What Constitutes a Muslim?
-
Salaam Anwar,
You have to be damn good to translate Arabic thinking into English, as in salima being an active verb in Arabic but translating into English as a passive state.
I am not clear if you agreed or disagreed. In case you disagreed, then I have an example
Ana Salimtu min alkhatar means nothing dangerous happened to me and not necessarily because of my work. In case you agreed, then I thank you.
However Aslama also has meanings that have nothing to do with peace. It has the meanings o 'to quit/abandon, to give over and to salute.
Please give examples in sentences so that I can think and meditate on it some more. Please note that I wrote no harm and not peace.
Thanks Anwar for your response and I look forward to more. Salaam
Hussein
-
Aslam on its own as ?to submit?is a reflexive sense. Other ones like asbaha (to pass through morning) ah'sana (to become exellent or better) and others I would have to research. Im in the Domican republic right now and I cannot reach my grammar book. You can grab a Classical Arabic grammar book for yourself and there are given plenty of examples.
Salimtu is better rendered in Arabic as (I was safe). IT is passive like hazina (he was said), alima(he was discerning) and ghadiba(was angry). In Arabic they are considered active these are not things that you do, they are thinks that overtake you. Ahzana can mean ?he became said? or deemed someone else to be sad, like kadh-dhaba is to declare or think that something is false kadhib.
Please grab an extensive Classical Arabic grammar book and all this will be explained to you. This is not the Modern Arabic that you learn in school. You have to go out and research this Arabic. You intuitions do not work with this Arabic because this Arabic is foreign to you.
What you are doing is the same thing that scholars do which leads us to all of these deficient translations and understandings of the Koran and even the hadeeth.
Does anyone remember the debate about the age 40. Everyone was translating it as -when a man reaches forty he says ?. . . When understanding the grammar of Classical Arabic better renders it ?When a man reaches forty may he say . . .? I have seen time and time again how understanding the language of the Koran opens up our understanding of the Koran, even with the issue of ?beat your women.? Understanding Classical Arabic better allows us to understand that the word can mean ?to ignore?. I guess the burden is to hard to bear for the so called ?reformers?here to accept and learn Classical Arabic completely to render better understandings of the Koran. But this is the only way, and all of the Arabic speakers need to stop confusing the issue more with their own confusion about Arabic, believing that the Arabic that they learn in school is really Classical Arabic. It is not, nor do the books that you consult teach Classical Arabic. Look and think harder. You are still far from the mark and that is why you are still so confused.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam progod,
Thank you for responding to my note. However, I have some disagreements with you.
Progod wrote
Aslam on its own as ?to submit?is a reflexive sense
I disagree because Aslama needs a Mafool bihi that is either in the sentence or that is understood. The word that could stand on it's own to mean Submit is ISTASLAMA
ah'sana (to become exellent or better)
I also disagree because the verb means To make/do Good (To someone or something including oneself). What you wrote above is an adjective and not a verb. exapmles
ANA AHSAN MINKA adjective= I am better than you
ANA AHSANTU ILAIKA verb = I made/did good to youSalimtu is better rendered in Arabic as (I was safe).
I also disagree because the way you explained it you remove the sense that there was a possibility of harm. It is better to translate it as I became safe or I received no harm. The reason that I used the receive because clearly there is the Receive and deliver aspect in the derivatives of the root. As in
ASLAMTUKA AL KITAB which I will translate as I made you receive the book (with the sense that the book is intact and that I delivered it in an amicable manner. That is the no harm component)
Please grab an extensive Classical Arabic grammar book and all this will be explained to you. This is not the Modern Arabic that you learn in school. You have to go out and research this Arabic. You intuitions do not work with this Arabic because this Arabic is foreign to you.
Thanks and I am actually working on it.
Salaam and have a great visit to the Dominican republic
hussein
-
I understand your misunderstandings. But check an intensive grammar book on the form IV in Cl. Arabic. Your meanings are valid but they are not the only ones. My meanings are also ways in which the form of the verb can be used. Arabic forms have more than one shade of meaing that they can give to a root. But you have to check an intensive grammar book to get past the popular understanding. You gave popular usages of the word and popular understandings of the words in use, which happen to be correct. But consider the form. The form can mutate the meaning of the root in a number of specified ways. THose ways are specified in intensive grammar books. Look for one and read it and then you will know what Im talking about. The one I have is not in hand but I list it as a source in some of the articles on my site, if you look at the bottom of some of those articles you will be able to find the grammar book that Im using. If you can get your hands on it then you will know what im talking about a little better.
Godbless,
Anwar -
The reason I am asking is to have a clear vision to share (according to brother Damon's suggestion) that will be the foundation of the new "Islamicreform.org" site and the base of all unity.
