Adultery with slaves?
-
peace all and eid mubarak to all brothers and sisters
actually in reply to my reckless first post i may add clearly
when somebody wills to point out something from something its always very popular how people twist the meanings by their wishful thinkingcoming back to topic
as far i understand two catagories are there
one is wife/spouse
another one is girlfriend/partner which also considered as (rightfully yours)God knows best as per 37
slavery is always discouraged by system of God even pharaoh also advised by God to free the children of israel and the name of prophet adopted son(zaid) is mention in scripture who beleived to b slave as per history so we can see slavery is always discouraged by true God
God bless you all
-
@imrankhawaja 3355 the prophets wives had ones, so i dont think it can be "partners"
-
partners and wives if both are legal infront of God system than it shouldnt be any problem logically
coz all those prophets who came when there was not a trend of marriage in history at that time their partners play the exact roles compared to later socities
example is in uncivilised world you see people dnt make wives but they. make partners from which they get kids too so they considered as rightfully yours
hope you got it now
-
No slaves in all these pages.
The Qur'an orders to free slaves from bondage to compensate some wrong or to simply free them because that is a goo action.
The only word used for freeing for slaves tht is used when we are ordered to free slaves is raqab, plural riqaab. Those designated with that word are the only slaves that are mentionned in the Qur'an. The rest of the words translated as slaves are PLAIN WRONG. Why should freeing slavesbe restricted to that word if all slaves were meant?
Why should some slaes be freed and not others.
Interpreters and traslators of Qur'an have done a lot of mischief making things into what they are not.
Mamalakat ayman...is not slave, cannot be slave, it is persons who are dependent on other persons, that is in their charge, otherwise also expressed as pupils or wards. They are not slaves.
The only slaves inQur'an are as said, al riqab.
As to the mamalakat ayman, with which one is allowed sxual intimacy are those that are depedant BUT that someone intends to marry, those are the ones alluded to in 4.24, if after being made undependant they commit indecency, they will be awarded half punishment, which is logical because they come from a later start into self-responsibility.
This, are so plain... but the male elite outlook has managed to distort them to complete ridicule.
Salaam
-
Peace Ju5.
You are not taking in what the brothers and sisters are saying to you.
Yet you gladly take "slaves" as translations to "Mamaakat Aymaanukum"? Why? "Mammalalakat Aymaanukum" can have many meanings ,It does not mean slave!!!!They already said in some verses you quoted ,slaves have not even been mentioned .Sister reel said that the translators are using the word slaves.. I can see that you are easily buying it.
Now,in 3355 the prophet s wives may have had helpers/workers/ servants to help with feeding and preparing for visitors,guests...
( Why should a translation of slaves fit in better?) etc.They were asked to be familiar with them like they are familiar with their families. i.e to relax their dress code around these people.Like brother Wakas said, Are you sincerely trying to understand Qoran ?
The bottom line is you have all these choices including slaves and free sex with them. You choose.
It is you alone who will decide whether to accept and learn/study Qoran or disregard it.
May GOD guide you and bless you.
Peace. -
Can you guys point out each verse that has that word and what you guys think is the appropriate translation without being so vague saying stuff like 'it can have many meanings'?
Ju5, I see where you're coming from.
Huruf, what about 'servant' ?
Reel, 'investigators' really ?
-
Brother Cyberus, I can also see where you are coming from.
But do you really believe "Mamalakat Aymaanukum" means slaves all the time?
Ju5 has already had few suggestions to the verses he quoted. If further clarification is required then a list can be given by Ju5 of all the verses that have the problem .We can proceed to give our take on them.
Of course you are also welcome to join the conversation.
D bless you.
Peace. -
@huruf what means wal-mu'antu in 424 ?
also where is your proof that sex is only allowed when you "intend to marry them" ? the quran states that you can marry them, but you dont have to, and that you can not guard your private parts with them, but it isnt written if the person must be married, in fact if he/she was married it would be a spouse?
