Quran on mountains???contradiction?

Anoushirvan

Peace good logic,

you say ,quote
But Qur'an is not a book to exalt Allah, it is a book of guidance to establish the deen and an argument thereof.

If it is a book of guidance ,how come you are also claiming it gives you false information and unscientific ones?
You are contradicting yourself here, quoteQur'an claims a lot of facts about natural phenomenas that we know today being scientifically not accurate to say the best, or even simply wrong
If it is a book of guidance it cannot tell you lies or mislead you,can it?

I wrote it is a book of guidance to establish the deen. The deen is a social system, the Law as it said in Judaism.

I didn't write "it is a book of guidance to establish scientific facts".
If you read Qur'an as a book to establish scientific facts, of course, you will be misguided.
It is the same as people who read the Bible to establish scientific facts.

We can read above people claiming that if there is a misalignment between what Qur'an says and what science says, they will give credit to Qur'an.
My father, though a mathematician, was of the same mind he refused some scientific facts in physics because according to his own understanding, they contradict Qur'an.

Such an attitude is no more than obscurantism and a community that follows that path is not going to be successful.

Going back to the idea that mountains are firm anchors so that the Earth doesn't shake, I don't mind if people of the 7th century believed it to be the truth. Therefore, it was easy for them to understand the metaphor that lied behind this idea.

Now in the 21st century, geology teaches us that mountains are not anchors to avoid Earth shaking. Mountains are the place where tectonic plates collide, and this collision generates earthquakes.
But we are still able to understand the metaphor as used in the 7th century.

And let's assume that one scientific theory confirms some passage in Qur'an, then science is not bound to any quranic agenda. One theory that is best corroborated (by experience and scientific facts) today will be dismissed later.
So if you have stated that the current best corroborated theory was predicted by Qur'an centuries ago, then this theory is proven to be wrong, what will you do about Qur'an ? Twist again the meaning of the verses to reflect the new corroborated theory ?
How ridiculous it would be.

It's simpler and more honest to accept that Qur'an was written in accordance to the general state of knowledge of the 7th century, then focus on the goal of Qur'an, that is the path to establish the deen.

2)And when you say,quoteQur'an claims a lot of facts about natural phenomenas that we know today being scientifically not accurate to say the best, or even simply wrong.
List your evidence ,or own the statement "according to your understanding". Do not make false assumptions about Qoran without solid evidence.

This is a recurring topic of discussion in forums and in this section.

I'll list a few ones, as examples.

Besides mountains, we have

Astronomy

41.12 . Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate ; and we decked the nether heaven with lamps , and rendered it inviolable . That is the measuring of the Mighty , the Knower .

67.3 . Who hath created seven heavens in harmony . Thou canst see no fault in the Beneficent One ' s creation ; then look again Canst thou see any rifts?
67.4 . Then look again and yet again , thy sight will return unto thee weakened and made dim .
67.5 . And verily We have beatified the world ' s heaven with lamps , and We have made them missiles for the devils , and for them We have prepared the doom of flame .

71.15 . See ye not how Allah hath created seven heavens in harmony ,
71.16 . And hath made the moon a light therein , and made the sun a lamp?

Here we have a problem. The lamps, i.e. the stars, are placed in the lowest heaven. The moon is also placed among the seven heavens. So either the moon is in the same heaven as the stars and this is false, or it is in a heaven above the lowest heaven, and this is even more false.

Biology

86.5 . So let man consider from what he is created .
86.6 . He is created from a gushing fluid
86.7 . That issued from between the loins and ribs .

Of course, the fluid in question is not issued from between the loins and ribs.

23.14 . Then fashioned We the drop a clot , then fashioned We the clot a little lump , then fashioned We the little lump bones , then clothed the bones with flesh , and then produced it another creation . So blessed be Allah , the Best of Creators!

So according to Qur'an, bones come first, then flesh.
Modern embryology sees the converse https//embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/index.php/Carnegie_stage_table
Ossification starts at week 7, after flesh.

16.66 . And lo! in the cattle there is a lesson for you . We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies , from betwixt the refuse and the blood , pure milk palatable to the drinkers .