Khi- Salam. I dont like 2 see the term Islmic Reform coz this wld indicate tht it was not true or outdated in it's original form n thus needs 2 be adjusted 2 society. No our way of life shld be according 2 the Quran not vice versa. We r 2 search 4 the logical meaning in the context of the Quran. I wld call it the revival of true Islam based on Quran Alone.
Here is a list for discussion on what you may think constitutes a Muslim
- Believing in and upholding the commands of 6151-153.
Khi- Yes i believe thts correct.
- Believing in and upholding all the social and legal laws of the Quran as per 37.
Khi- Absolutely, 2 the best of our ability.
- Believing that the traditional interpretations and rituals must be followed.
Khi- Traditional interpretations if they suit the context in the Quran correctly then yes otherwise no. Fundamental traditional meanings of Arabic Quranic words shld however be used in context. Inventing new meanings wld destroy the meaning of the Quran. Regarding the rituals tht issue cld be debated.
- Believing in the Quran's text (word for word, verse for verse).
Khi- Absolutely.
- Believing that messengers will come after Mohammed.
Khi- Absolutely n strictly messengers only who r NOT Prophets(those coming with a new scripture/law).
- Believing in the number 19 as a sign of the Quran.
Khi- Absolutely.
- Believing that 2 verses (128&129) must be removed from the Quran.
Khi- Actually the correct phrasing wld be 'removed from the Mushaf' where the Mushaf doesnt equal 2 Quran. Ive written an article on this at
http//19.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=4320&rid=222&S=3ce3468246c5d1bff0138642f8fac4f3#msg_4320
N yes i believe those two verses NEVER BELONGED 2 THE QURAN N NOW WE HAVE CLEAR MATHEMATICAL EVIDENCE 2 SHOW THIS.This post is addressed to everyone...Those for the unity, and those against it, and those who could not care one way or another.
Let your voices be heard...
Khi- U heard mine bro. Now it's upto u wht u make of it. GOD Bless!
-
salam.
Here is a list for discussion on what you may think constitutes a Muslim
- Believing in and upholding the commands of 6151-153.
yes . and believing in and upholding the all the cammands in the koran .
- Believing in and upholding all the social and legal laws of the Quran as per 37.
yes .
- Believing that the traditional interpretations and rituals must be followed.
traditional interpretion is not necessarily true . and since the details of some rituals are not in the koran , this issue is debatable.
- Believing in the Quran's text (word for word, verse for verse).
yes.
- Believing that messengers will come after Mohammed.
messengers like the angels of death ,yes .
- Believing in the number 19 as a sign of the Quran.
ppl can have different understanding about how exactly number 19 is a sign .
- Believing that 2 verses (128&129) must be removed from the Quran.
no.
-
Peace Anwar,
There is no need for us to be Muslim anyway. Yes Islam is outdated and it was always an inappropriate religion as it concerns the Koran.
That depends on how one words Muslim and Islam to begin with, no?
Personally, by understanding these words by the very nature of discussions previously held on these words and how their usage and application pertains to Quran, I believe these are not proper nouns. Any thoughts?
And by the way, islam has never been outdated nor becoming a muslim. The underlying fundamental principals of GOD's System has always been the same throughout history.
-
Here is a list for discussion on what you may think constitutes a Muslim
- Believing in and upholding the commands of 6151-153.
You must also be willing to kill and be killed for Gods cause to be a Muslim... cant forget that one
That's one that sets it apart from the two major religions
-
Here is a list for discussion on what you may think constitutes a Muslim
- Believing in and upholding the commands of 6151-153.
You must also be willing to kill and be killed for God?s cause to be a Muslim... cant forget that one
That's one that sets it apart from the two major religions
yes . we must not forget that one.
its better than turning the other cheek .
SLAP! -
God bless,
Peace Anwar,
progod wrote
There is no need for us to be Muslim anyway. Yes Islam is outdated and it was always an inappropriate religion as it concerns the Koran.That depends on how one words Muslim and Islam to begin with, no?
Personally, by understanding these words by the very nature of discussions previously held on these words and how their usage and application pertains to Quran, I believe these are not proper nouns. Any thoughts?
They are and they aren't. There is the language of the Koran and then there is the language that people use now and have used during the time after the Koran. Just as the Latin bible was written in ancient latin and that langauge is specific to its time and has its own usages (even if it can be learned and understood today) which have nothing to do with how we might use the same latin words today that it employs, the Koran was written in an ancient Cl. Arabic which is specific to its time and has its own usages (even if it can be learned and understood today) which have nothing to do with how we might use the same Arabic words today that it employs.