CLARIFICATION the fact that this group of persons is made of slaves, servants, wards or whatever doesnt matter to me, im talking about extra marital relationships
-
@huruf what means wal-mu'antu in 424 ?
also where is your proof that sex is only allowed when you "intend to marry them" ? the quran states that you can marry them, but you dont have to, and that you can not guard your private parts with them, but it isnt written if the person must be married, in fact if he/she was married it would be a spouse?
CLARIFICATION the fact that this group of persons is made of slaves, servants, wards or whatever doesnt matter to me, im talking about extra marital relationships
?What? Where have I said that "that sex is only allowed when you "intend to marry them"? I have not said such a thing, and nowhere it is stated in the Qur'an that you can have sex reltion outside marriage, they are always meant as marriage. In aya 4.23 what do you understand, what what is forbidding or allowing you is non comittal sex? No, it is marriage. And if you do not mean marriage then it is forbiden.
What I meant to impress is that the term mamalakat ayman... when in connection with marriage means that those people so designed are dependent persons who you intend to marry, not persons with whom you have extramarital relationship. And that why it is allowed, you are lalowe dto marry them, it is a way of saying waives or husbands without actually using the word, the context gives the prper meaning.
walmuhsanat it is wa (and) al (the) muhsanaat (women with capacity of consent). Do not worry about the whole sentence because it is translated wrong more than 99% of the time, because they join this aya with the previous one and make it mean what they want to make it mean, that is, make poigamy allowed to males and prohibited to females. But the fact is that you cannot have the same word occurring several times int he same question and calling it each time whatever you fancy. No wonder the Qur'an at times looks like some entity from Saturn or beyond.
Salaam
-
GL,
I really don't feel like getting involved in this thread, I just want to point out that the quranist take on that expression wasn't well explained here. A lot of non sense and garbage posts directed towards OP too.Also, as Wakas hinted, OP may or may not be a troll, but it doesn't mean anything because the general public has every reason to think of that word as 'slave' since it is the common understanding of it by sectarians. And if anyone want to correct him then they should do so. Of course, they need to be logical and as clear as possible.
Huruf, I simply asked if 'what your right hand possess'* could refer to 'servants' instead of 'slaves', since as you pointed out, riqab is closer to slave than 'ma malakat....' could possibly be.
(* the literal classical arabic translation of that expression.)
-
Huruf, I simply asked if 'what your right hand possess'* could refer to 'servants' instead of 'slaves', since as you pointed out, riqab is closer to slave than 'ma malakat....' could possibly be.
(* the literal classical arabic translation of that expression.)
A thourough examination of all the occurrences of the words in the Qur'an does nto tell me tht it is servants but rather what I said, dependants, such as we understand them today. Also bear in mind the words themselves, what the right hand possesses is nto a person but a relationship with that person which is marked by the right hand. The right hnd in the Qur'an and in normal speech in many languages is the good hand, the benefical hand, tht which is done is the right hand is for good, not for selfish purposes but for generous purposes. You have a benefical relationship with those who are with you in it. Check yourself in the Qur'an itself and verify.
Of course, a mamalakar ay... may act as a serant, but as to the term it would be beside the point.
There are other terms for servants in Qur'an, like 3bd and others which I can't recall now.
Salaam
-
Peace Cerberus.
Thank you for your frank reply.
Let me give you and the readers here my take on "Mamalakat Aymaanukum" according to my understanding of Qoran so far.I found the general meaning to be "What is rightfully and legally yours",however there are exceptions and different contexts to consider in certain verses.
For example a husband and wife have that legal contract that gives each of them rights to one another. Two lovers that find themselves fugitives from society can also have that right,a woman that leaves/flees/run away from husband because of clashed loyalties of GOD v others and vice versa and each is free to marry even without a divorce ...etc
Also there is polygamy to add to this mix. GOD has not outlawed/prohibited polygamy for social and orphans reasons. Whether we like it or not,polygamy exists even today.