So according to Qur'an, milk is produced between excretion and blood. Inaccurate to the best, since milk is produced by mammary glands which have nothing to do with excretion.

huruf

Using translations to verify Qur'an is no good. Translators are not God, they pick, just as the poster, what they can capture with their limited minds. Trying to reduce God and his words to their onw limited mind they will get stuck forever.

The original is the only thing tht would do if somebbody is rwally willing to get something useful.

Using translations is bad faith in tricky things like what has been learnt through ages, it shows the poster's will to find fault with Qur'an by hook or crook. Never inthings like that the translators know. The most they can do their best guess.

And the poster all stumbles on the same stone that tanslators, thinking that the male is the origin of everything and the only interesting starting point for everything.

In this very forum a poster brought a much better translation for one of the ayas the poster of this last attack on Qur'an has ben able to pick up to discredit the Qur'an.

Finally all the sense of having this forum on Qur'an only revolveds on translations and interpretation of the Qur'an and the very founded reason for us to want ta much better grasp on it There is no need for anybody coming now tho evangelize us in the hadithized interpretations handed down.

Salaam

Novice

Going back to the idea that mountains are firm anchors so that the Earth doesn't shake, I don't mind if people of the 7th century believed it to be the truth. Therefore, it was easy for them to understand the metaphor that lied behind this idea.

Now in the 21st century, geology teaches us that mountains are not anchors to avoid Earth shaking. Mountains are the place where tectonic plates collide, and this collision generates earthquakes.
But we are still able to understand the metaphor as used in the 7th century.

Peace Anoushirvan

Mountains do maintain isostatic balance of this earth. To get a very generalized idea please hit the link below.

https//www.cliffsnotes.com/study-guides/geology/inside-the-earth/isostatic-equilibrium

Like huruf wrote, original is original and translations cannot replace it. Please reflect on all the ayats you mentioned and take help from many posts on this forum addressing such issues. You will get light by the mercy of our Rubb.

hawk99

Approach to something and opinions of things carry
their own weight and reveal how we feel or understand a certain subject.
Anoushirvan judging by your posts you feel negatively towards the Quran,
why not just say you come to a negative conclusion about the Quran!
For me Quran is always correct, and Allah is all knowing, see how I reveal
myself about the Quran.

peace

Anoushirvan

Peace Novice,

Mountains do maintain isostatic balance of this earth. To get a very generalized idea please hit the link below.

https//www.cliffsnotes.com/study-guides/geology/inside-the-earth/isostatic-equilibrium

Like huruf wrote, original is original and translations cannot replace it. Please reflect on all the ayats you mentioned and take help from many posts on this forum addressing such issues. You will get light by the mercy of our Rubb.

The link you posted doesn't really say that mountains do maintain isostatic balance. Or maybe you alluded to this paragraph ?

Some geologists believe that plate subduction generates large bodies of magma that adhere to the bottom of the continental mass and cool, locally thickening the crust. In order to maintain isostasy, the crust would then have to rise through the formation of a mountain range. This idea has not been widely accepted, however.

So, by the last sentence, the idea that mountains do maintain isostatic balance is just a theory that is not widely accepted.
Therefore, if it is proven wrong by some later discoveries, what will you do ?

I know people in this forum try hard to match Qur'an translation with modern discoveries in order to prove that Qur'an is the exact word of God.
This is called concordism.
Some Christians do the same with the Bible.

But concordism is a stupidity.

As I said, science is not bound to any biblical or quranic agenda. So your big effort to match translation with modern science is likely to be nullified in the future if current theories are disproved.
It diverts attention from the real message carried by Qur'an, and this real message is about pitfalls and trap when establishing the deen, not about teaching science to polytheists or God-unaware people.

In a sense, concordism is the new tool of Shaytan in order to divert Qur'an only people from the true quranic message.

Anoushirvan

Approach to something and opinions of things carry
their own weight and reveal how we feel or understand a certain subject.
Anoushirvan judging by your posts you feel negatively towards the Quran,
why not just say you come to a negative conclusion about the Quran!
For me Quran is always correct, and Allah is all knowing, see how I reveal
myself about the Quran.

Hawk99, you get me wrong. I don't feel negatively towards Qur'an.

I feel negatively towards readings that lead to obscurantism.

