies as the weight changes. This equilibrium, or balance, between blocks of crust and the underlying mantle is called isostasy. The taller a block of crust is (such as a mountainous region), the deeper it penetrates into the mantle because of its greater mass and weight. Isostasy occurs when each block settles into an equilibrium with the underlying mantle. Blocks of crust that are separated by faults will ?settle? at different elevations according to their relative mass (Figure ).

So, by the last sentence, the idea that mountains do maintain isostatic balance is just a theory that is not widely accepted.
Therefore, if it is proven wrong by some later discoveries, what will you do ?

I know people in this forum try hard to match Qur'an translation with modern discoveries in order to prove that Qur'an is the exact word of God.
This is called concordism.
Some Christians do the same with the Bible.

But concordism is a stupidity.

As I said, science is not bound to any biblical or quranic agenda. So your big effort to match translation with modern science is likely to be nullified in the future if current theories are disproved.
It diverts attention from the real message carried by Qur'an, and this real message is about pitfalls and trap when establishing the deen, not about teaching science to polytheists or God-unaware people.

In a sense, concordism is the new tool of Shaytan in order to divert Qur'an only people from the true quranic message.

Quran is a book for all times and its understanding will change with increase in knowledge. Quran is the Truth from our Rabb and does not need support from our evolving knowledge. But our understanding is dependent on our level of knowledge.

Peace

good_logic

Peace All.
It appears so far that Anoushirvan s links and understanding of false translations is good evidence.
Everybody else's links and understanding is false
His mind is made up folks,I am just dumbfounded why he says he believes in Qoran or at least he does not feel nagatively towards it? quote
Hawk99, you get me wrong. I don't feel negatively towards Qur'an.

If I were you brother and a book was the way you are describing Qoran,I will leave well alone altogether. I will not even bother to
discuss its contents with others.
GOD bless .
Peace.

Anoushirvan

Here is a paragraph copied from the link I provided

Huge plates of crustal and upper mantle material (lithosphere) ?float? on more dense, plastically flowing rocks of the asthenosphere. The ?depth? to which a plate, or block of crust, sinks is a function of its weight and varies as the weight changes. This equilibrium, or balance, between blocks of crust and the underlying mantle is called isostasy. The taller a block of crust is (such as a mountainous region), the deeper it penetrates into the mantle because of its greater mass and weight. Isostasy occurs when each block settles into an equilibrium with the underlying mantle. Blocks of crust that are separated by faults will ?settle? at different elevations according to their relative mass (Figure ).

Even with the part you have highlighted in red, it doesn't say that mountains do maintain isostatic balance.
Isostatic balance is actually a mere application of Archimedes' principle https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27_principle
Mountains are nothing to do with this.

Quran is a book for all times and its understanding will change with increase in knowledge. Quran is the Truth from our Rabb and does not need support from our evolving knowledge. But our understanding is dependent on our level of knowledge.

This approach doesn't make sense.
If you are dependant on science to increase your level of knowledge in order to understand Qur'an, then Qur'an is not clear at all, which contradicts a lot of verses in Qur'an that says it is clear.
Plus it renders Qur'an useless what good is it to try understanding Qur'an while knowledge is in science ? It's only a tentative to obsfuscate Qur'an and science.

If you are so dependant on science to understand Qur'an then science is at the same foot than hadiths.
Throw the hadiths by the door, they come back by the window...

good_logic

Peace Anoushirvan.
Let me commemt on this quote of yours,if I may

If you are dependant on science to increase your level of knowledge in order to understand Qur'an, then Qur'an is not clear at all, which contradicts a lot of verses in Qur'an that says it is clear.

Science is clear? How clear was it few decades ago? Does Science stay still? So how can you depend on something that keeps changing as l it is on an evolving course like you /me/all of us?. Where as Qoran it stays the same . It is the same book since it was revealed. So where does the credibility belong?

When you say Qoran is not clear,do you mean you/we/Science have not got the capacity yet to understand some of its verses?

Qoran says to all"Wait,the future belongs to GOD".
The problem with rushing ahead with our logic is leading to the wrong priority . Science is on a learning curve,still searching for truths. Qoran has brought you the truth over 1400 years ago! Will you recognise it?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

huruf

No, good logic, many will not recognize anything because they are already in love with themselves, their category, their superior minds, whatever. They already have their own god, and any other God must be subservient to that god they have. There is a Spanish verb and derivates which depicts that very literally and eloquently "endiosarse" "endiosamiento", "endiosado".

Those people are there to be admired themselves, not to distract attention towards other God which would prevent people from really paying attention to them.

Other than that, when people are "endiosados", they want abslutely, as a need, to reduce everything to their own size. Nothing should go beyond their own limitations. Anything that even hints at it, is nullified, is reconduced to the proper proportions which are the proportions of the "endiosado". Do not even attempt to explain to them, they are one million miles ahead of you and you are too little to know anything of anything, or to bear in mind anything you say, because you are just o dumb that you want to worship anything worthless, that is something which is not them.

There is no reasoning with that.

Salaam

hawk99

Hawk99, you get me wrong. I don't feel negatively towards Qur'an.

I feel negatively towards readings that lead to obscurantism.

Among readings that lead to obscurantism, we have

Qur'an as divine endorsement of Sunna. This is traditional Islam, sunnism and shiism.
Qur'an as a divine book establishing a list of rituals. This is most quran-only approaches as well as traditional Islam
Seriously, why this fuss just for a list of rituals that differ from previous religions ?
This is degrading the status of Qur'an and taking God for an idiot.
Concordism. That is trying to match Qur'an understanding and translation with modern scientific discoveries.
Since science evolves and theories can be dismissed, then your efforts towards concordism will be nullified in the future.
Then either you will have to reject Qur'an at all, or refuse the new theory.

Peace Anoushirvan,

I accept your explanation of obscurantism, however your conclusion
is not necessarily the only possible outcome. The Quran does not
in my opinion lead to the endorsement of the Sunna of Muhammad,
to the contrary, "the only Sunna to be adhered to is the Sunna of Allah"
As for those who do or believe otherwise shaytayn has led them astray.

As far as your point of view as it pertains to concordance I don't
view bringing together science and religion as a conspiracy but over
zealousness on the part of the authors to be taken with a grain of salt.

peace