Stoning the three pillars during Haj|
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Okay provide the links if you will
RegardsHere you are;
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg68913#msg68913
37103
Wa Ma Aslama ??..? And not he submitted??..The test or trial- read the following Ayah.
249
And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered (what ever zibah means) your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.Abraham and his Son refused to carry out the orders of a tyrant (37103) ? so Abraham passes the test but then ransomed by God with educational 30 years in the tyrants own palace.
The original quran was clearing up the falsehood - I believe.
Good Hunting.......
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Thanks for your links and clarification. I have already came across these before from elsewhere.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Thanks for your links and clarification. I have already came across these before from elsewhere.
GOD bless you.
Peace.you are Welcome.
Another place i found Mr shah rukh khan - an indian actor in his movie "my name is khan"
He plays a role as a guy with Asperger's syndrome
well any way he goes to read his salli in a masjid and sees a group of guys discussing islam and joins them
the imam starts telling Abraham sacrifice , to encourage them to perform terrorism "see how abraham slaughtered his son for God"
Khan gets up and starts shouting "lier,lier, lier"
The imam asks politely well if God didn't order him who did ?Khan replies "shaitan,shaitan,shaitan" and runs out of the mosque.
peace
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Did you read my link prior?
Further discussed here onwards
http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.msg2241#msg2241Peace Wakas,
Thank you I hadn't noticed it. Interesting perspectives from you and Joseph Islam.
I agree with your last post that it seems to me from Ibrahim thus being rewarded as a good doer and the conviction of both of them to follow through with what they were convinced it was from God that it was probably from God.
The fulfillment of the vision was the submission and intent of Ibrahim to carry out the sacrifice.
I know you were making a claim for sacrifice alluding to giving someone up, but no one could provide supporting evidence for such.
I simply humbly read the passage literally and don't beat myself up over the details.
Is it so hard to believe that God thus tested Ibrahim?I seek refuge in Allah lest I say about His Majesty that which I do not know.
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I recommend
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13069.msg273059#msg273059Can you show where and how he is sacrificed in the quran? according to your explanation on the meaning of sacrifice? (although i do agree with you).....Thanks.
Remember they are never spoken of together again and ismael is very young also
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peace,
I know you were making a claim for sacrifice alluding to giving someone up, but no one could provide supporting evidence for such.
My view is that it could mean "sacrifice" in its first usage in the verses (when Abraham relays the dream to his son) because when other visions are mentioned in Quran the words/objects used are often not taken literally (125, 12100, 1243) i.e. they are symbolic/mean something else.
Thus, this only leaves the 2nd usage of "sacrifice" (in 37107) to explain away. It could be a play on words as I have noted elsewhere in Quran, but I personally haven't checked every Classical Arabic dictionary to see if this word has ever been used non-literally. We do it in English all the time however.
The objection in the above paragraph is the only sticking point for my view, everything else is favourably weighted towards my understanding (in my opinion). Thus, in terms of balance of probability I take the view as mentioned in the links I gave.
Can you show where and how he is sacrificed in the quran? according to your explanation on the meaning of sacrifice? (although i do agree with you).....Thanks.
Remember they are never spoken of together again and ismael is very young also
Exactly. Quran also confirms there is a separation "...settled some/of/from (partitive) of my progeny" in 1437.
To be frank, my view is a perfect fit except for what I mentioned previously.
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peace,
My view is that it could mean "sacrifice" in its first usage in the verses (when Abraham relays the dream to his son) because when other visions are mentioned in Quran the words/objects used are often not taken literally (125, 12100, 1243) i.e. they are symbolic/mean something else.
Thus, this only leaves the 2nd usage of "sacrifice" (in 37107) to explain away. It could be a play on words as I have noted elsewhere in Quran, but I personally haven't checked every Classical Arabic dictionary to see if this word has ever been used non-literally. We do it in English all the time however.
The objection in the above paragraph is the only sticking point for my view, everything else is favourably weighted towards my understanding (in my opinion). Thus, in terms of balance of probability I take the view as mentioned in the links I gave.
Exactly. Quran also confirms there is a separation "...settled some/of/from (partitive) of my progeny" in 1437.
To be frank, my view is a perfect fit except for what I mentioned previously.