Among readings that lead to obscurantism, we have

Qur'an as divine endorsement of Sunna. This is traditional Islam, sunnism and shiism.
Qur'an as a divine book establishing a list of rituals. This is most quran-only approaches as well as traditional Islam
Seriously, why this fuss just for a list of rituals that differ from previous religions ?
This is degrading the status of Qur'an and taking God for an idiot.
Concordism. That is trying to match Qur'an understanding and translation with modern scientific discoveries.
Since science evolves and theories can be dismissed, then your efforts towards concordism will be nullified in the future.
Then either you will have to reject Qur'an at all, or refuse the new theory.

Novice

Peace Novice,

The link you posted doesn't really say that mountains do maintain isostatic balance. Or maybe you alluded to this paragraph ?

Here is a paragraph copied from the link I provided

Huge plates of crustal and upper mantle material (lithosphere) ?float? on more dense, plastically flowing rocks of the asthenosphere. The ?depth? to which a plate, or block of crust, sinks is a function of its weight and varies as the weight changes. This equilibrium, or balance, between blocks of crust and the underlying mantle is called isostasy. The taller a block of crust is (such as a mountainous region), the deeper it penetrates into the mantle because of its greater mass and weight. Isostasy occurs when each block settles into an equilibrium with the underlying mantle. Blocks of crust that are separated by faults will ?settle? at different elevations according to their relative mass (Figure ).

So, by the last sentence, the idea that mountains do maintain isostatic balance is just a theory that is not widely accepted.
Therefore, if it is proven wrong by some later discoveries, what will you do ?

I know people in this forum try hard to match Qur'an translation with modern discoveries in order to prove that Qur'an is the exact word of God.
This is called concordism.
Some Christians do the same with the Bible.

But concordism is a stupidity.

As I said, science is not bound to any biblical or quranic agenda. So your big effort to match translation with modern science is likely to be nullified in the future if current theories are disproved.
It diverts attention from the real message carried by Qur'an, and this real message is about pitfalls and trap when establishing the deen, not about teaching science to polytheists or God-unaware people.

In a sense, concordism is the new tool of Shaytan in order to divert Qur'an only people from the true quranic message.

Quran is a book for all times and its understanding will change with increase in knowledge. Quran is the Truth from our Rabb and does not need support from our evolving knowledge. But our understanding is dependent on our level of knowledge.

Peace

good_logic

Peace All.
It appears so far that Anoushirvan s links and understanding of false translations is good evidence.
Everybody else's links and understanding is false
His mind is made up folks,I am just dumbfounded why he says he believes in Qoran or at least he does not feel nagatively towards it? quote
Hawk99, you get me wrong. I don't feel negatively towards Qur'an.

If I were you brother and a book was the way you are describing Qoran,I will leave well alone altogether. I will not even bother to
discuss its contents with others.
GOD bless .
Peace.

Anoushirvan

Here is a paragraph copied from the link I provided

Huge plates of crustal and upper mantle material (lithosphere) ?float? on more dense, plastically flowing rocks of the asthenosphere. The ?depth? to which a plate, or block of crust, sinks is a function of its weight and varies as the weight changes. This equilibrium, or balance, between blocks of crust and the underlying mantle is called isostasy. The taller a block of crust is (such as a mountainous region), the deeper it penetrates into the mantle because of its greater mass and weight. Isostasy occurs when each block settles into an equilibrium with the underlying mantle. Blocks of crust that are separated by faults will ?settle? at different elevations according to their relative mass (Figure ).

Even with the part you have highlighted in red, it doesn't say that mountains do maintain isostatic balance.
Isostatic balance is actually a mere application of Archimedes' principle https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27_principle
Mountains are nothing to do with this.

Quran is a book for all times and its understanding will change with increase in knowledge. Quran is the Truth from our Rabb and does not need support from our evolving knowledge. But our understanding is dependent on our level of knowledge.

This approach doesn't make sense.
If you are dependant on science to increase your level of knowledge in order to understand Qur'an, then Qur'an is not clear at all, which contradicts a lot of verses in Qur'an that says it is clear.
Plus it renders Qur'an useless what good is it to try understanding Qur'an while knowledge is in science ? It's only a tentative to obsfuscate Qur'an and science.