Qoran always added" do not brake up existing marriages" ,however Qoran strongly advices that a man must give his full attention and loyalty in marriage to his wife and children in order to raise a happy and wholesome family.
The Qoran also emphasizes the limitations against polygamy in very strong words"If you fear lest you may not be perfectly equitable in treating more than one wife, then you shall be content with one." (43) "You cannot be equitable in a polygamous relationship, no matter how hard you try." (4129)
But Qoran is crystal clear that adultery is prohibited. Sex outside marriage/contract is not allowed with anyone including slaves.
There is no contradiction or abrogation between the verses. Adultery is forbidden,full stop.GOD ,in Qoran uses different words deliberately according to all possibilities,some we are not even aware of.His words never contradict each other,hence we must question our interpretation of those words.
I am confident that GOD,while aware of all the traditions and social ways of the past and future generations,has never said "you can have sex with your slaves" .
Bring on the verses those who disagree.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
@Aries 3352 No women are lawful to you beyond this, nor that you change them for other wives, even though you may be attracted by their beauty, except those to whom you are committed by oaths. God is watchful over all things.
"except those to whom you are committed by oaths" those aren't people?
Peace,
Not necessary at all. It can mean something like "except what encompasses/ involves your oath"
Are oaths only about women or people in general? o what about the Hippocratic oath, graduation pledges, ethical principles, oaths of chastity, oaths of office?
What if that part of the verse, in the last analysis, means that the addressed prophet here just does not need to get married if he does not want to? hmm
-
You defined what you mean by "slave" but it does not seem to be supported by Quran's usage of MMA. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't but you never provided any evidence. If I am mistaken, please provide the verses which prove MMA=bonded slaves.
If you are interested in a reasonable discussion of this matter, see from this post onwards
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600888.msg253237#msg253237 -
@Aries 3352 No women are lawful to you beyond this, nor that you change them for other wives, even though you may be attracted by their beauty, except those to whom you are committed by oaths. God is watchful over all things.
"except those to whom you are committed by oaths" those aren t people?
@Wakas 1- 425 And as for those of you who, owing to cir?cumstances, are not in a position29 to marry free believing women, believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess.30 And God knows all about your faith; each one of you is an issue of the other.31 Marry them, then, with their people's leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions.32 And when they are married, and thereafter become guilty of immoral conduct, they shall be liable to half the penalty to which free married women are liable.33 This to those of you who fear lest they stumble into evil.34 But it is for your own good to persevere in patience and God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace. (asad translation, your favorite according to a post of yours)
it is written "slave"
now what slave means noun 1 .a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. (http//www.dictionary.com/browse/slave)now if they are indeed slaves or not doesnt even matter to me
the prophet s wives had ones (3355)
sex seems to be allowed with them (235-6)
the punishment of adultery for them is half the one of free women (but is the punishment of men half of the free men? since the prophets wives had ones (3355) they must have been men
you CAN marry them, or NOT, but 235 doesnt make the difference
@Reel why would God state than the prophet can marry doctors?
going to edit earlier post, its 235-6 not 2350
Good question, is there is a list in the Quran of professionals whom we can and can't marry?
Peace Cerberus.
Thank you for your frank reply.
Let me give you and the readers here my take on "Mamalakat Aymaanukum" according to my understanding of Qoran so far.I found the general meaning to be "What is rightfully and legally yours",however there are exceptions and different contexts to consider in certain verses.
For example a husband and wife have that legal contract that gives each of them rights to one another. Two lovers
I see that the lovers along with friends of two diff gender also fall in the category of right hand posses.
-
4/24 there I get,
That we cannot SEEK other married woman for marriage except those married but were in our control now for various reasons(war captives, or refugees, nomads who lost path etc), those who for various reasons take shelter or under the care of those men. ....
Accept it or not we need ourselves go back to those ages to get the real idea of what it means.
