Adultery with slaves?
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Brother Cyberus, I can also see where you are coming from.
But do you really believe "Mamalakat Aymaanukum" means slaves all the time?
Ju5 has already had few suggestions to the verses he quoted. If further clarification is required then a list can be given by Ju5 of all the verses that have the problem .We can proceed to give our take on them.
Of course you are also welcome to join the conversation.
D bless you.
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@huruf what means wal-mu'antu in 424 ?
also where is your proof that sex is only allowed when you "intend to marry them" ? the quran states that you can marry them, but you dont have to, and that you can not guard your private parts with them, but it isnt written if the person must be married, in fact if he/she was married it would be a spouse?
CLARIFICATION the fact that this group of persons is made of slaves, servants, wards or whatever doesnt matter to me, im talking about extra marital relationships
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@huruf what means wal-mu'antu in 424 ?
also where is your proof that sex is only allowed when you "intend to marry them" ? the quran states that you can marry them, but you dont have to, and that you can not guard your private parts with them, but it isnt written if the person must be married, in fact if he/she was married it would be a spouse?
CLARIFICATION the fact that this group of persons is made of slaves, servants, wards or whatever doesnt matter to me, im talking about extra marital relationships
?What? Where have I said that "that sex is only allowed when you "intend to marry them"? I have not said such a thing, and nowhere it is stated in the Qur'an that you can have sex reltion outside marriage, they are always meant as marriage. In aya 4.23 what do you understand, what what is forbidding or allowing you is non comittal sex? No, it is marriage. And if you do not mean marriage then it is forbiden.
What I meant to impress is that the term mamalakat ayman... when in connection with marriage means that those people so designed are dependent persons who you intend to marry, not persons with whom you have extramarital relationship. And that why it is allowed, you are lalowe dto marry them, it is a way of saying waives or husbands without actually using the word, the context gives the prper meaning.
walmuhsanat it is wa (and) al (the) muhsanaat (women with capacity of consent). Do not worry about the whole sentence because it is translated wrong more than 99% of the time, because they join this aya with the previous one and make it mean what they want to make it mean, that is, make poigamy allowed to males and prohibited to females. But the fact is that you cannot have the same word occurring several times int he same question and calling it each time whatever you fancy. No wonder the Qur'an at times looks like some entity from Saturn or beyond.
Salaam
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GL,
I really don't feel like getting involved in this thread, I just want to point out that the quranist take on that expression wasn't well explained here. A lot of non sense and garbage posts directed towards OP too.Also, as Wakas hinted, OP may or may not be a troll, but it doesn't mean anything because the general public has every reason to think of that word as 'slave' since it is the common understanding of it by sectarians. And if anyone want to correct him then they should do so. Of course, they need to be logical and as clear as possible.
Huruf, I simply asked if 'what your right hand possess'* could refer to 'servants' instead of 'slaves', since as you pointed out, riqab is closer to slave than 'ma malakat....' could possibly be.
(* the literal classical arabic translation of that expression.)
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Huruf, I simply asked if 'what your right hand possess'* could refer to 'servants' instead of 'slaves', since as you pointed out, riqab is closer to slave than 'ma malakat....' could possibly be.
(* the literal classical arabic translation of that expression.)
A thourough examination of all the occurrences of the words in the Qur'an does nto tell me tht it is servants but rather what I said, dependants, such as we understand them today. Also bear in mind the words themselves, what the right hand possesses is nto a person but a relationship with that person which is marked by the right hand. The right hnd in the Qur'an and in normal speech in many languages is the good hand, the benefical hand, tht which is done is the right hand is for good, not for selfish purposes but for generous purposes. You have a benefical relationship with those who are with you in it. Check yourself in the Qur'an itself and verify.
Of course, a mamalakar ay... may act as a serant, but as to the term it would be beside the point.
There are other terms for servants in Qur'an, like 3bd and others which I can't recall now.
Salaam
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Peace Cerberus.
Thank you for your frank reply.
Let me give you and the readers here my take on "Mamalakat Aymaanukum" according to my understanding of Qoran so far.I found the general meaning to be "What is rightfully and legally yours",however there are exceptions and different contexts to consider in certain verses.
For example a husband and wife have that legal contract that gives each of them rights to one another. Two lovers that find themselves fugitives from society can also have that right,a woman that leaves/flees/run away from husband because of clashed loyalties of GOD v others and vice versa and each is free to marry even without a divorce ...etc
Also there is polygamy to add to this mix. GOD has not outlawed/prohibited polygamy for social and orphans reasons. Whether we like it or not,polygamy exists even today.