If you are so dependant on science to understand Qur'an then science is at the same foot than hadiths.
Throw the hadiths by the door, they come back by the window...

good_logic

Peace Anoushirvan.
Let me commemt on this quote of yours,if I may

If you are dependant on science to increase your level of knowledge in order to understand Qur'an, then Qur'an is not clear at all, which contradicts a lot of verses in Qur'an that says it is clear.

Science is clear? How clear was it few decades ago? Does Science stay still? So how can you depend on something that keeps changing as l it is on an evolving course like you /me/all of us?. Where as Qoran it stays the same . It is the same book since it was revealed. So where does the credibility belong?

When you say Qoran is not clear,do you mean you/we/Science have not got the capacity yet to understand some of its verses?

Qoran says to all"Wait,the future belongs to GOD".
The problem with rushing ahead with our logic is leading to the wrong priority . Science is on a learning curve,still searching for truths. Qoran has brought you the truth over 1400 years ago! Will you recognise it?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

huruf

No, good logic, many will not recognize anything because they are already in love with themselves, their category, their superior minds, whatever. They already have their own god, and any other God must be subservient to that god they have. There is a Spanish verb and derivates which depicts that very literally and eloquently "endiosarse" "endiosamiento", "endiosado".

Those people are there to be admired themselves, not to distract attention towards other God which would prevent people from really paying attention to them.

Other than that, when people are "endiosados", they want abslutely, as a need, to reduce everything to their own size. Nothing should go beyond their own limitations. Anything that even hints at it, is nullified, is reconduced to the proper proportions which are the proportions of the "endiosado". Do not even attempt to explain to them, they are one million miles ahead of you and you are too little to know anything of anything, or to bear in mind anything you say, because you are just o dumb that you want to worship anything worthless, that is something which is not them.

There is no reasoning with that.

Salaam

hawk99

Hawk99, you get me wrong. I don't feel negatively towards Qur'an.

I feel negatively towards readings that lead to obscurantism.

Among readings that lead to obscurantism, we have

Qur'an as divine endorsement of Sunna. This is traditional Islam, sunnism and shiism.
Qur'an as a divine book establishing a list of rituals. This is most quran-only approaches as well as traditional Islam
Seriously, why this fuss just for a list of rituals that differ from previous religions ?
This is degrading the status of Qur'an and taking God for an idiot.
Concordism. That is trying to match Qur'an understanding and translation with modern scientific discoveries.
Since science evolves and theories can be dismissed, then your efforts towards concordism will be nullified in the future.
Then either you will have to reject Qur'an at all, or refuse the new theory.

Peace Anoushirvan,

I accept your explanation of obscurantism, however your conclusion
is not necessarily the only possible outcome. The Quran does not
in my opinion lead to the endorsement of the Sunna of Muhammad,
to the contrary, "the only Sunna to be adhered to is the Sunna of Allah"
As for those who do or believe otherwise shaytayn has led them astray.

As far as your point of view as it pertains to concordance I don't
view bringing together science and religion as a conspiracy but over
zealousness on the part of the authors to be taken with a grain of salt.

peace

Anoushirvan

Peace good logic,

Peace Anoushirvan.
Let me commemt on this quote of yours,if I may

If you are dependant on science to increase your level of knowledge in order to understand Qur'an, then Qur'an is not clear at all, which contradicts a lot of verses in Qur'an that says it is clear.

Science is clear? How clear was it few decades ago? Does Science stay still? So how can you depend on something that keeps changing as l it is on an evolving course like you /me/all of us?.

This is exactly what I was trying to explain to you and Novice since a few messages, but it looks like you are misreading me.
You are depending on science, here geology, to understand Qur'an.
This is flawed of course, since science is evolving.

Where as Qoran it stays the same . It is the same book since it was revealed. So where does the credibility belong?

Of course Qur'an stays the same, like Les Mis?rables of Victor Hugo.
Nay, quranic text we have today was frozen in 1923 by Al-Azhar whereas Les Mis?rables have never changed since they were published.

And Newton's theory was described in his book Principiae Mathematicae, that will stay like this forever. Yet, Newton's theory has been deprecated by newer theories in the 20th century.

So this argument that Qur'an is superior to science because it stays the same is flawed.

When you say Qoran is not clear,do you mean you/we/Science have not got the capacity yet to understand some of its verses?

You keep misreading me and skip some parts of what I wrote.
I wrote "If you are dependant on science to increase your level of knowledge in order to understand Qur'an, then Qur'an is not clear at all".