Yes, I believe that the Koran was written in an ancient language, with ancient words that belong to that time and that time only. BUT LISTEN, ITS MESSAGE IS WHAT IS TIMELESS, NOT ITS LANGUAGE. Let me repeat that, THE LANGUAGE IS DATED BUT THE MESSAGE IS TIMELESS. Some people have an issue with this because they think that an ancient language is not capable of expressing modern concepts and ideas. But everyone should understand that all the words that we have today to express new concepts are not new. WE PULL FROM OLD WORDS TO NAME NEW CONCEPTS. So God, especially, is quite capable of composiing a timeless message in a dated langauge. In the language of the Koran, which is Jahileeyah Classical Arabic, Islam and muslim are not proper nouns but in todays world and for over a thousand years, after the Koran, these words have been used as proper nouns.
First let me say that I have never been trying to change the meaning of Islam. All this time I have been trying to clarify what islam really is and how those who follow the Koran should not even be calling themselves Muslim or their religion Islam.
Islam IS a proper noun in todays world and it has been for over a thousand years. Islam consists of the beliefs that are the common beliefs of Sunnis, Shiites and Sufis, with all their sects and factions(which may also include the Ahmadeeyas). Unfortunately, I cannot include fringe groups whether positive or negative because they do not form the basis of the people who call themselves Muslims and their religion Islam. Whether the people here like that or not, that is the fact of the matter.
Everyone here, out of pure brainwashing and misconception, believes that Islam is the true religion and that whatever falsehood that Muslims follow must be thrown out to make true Islam. But Islam doesn't mean pure religion or submission to God, and its main concern is not following the Koran unfortunately, it is following in the way of Muhammad. Despite the fact that they view his way mistakenly, just as Christians view Christ's way mistakenly.
But maybe everyone here is just here to save Islam, and they will do it any cost. Maybe truth is not the real issue here, and I've' got it all twisted.
Because the basis of Islam is to follow Muhammad, it makes sense that groups would arise that would try to squeeze out those practices that truly are not based on following Muhammad. That is where you guys would come into play (and where I used to come into play), especially if you insist on calling yourselves Muslim. But you are a fringe group, like it or not. The only similarity that you have with the Muslims as it concerns the idea of Islam as it exists today is the idea of following Muhammad. What I'm trying to do with you guys is like what I would be trying to do with Jews, if I were to try to convince them that Judaism is not the religion of God. Judaism doesn't mean submission to God, or even following Moses teachings, i.e. the real Torah despite the fact that that is their proclaimed common ground. Just like Islam doesn't mean submission to God or even
following Muhammad's teachings, which is really the Koran, despite the fact that that is their proclaimed common ground.And by the way, islam has never been outdated nor becoming a muslim. The underlying fundamental principals of GOD's System has always been the same throughout history.
Islam was outdated the very first moment that someone decided to use the word to describe followers of Muhammad and his message. Sects and their exotic, mystical or ambigous names is a an outdating thing completely. Had those people been more concerned with calling themselves submissive to God rather than with some 'cool' mystical and ambigous religious title maybe we would have the problems we have today. Maybe those people would have kept their sites on God by saying that they were submissive to God instead of Muslims. It is obvious that just about everyone here and all Muslims have been more concerned with this title Islam rather than what their religon should actually be, and be called.
It's just like what happened in Senegal. In Senegal Muslims (even amongst themselves) are called 'jureet' which means someone who prays alot. Yeah maybe its good that Muslims pray but that title takes away from what Muslims are really about (follwoing Muhammad), such an ambigous name makes room for alot of (mis)interpretation. But atleast it has more concrete meaning to the people who use the term than Islam has to everyone who uses the term Islam.
I hope i was clear, I know that what I'm saying is hard for most people to get.
Godbless,
ProGod -
Peace Anwar,
It can be a little hard to follow, so to summarise are you saying that for example, islam means compliance, period...not compliance to God as a whole? And muslim means submitter, not a submitter to God as a whole?
But maybe everyone here is just here to save Islam, and they will do it any cost. Maybe truth is not the real issue here, and I've' got it all twisted.
Thus, by using the above... if someone claims to be saving islam then all he is really doing is saving compliance?
I hope i got that right? Or please clarify...
-
Peace,
Peace Anwar,
It can be a little hard to follow, so to summarise are you saying that for example, islam means compliance, period...not compliance to God as a whole? And muslim means submitter, not a submitter to God as a whole?
Yes, Islam means compliance, period, not compliance to God as whole. You've got it. And muslim only means 'submissive' and not submissive to God as a whole. That is atleast in Classical Arabic.
Now what it means to the modern world and what it has meant to Muslims for over 1000 years now (after the Koran) is another issue. But it is an issue that has nothing to do with Classical Arabic despite the lies and interpretations of the scholars.