Qoran always added" do not brake up existing marriages" ,however Qoran strongly advices that a man must give his full attention and loyalty in marriage to his wife and children in order to raise a happy and wholesome family.
The Qoran also emphasizes the limitations against polygamy in very strong words"If you fear lest you may not be perfectly equitable in treating more than one wife, then you shall be content with one." (43) "You cannot be equitable in a polygamous relationship, no matter how hard you try." (4129)
But Qoran is crystal clear that adultery is prohibited. Sex outside marriage/contract is not allowed with anyone including slaves.
There is no contradiction or abrogation between the verses. Adultery is forbidden,full stop.GOD ,in Qoran uses different words deliberately according to all possibilities,some we are not even aware of.His words never contradict each other,hence we must question our interpretation of those words.
I am confident that GOD,while aware of all the traditions and social ways of the past and future generations,has never said "you can have sex with your slaves" .
Bring on the verses those who disagree.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
@Aries 3352 No women are lawful to you beyond this, nor that you change them for other wives, even though you may be attracted by their beauty, except those to whom you are committed by oaths. God is watchful over all things.
"except those to whom you are committed by oaths" those aren't people?
Peace,
Not necessary at all. It can mean something like "except what encompasses/ involves your oath"
Are oaths only about women or people in general? o what about the Hippocratic oath, graduation pledges, ethical principles, oaths of chastity, oaths of office?
What if that part of the verse, in the last analysis, means that the addressed prophet here just does not need to get married if he does not want to? hmm
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You defined what you mean by "slave" but it does not seem to be supported by Quran's usage of MMA. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't but you never provided any evidence. If I am mistaken, please provide the verses which prove MMA=bonded slaves.
If you are interested in a reasonable discussion of this matter, see from this post onwards
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600888.msg253237#msg253237 -
@Aries 3352 No women are lawful to you beyond this, nor that you change them for other wives, even though you may be attracted by their beauty, except those to whom you are committed by oaths. God is watchful over all things.
"except those to whom you are committed by oaths" those aren t people?
@Wakas 1- 425 And as for those of you who, owing to cir?cumstances, are not in a position29 to marry free believing women, believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess.30 And God knows all about your faith; each one of you is an issue of the other.31 Marry them, then, with their people's leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions.32 And when they are married, and thereafter become guilty of immoral conduct, they shall be liable to half the penalty to which free married women are liable.33 This to those of you who fear lest they stumble into evil.34 But it is for your own good to persevere in patience and God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace. (asad translation, your favorite according to a post of yours)
it is written "slave"
now what slave means noun 1 .a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. (http//www.dictionary.com/browse/slave)now if they are indeed slaves or not doesnt even matter to me
the prophet s wives had ones (3355)
sex seems to be allowed with them (235-6)
the punishment of adultery for them is half the one of free women (but is the punishment of men half of the free men? since the prophets wives had ones (3355) they must have been men
you CAN marry them, or NOT, but 235 doesnt make the difference
@Reel why would God state than the prophet can marry doctors?
going to edit earlier post, its 235-6 not 2350
Good question, is there is a list in the Quran of professionals whom we can and can't marry?
Peace Cerberus.
Thank you for your frank reply.
Let me give you and the readers here my take on "Mamalakat Aymaanukum" according to my understanding of Qoran so far.I found the general meaning to be "What is rightfully and legally yours",however there are exceptions and different contexts to consider in certain verses.
For example a husband and wife have that legal contract that gives each of them rights to one another. Two lovers
I see that the lovers along with friends of two diff gender also fall in the category of right hand posses.
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4/24 there I get,
That we cannot SEEK other married woman for marriage except those married but were in our control now for various reasons(war captives, or refugees, nomads who lost path etc), those who for various reasons take shelter or under the care of those men. ....
Accept it or not we need ourselves go back to those ages to get the real idea of what it means.
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Truue
Even though nouman ali khan is sunni his explanation makes the most sense going back to that timeIf there is a context for something the Qur'an gives it, be it historical or not, but if the Qur'an does not give a context then we must not seek for it, othrwise we run the risk of falling into importing in the Qur'an historial views or influences about which we cannot swear.