If that was the case , then there is no great feat by ismail......
May be I am wrong, can/ is
Ismail = Moses, as there isn't any name for Moses in childhood in the quran, is there?The sacrifice made was the giving up of their child, so it was never a physical slaughter as such.
May be pharaoh took away their children to work as slaves leaving behind their women.Etymology of the name Ishmael
The name Ishmael consists of two elements. The first part comes from the verb (shama', meaning to hear
Abarim Publications' online Biblical Hebrew Dictionary
The root-verb (shama' means to hear in much the same way as our English verb. It may mean to perceive a sound via the ears (Genesis 310, Deuteronomy 433), or to hear about something via the grapevine (1 Samuel 134, Isaiah 66. It may denote an observant listening, a paying attention to (Amos 41, Micah 39), or understanding someone's language (Genesis 117). It may mean to hear someone out (Genesis 236), or hear someone in a judicial setting (Deuteronomy 117). Our verb also often means to listen to someone in the sense of to obey that person (Judges 220, 1 Samuel 87), or to hear and forgive or help (1 Kings 830, Isaiah 3019).
I to denote who hears
Shama to hear
i?l the one who is heardIsmail
(One) who hears Allah.SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And messengers about whom We have related to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you. And Allah spoke to Moses with speech.
(30. So when he reached it, he was called from the right side of the valley, in the blessed place, from the tree ?O Musa! Verily, I am Allah, the Lord of all that exists!?)???Or is it too far fetched?
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Ismail=Moses did away with their laws and set up the laws again for mankind........ cleansed Albait and reestablished it anew.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000400.pdf
I was looking at this ayah to make a point but need some input - from anybody ......
The word mathabatan 2.125 is always translated as a place for return, but looking at lanes
...Al-Bait mathabatan for mankind.......Al-Bait is for recompensing , compensating, requital or reward - for good and for evil - for mankind.........
Is that right , might be? -\
Doesn't it sound like The Law?
Hope people agree or disagree -\
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peace,
My view is that it could mean "sacrifice" in its first usage in the verses (when Abraham relays the dream to his son) because when other visions are mentioned in Quran the words/objects used are often not taken literally (125, 12100, 1243) i.e. they are symbolic/mean something else.
Thus, this only leaves the 2nd usage of "sacrifice" (in 37107) to explain away. It could be a play on words as I have noted elsewhere in Quran, but I personally haven't checked every Classical Arabic dictionary to see if this word has ever been used non-literally. We do it in English all the time however.
The objection in the above paragraph is the only sticking point for my view, everything else is favourably weighted towards my understanding (in my opinion). Thus, in terms of balance of probability I take the view as mentioned in the links I gave.
Exactly. Quran also confirms there is a separation "...settled some/of/from (partitive) of my progeny" in 1437.
To be frank, my view is a perfect fit except for what I mentioned previously.
I don't truly think your view is truly a perfect fit or can be considered acceptable because
- As you stated you need to verify that it's non-literal meaning has comparable usage in Classical Arabic
- Most importantly you cannot reconstruct Arabic grammar in 37103, which clearly describes both of them submitting and pay attention here, IBRAHIM watallahu liljabini; PUT HIM DOWN ON HIS FOREHEAD. Next verse Allah decrees to Ibrahim that he has fulfilled the vision.
The vision was clearly the sacrifice of his son, that's why they both submitted and then Ibrahim him put him on his forehead. There is no other coherent meaning to be extrapolated from these verses.
Simple and clear.
It would require some state of the art acrobatics to dismiss this evidence -
one more thing to add..
lets start from literal understanding first..
the word used else where in quran which is in the favor of slaughter like the cow event of chapter 2, the event of animal sacrifice in 53 and the slaughtering of hud hud in chapter 27 .. so lets carry on with this at the moment
becoz the other words both of them used once in quran..abraham was a human and he struggle in understanding the real creator untill he finds out truth about creator
he also wanted to see the ressurection with his own eyes for self satisfactionbasically u can say he was a honest and intelligent person ..
when he had dream ( he interpret it wrong possibly) or the dream was from devil. becoz God does not order immorality?
our main point of discussion is not what abraham did , but what God actually order?