Let's face it you should be able to understand Qur'an without having to study geology.
If you need to study what is isostatic balance to understand some verses in Qur'an then Qur'an is not clear for you. Don't try to hide yourself behind hypothetical translation flaws.

The only external source of knowledge that is explicitely mentioned in Qur'an is the knowledge of Bible (that includes Talmud and Midrash) by rabbins.
And in my understanding, most of Qur'an is pretty clear, provided you let it explains what it has to say.

There are few key words for which correct meaning has indeed been lost Rabb, salat, zakah, sujud, islam, iman...If you don't understand them correctly, then you don't understand Qur'an.

But not the complete text.
All this fuss raised about false translations is mostly bullshit and smoke cloud, except for a few key verses.

I'm capable to read Qur'an in Arabic and the translations I gave above don't have significant flaws.

Qoran says to all"Wait,the future belongs to GOD".
The problem with rushing ahead with our logic is leading to the wrong priority . Science is on a learning curve,still searching for truths. Qoran has brought you the truth over 1400 years ago! Will you recognise it?

Please give me a single scientific discovery that was done by a careful reading of Qur'an.
I know none of them.

On the contrary, you keep running after science to explain you how mountains were created in order to adjust your understanding of Qur'an.

And by the way, science doesn't search truth. Science searches to understand the reality that is accessible by our senses and their extensions, i.e. measure instruments.

Anoushirvan

Peace Anoushirvan,

I accept your explanation of obscurantism, however your conclusion
is not necessarily the only possible outcome. The Quran does not
in my opinion lead to the endorsement of the Sunna of Muhammad,
to the contrary, "the only Sunna to be adhered to is the Sunna of Allah"
As for those who do or believe otherwise shaytayn has led them astray.

Peace hawk99, I agree.
I didn't say that Qur'an leads to the endorsement of the Sunna of Muhammad. I said traditional islam, i.e. sunnism and shiism, believe it does. (I'm a former sunni, I know that).

good_logic

Peace Anoushirvan.
I am not one of those that wants science to acknowledge Qoran or to prove anything about Qoran. I do not care whether Science does or not.
I follow Qoran because I am certain it is a message from our creator.I have a solid proof for that.

I try my best to study Qoran to try and lead my life according to the system of the One who created me and knows me inside out.
To be honest with you I only worry about my own neck,although I love people to ponder why they are here.

So,I know that each one of us is accountable for their own deeds and choices. I do not care or worry what anyone makes of Qoran.
For me Qoran is GOD s argument against the arrogant nafs of the unappreciative human being.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

hawk99

Peace hawk99, I agree.
I didn't say that Qur'an leads to the endorsement of the Sunna of Muhammad. I said traditional islam, i.e. sunnism and shiism, believe it does. (I'm a former sunni, I know that).

Peace Anoushirvan

I am also former Sunni, your criticism of the methodology of
translators, scholars and clerics is well founded, however I
think your conveyance is a difficult task from a position that
may cause the reader to repulse because it comes across
like you are criticizing the word of God even though you are
critiquing the translators, scholars and clerics!

This approach is easier for me, i.e., When the translators say..........
here is what the Quran is actually saying.............

handshake

peace

imrankhawaja

how funny it is ... rotfl rotfl yay yay rotfl rotfl

at first (question regarding science) people bring in their discussion for mocking God or quran..

in the end they say why are you adjusting quran with science..? rotfl ok once this elektro

why you ask a question regarding science.. ?

quran dnt need to prove itself with the help of science..
since you believe in science blindly so thats why we provide you things that talk about discoveries of science within last 200 years...

80% of the statements of quran are 100% correct
20% are neither correct nor wrong (due to weak human knowledge)

this 80% include not only science, but also prophecies , challenges , cause and effect examples..

POINT to ponder.. this verse give two things in one go.. lackness of water and abundance of water... with scientific discovery

it seems author intelligence is at perfectly supreme stage while delievering these verses as he already know some people gona claim things about God what they really dnt know..

2439 As for those who reject, their works are like a mirage in the desert. A thirsty person thinks it is water, until he reaches it, he finds it is nothing; and he finds God there and He pays him his due, and God is swift in judgment.