There is a passage inthe Qur'an where it is advised to not return women fled fromt the disbelievers and to pay to the disbelievers whatever they paid as marriage to the women and the reverse, it could be understood that those women who fled might fall under the collective or individual category of mamalakat ayman... in the sense that the believrs took them in charge, but tht does not need to be the only kind of mamalakat that are considered. in 4.24 IT DOES NOT SPEAK, of married women. The word usually translated as married is false, is muhsanaat which in the next aya is transalated diversele as different things.
That is, independently of the fact that the marriage of women fled, if they were married may be considered nullified, 4.24 does nto speak of married women. On the other hand if those marriages were nullified, then they were nto married. Both things cannot be at the same time. And in 4.24 all mamalakat ayman... are included not only those that fled fromt he opposite side.
Obviously also, they are nto slaves.
Salaam
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@Huruf So the women with capacity of consent are unlawful, except the dependant ones ? according to 424
@Aries 3352 No women are lawful to you beyond this, nor that you change them for other wives, even though you may be attracted by their beauty, except those to whom you are committed by oaths. God is watchful over all things.
Its about people, it looks pretty clear
@Abdelilah According to the Q'uran the protected "mohsanat" women, independant according to huruf (from your link https//free-minds.org/rules-engagement ) are unlawful EXCEPT if you have an oath toward them, an engagement.
THEN the Q'uran says in 425 "waman lam yastaiminkum awlan an yankia l-mu'anti l-mu'minti famin m malakat aymnukum min fataytikumu l-mu'minti" If you CAN T marry a "mohsanat" (protected/independant woman) - which is supposed to be UNLAWFUL - then marry someone you rightfull possess (someone whom you are comitted by oath) -
So the women with capacity of consent are unlawful, except the dependant ones ? according to 424
No, that comes from wrongly continuing from the previous aya as if there were not a stop and a new paragraph, which obiously there is, particularly so since aya 4.23 closes clearly, particularly with the invocations of God as Forgiving asd most Merciful.
4.24 starts a a new paragraph. saying
"4.24. And as to the "muhsanaat" from amongst the women, except for those "mamalakat aymanukum", it is as prescribed by God (kitaaba Allahi 3alaikum) , and what is outside that it is lawful that you pursue with offering your wealth and obtaining the consent (muhsinin) of them (the women), not to turn them into fornicators (musafihaat). ... "
As you see, it makes perfect sense with the following aya, 4.25 where the behaviour as to the muhsanaat is gone into in more detail and also specified as to the mamalakat, which do not need to be mamalakat of the person who marries them, but may be mamalakaat of other persons and the prospective husband may pretend them in the conditions prescribed and always requiring the consent of the woman (muhsinin).
Notice that in the sentence "it is as prescribed by God", in arabic kitaaba is in acusative, whereas translators, in order to give it a semblance of logic, translate it as if it were the subject of an independent sentence, which it is not, and in nominative.
Much of what is said in these two ayas is lost in translation because the word "muhsanaat" is translated every time it appearas as a different thing.
A lot of twisting things which are quite simple just with the urpose of obscuring the fact that God exacts that the right and capacity of consent of women is acknowledged and made effective, and also to mke it appear the poligamy is a priilege God only gives to men.
If you know Spanish I can give you a link where this is examined in great detail.
Salaam
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Peace All.
Qoran does not need excuses. The lessons of old also apply to us and future generations.
One can argue about different details and contexts of "Mamalakat Aymaanukum" but no one can come up with"Have sex with your slaves" ,if they do they are simply ignoring what Qoran really says .
So,according to some,Qoran is contradicting itself!!! How can GOD say "Do not commit adultery" yet allow sex with slaves/others?Others say Why did GOD not specifically say "No slaves" and "No polygamy" full stop? There will be no argument. Every one should marry one spouse . Simple and effective and cuts all avenues of this argument/s?
GOD did not . Why? This is where we are and this is where we can make our argument then leave each one to study Qoran and make up their own.
My argument,according to my study of Qoran is the following
GOD has set up His system for all His creations,then gave us the "amana" as humans in particular. GOD knows the full picture,we only know our side of the big picture.
The issue for us is accept GOD s system or develop our own systems.-
Those who accept GOD s system,,the message is crystal clear" Yastamiuuna Alkawla Fayattabiuuna Ahsanahu" "They follow the best path from the word of GOD" .Qoran s advice,do not take slaves,treat others like you would want to be treated, do not commit adultery,free your slaves if you had any before the guidance, to have one wife/husband ,look after your children,family, or try to be fair in your existing marriage/s,do good...etc. No issues with this topic or any other topic,seek GOD s guidance and do your best.