Quote
But maybe everyone here is just here to save Islam, and they will do it any cost. Maybe truth is not the real issue here, and I've' got it all twisted.Thus, by using the above... if someone claims to be saving islam then all he is really doing is saving compliance?
In its classical Arabic sense yes. But when I said it in that sentence above I meant it in the sense that Muslims have been understanding the word for over a thousand years now, which is basically Mohammadenism in all its "accepted" forms, from moderate to extreme.
I hope i got that right? Or please clarify...
Yeah, you got it right. I'm glad you did. It is very hard for Muslims to free themselves of the brainwashing that they have been raised with and see Islam, both the word and the religion, as it really is.
Godbless,
ProGod -
Peace,
Now what it means to the modern world and what it has meant to Muslims for over 1000 years now (after the Koran) is another issue. But it is an issue that has nothing to do with Classical Arabic despite the lies and interpretations of the scholars.
I see, that makes sense...if the definitions are still there for us to reach this conclusion then the lies and interpretations don't matter...they are just that...
In its classical Arabic sense yes. But when I said it in that sentence above I meant it in the sense that Muslims have been understanding the word for over a thousand years now, which is basically Mohammadenism in all its "accepted" forms, from moderate to extreme.
I see your point...
It is very hard for Muslims to free themselves of the brainwashing that they have been raised with and see Islam, both the word and the religion, as it really is.
I agree, it's difficult... thank you for clarifying!
-
PEACE, PRO GOD,
Yes, Islam means compliance, period, not compliance to God as whole. You've got it. And muslim only means 'submissive' and not submissive to God as a whole. That is atleast in Classical Arabic. Now what it means to the modern world and what it has meant to Muslims for over 1000 years now (after the Koran) is another issue. But it is an issue that has nothing to do with Classical Arabic despite the lies and interpretations of the scholars.
My question to you is, how is Allah using/defining muslim in Al-Quran/Al-Islam? Does muslim simply mean "submissive" or does it mean, specifically, being submissive to Allah? Was Ibrahim simply being submissive to "whatever", and, if so, what was he being sumissive to? or was he being submissive to Allah?
-
Hi,
Well, from what I can conclude, is that those calling themselves ?muslim? actually should call themselves ?muhammedan??
And that to call yourself ?muslim? means that you are doing your very best to follow God?s words. Whether you succeed is a whole other story?
So now, how on earth can we understand who is a ?muslim? and who is a ?muhammedan?, or something else, calling him/herself ?muslim??
Seems to me the word has a very heavy load already?
Do we have to further clarify what we put in the word when we use it?How am I doing so far?
Regds
Ali Omar
-
Priest Bokmei
My question to you is, how is Allah using/defining muslim in Al-Quran/Al-Islam?
God doesn't define the word in the Koran. Islam already had a definition before the Koran every came about. The word Islam in its meaning of 'submission' will naturally only be used in context. You can see well in the Arabic that where the word 'Islam(submission/compliance)' is used the object of that compliance is stated in the context. Most times in the Koran it is to God. But in one context it is to Solomon, where Sheba complied/showed submissiveness to Solomon.
Does muslim simply mean "submissive" or does it mean, specifically, being submissive to Allah?
It simply means 'submissive.'
Was Ibrahim simply being submissive to "whatever", and, if so, what was he being sumissive to?
The context in the Koran is clear that he was being submissive to God. But just like I'm saying 'submissive' + to + God it also says this in the Arabic like 'God we count on you God may we be submissive' or 'God, make us submissive to you.'
or was he being submissive to Allah?
He was being submissvie to God, but the Koran mentions the word 'submissive' or 'muslim' in context adding 'to God' or having the person praying to God and praying to be submissive.
Godbless,
ProGod -
SaLaM Ali Omar
The funny thing is , even a christian is a muslim when he is being submissive to his/her God. Well, its the wrong God, but still he is being muslim / submissive to it. Allah literally means the God. So when christians are being submissive to Jesus, even tho they are misguided, they are still being muslim.
-
Jaxal,
I know you might not even be agreeing with me but my point is that 'muslim' doesn't even mean 'submissive to God' it just means submissive. So subjects of the king are submissvie(muslim) to their king, children are supposed to be submissive(muslim) to their parents and people in general are supposed to be submissve(muslim) to God.
Godbless,
ProGod -
SaLaM progod
No brother i AM agreeing with you. When a christian is completely devoted to his/her God ( i.e Jesus or Mary or the trinity etc... ) then you CAN call that christian a muslim. Even Jews are muslim. Lollllllll hahahhhhh this is funny loooooooooooooooooollllllll