2440 Or like the darkness out in a deep ocean in the midst of violent waves, with waves upon waves and dark clouds. Darkness upon darkness, if he brings out his own hand, he could barely see it. For whomever God does not make a light, he will have no light.

interestingly author is actually telling about disbelievers and topic has nothing to do with science, but when he give the parables that belong to this world what we can test his wordings are more than excellence..

recently with the help of modern technology scientists find out there is no light in deep oceans... wow

this verse also advise for the one who is lightless by God and he will have no light whatsoever you bring infront of him..

Novice

This is exactly what I was trying to explain to you and Novice since a few messages, but it looks like you are misreading me.
You are depending on science, here geology, to understand Qur'an.
This is flawed of course, since science is evolving.

Quran is a book of guidance. It guides us how to spend our lives in this life. When there are some references that can be understood with any field of knowledge what is wrong with that. With changing level of knowledge if understanding of some verses changes that does not change anything about the guidance given in the Quran.

So this argument that Qur'an is superior to science because it stays the same is flawed.

You keep misreading me and skip some parts of what I wrote.
I wrote "If you are dependant on science to increase your level of knowledge in order to understand Qur'an, then Qur'an is not clear at all".

I don't think we need science to understand muhkamat which are the guidance to spend this life.

Let's face it you should be able to understand Qur'an without having to study geology.
If you need to study what is isostatic balance to understand some verses in Qur'an then Qur'an is not clear for you. Don't try to hide yourself behind hypothetical translation flaws.

Anyone can understand the guidance as per one's capacity without studying geology.

And in my understanding, most of Qur'an is pretty clear, provided you let it explains what it has to say.

There are mutashabihat in the Quran and their meanings will be different for different people at different times. As far as the guidance is concerned it remains same.

There are few key words for which correct meaning has indeed been lost Rabb, salat, zakah, sujud, islam, iman...If you don't understand them correctly, then you don't understand Qur'an.

Agreed.

Please give me a single scientific discovery that was done by a careful reading of Qur'an.
I know none of them.

Once again it is a book of guidance and it conveys the guidance perfectly. Scientific discoveries are human efforts to understand their surroundings.

On the contrary, you keep running after science to explain you how mountains were created in order to adjust your understanding of Qur'an.

We study science to satisfy our curiosity about the things around us and not to adjust the guidance in the Quran.

Peace

MaryK

Hey guys, could someone explain me this verse pleease, cos i dont quite get it
923
Believers, do not take your fathers and your brothers for your allies if they choose unbelief in preference to belief. Whosoever of you takes them as allies those are wrong-doers.

Noon_waalqalami

Hey guys, could someone explain me this verse pleease, cos i dont quite get it
923
Believers, do not take your fathers and your brothers for your allies if they choose unbelief in preference to belief. Whosoever of you takes them as allies those are wrong-doers.

Peace, it's about taking sides especially during conflict; family means nothing when they are in the wrong.

923 O you the ones believes ye of not take ye of fathers yours and brethren yours allies if prefer they of l-kuf'ra/the disregard over l-mni/the faith/trust and who makes allies them among you so those themselves the wrongdoing 924 say if be fathers yours and sons/children yours and brethren yours and spouses yours and relatives yours and wealth that have acquired ye of and commerce thou fearing decline its and housing thou content with ye it dearer to you from/besides the god and messenger his wajihdin/and striving in path his so wait ye of until brings the god by directive his and the god not guided the folk the disobedient

Thought the mountains issue was resolved; there is only one correct reading that makes sense?

anna/that
an/lest
inna/indeed
in/not
in/if

1615 and cast in the land rawsiya/firm peaks anna/that shake with you and rivers of and paths of that may you guided being

2130 do they not see the ones disregard they of anna/that the heavens and the land be dual sewn of so ripped we them dual and made we of from the water each thing live then so not believing
2131 and made we of in the land rawsiya/firm peaks anna/that shake with them and made we of therein wide/ravine of paths of perhaps they guided being

3110 creation of the heavens in other than/without columns thou seeing it and cast in the land rawsiya/firm peaks anna/that shake with you and dispersed therein from each creature and descends we of from the heaven/sky water so grew we of therein from each spouse/pair noble

https//s17.postimg.org/9od37ez0f/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch21v30-43.jpg