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accept your "amana",follow other systems,which includes having slaves,treating people differently,polygamy,all sorts of mixtures. GOD is not enforcing His system on these people because of His promise . This is where GOD is giving advice to these systems and freeing men and women from the bondages that they find themselves in. His mercy is encompassing some of their sins and giving them ways out of oppressions and injustice, GOD knows people take lovers( and yes mostly the men,according to statistics around the world) ,GOD knows that women,children and some men are going to be oppressed and unfairly treated. This is what we are arguing about. What is Qoran saying to all those who are still not willing to "Submit " to His system.
I conclude that for those who want to "submit" follow the best advice given by Qoran in all topics and situations and walk the way GOD s light is guiding you .i.eo not take slaves,do not commit adultery,do not marry more than one wife/husband,...etc. That is the big issue that needs tackling in all societies .
However ,the argument/s will continue. I cannot justify what others will not see/accept . Each will follow the path they choose.
I will close here,hoping that each one of us will look for the best advice GOD has given in Qoran and follow it.
That is my understanding and conclusion in this topic.
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
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Peace All.
Qoran does not need excuses. The lessons of old also apply to us and future generations.
One can argue about different details and contexts of "Mamalakat Aymaanukum" but no one can come up with"Have sex with your slaves" ,if they do they are simply ignoring what Qoran really says .
So,according to some,Qoran is contradicting itself!!! How can GOD say "Do not commit adultery" yet allow sex with slaves/others?Others say Why did GOD not specifically say "No slaves" and "No polygamy" full stop? There will be no argument. Every one should marry one spouse . Simple and effective and cuts all avenues of this argument/s?
GOD did not . Why? This is where we are and this is where we can make our argument then leave each one to study Qoran and make up their own.
My argument,according to my study of Qoran is the following
GOD has set up His system for all His creations,then gave us the "amana" as humans in particular. GOD knows the full picture,we only know our side of the big picture.
The issue for us is accept GOD s system or develop our own systems.-
Those who accept GOD s system,,the message is crystal clear" Yastamiuuna Alkawla Fayattabiuuna Ahsanahu" "They follow the best path from the word of GOD" .Qoran s advice,do not take slaves,treat others like you would want to be treated, do not commit adultery,free your slaves if you had any before the guidance, to have one wife/husband ,look after your children,family, or try to be fair in your existing marriage/s,do good...etc. No issues with this topic or any other topic,seek GOD s guidance and do your best.
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accept your "amana",follow other systems,which includes having slaves,treating people differently,polygamy,all sorts of mixtures. GOD is not enforcing His system on these people because of His promise . This is where GOD is giving advice to these systems and freeing men and women from the bondages that they find themselves in. His mercy is encompassing some of their sins and giving them ways out of oppressions and injustice, GOD knows people take lovers( and yes mostly the men,according to statistics around the world) ,GOD knows that women,children and some men are going to be oppressed and unfairly treated. This is what we are arguing about. What is Qoran saying to all those who are still not willing to "Submit " to His system.
I conclude that for those who want to "submit" follow the best advice given by Qoran in all topics and situations and walk the way GOD s light is guiding you .i.eDo not take slaves,do not commit adultery,do not marry more than one wife/husband,...etc. That is the big issue that needs tackling in all societies .
However ,the argument/s will continue. I cannot justify what others will not see/accept . Each will follow the path they choose.
I will close here,hoping that each one of us will look for the best advice GOD has given in Qoran and follow it.
That is my understanding and conclusion in this topic.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.About poligamy, it is clear that the Qur'an considers monogamy "the marriage", that anything outside that is, if it is, exceptional. It says an an aya, I don't remember the number "marry the singles", to men and women alike. But on th eother hand there is no outright prohibition of poligamy, either for male sor for females. The reasons, I think are obvious. When there is a great unbalance in the amount of people of each sex, for instance many more men than women or many more women than men, there should be a moral and legal way of making the situation bearable. Equally exceptional circumstances which we may not imagine, but which might make an exception better than the opposite.
Bear in mind, than when speaking about inheritance leaving more than one widow is never contemplated, that should oint out clearly that poligamy is not an ordinary or standard human condition.
What is not a justification for it is pandering to the vanity or lusts of anybody.
Myself I do not know why anybody would like to have more than one spouse. An spouse is already a big undertaking...
Salaam
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