although its my own understanding but i feel , in those days the blood sacrifice was on its height as a custom/tradition so when he had a dream that he is sacrificing his son , the symbolic term or interpretation could be anything..
and before he carry on with the traditional understanding of sacrifice God make it easy for him that although you fullfilled the vision but the sacrifice is not life giving but a noble cause..
that evil practise of slaughtering the kids never encouraged by God..818 When the girl killed in infancy is asked
819 "For what crime was she killed?"728 When they commit evil acts, they say, "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say, "God does not order evil! Do you say about God what you do not know?"
peace and God bless you all
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How can we extract from Qoran that GOD order such an act? How can GOD give a commandment then try a person by asking him/her to break that commandment?
Nowhere in the verses do we find that GOD initiated/ordered such an act? On the contrary GOD only saves the devoted person from committing such an act!
Seeing an act in a dream and GOD ordering an act are two different things. If one says GOD can order things (Good) in dreams,I will say may be so but GOD will never order "Fahisha" direct or in dreams.
GOD is "Alhaqq",The act is "Albaatil".We all know that GOD "La Yaamuru Bi-Alfahshaa".
GOD bless .
Peace. -
peace,
I don't truly think your view is truly a perfect fit or can be considered acceptable because
- Most importantly you cannot reconstruct Arabic grammar in 37103, which clearly describes both of them submitting and pay attention here, IBRAHIM watallahu liljabini; PUT HIM DOWN ON HIS FOREHEAD.
It would require some state of the art acrobatics to dismiss this evidence
I assumed you had carefully read the links I provided. My mistake.
In case you missed it, let me make it clear it is a FACT that a common classical Arabic meaning of the verb in question is
= Ta-Lam-Lam = ...lay one down upon one's kin, neck, cheek, or breast.
GL,
Do you think the evidence points to the vision not being from God in Quran? If so, do you have Quranic evidence? -
Peace Wakas.
I would say the question should be
Do you have evidence that the vision is from GOD?( Qoranic evidence).
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Wakas,please quote the verses here that are evidence.
I have said the reasoning and context of Qoran that GOD does not order such an act . GOD does not order "Fahisha,murder...etc."
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
This is where I disagree with you brother Wakas,Quote
If I may ask you a question, Quran clearly states Abraham fulfilled the vision, thus according to you, what exactly did Abraham fulfil/complete?The word "Saddakta" does not mean fulfilled/completed? it simply means "believed the dream to be true". For me this means Abraham assumed( like some are assuming ) that it was from GOD.
Anyway I agree with the view of brother Joseph in that link"There is no implicit word/sentence to indicate that GOD ordered the act in Qoran".
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace,
I assumed you had carefully read the links I provided. My mistake.
In case you missed it, let me make it clear it is a FACT that a common classical Arabic meaning of the verb in question is
Lay one down upon one's kin, neck, cheek or breast
I did read the links, and that meaning of the verb is coherent with the act of sacrifice and my understanding. I don't understand why you are trying to bring up this verb when it rather supports my argument. You'd have to really twist your mind to not see that to lay one down on their neck, cheek or breast is essentially, to lay one down into a submissive position. To facilitate execution.
Like in these imageshttp//media.gettyimages.com/photos/laying-down-picture-id469342439?s=170667a
http//christopherson.net/genealogy/photo/einarson/IMG_WEB_0089_Beheading.jpg -
This was posted previously but there was a forum data loss, hence re-posting
peace GL,
I disagree with yourself and brother Joseph, unless he meant "explicit" not "implicit". There is certainly "implicit" evidence. Let's summarise (refute if able)
Your position is that Abraham AND his son both incorrectly thought it was from God.
Abraham AND his son thought God wanted to kill an innocent person.
Abraham's son automatically assumes it is a command/amr. Is there a verse in Quran wherein shaytan/iblis commands another? (as some think it was a vision by shaytan/iblis/etc)
Nowhere does Quran state/imply they interpreted the vision incorrectly.
Nowhere does Quran mention shaytan/iblis/etc in this story of Abraham.
Quran uses the future particle "sa" for Abraham's son AFTER Abraham would have killed him, stating he will be of the patient ones if God wills. Tell us how does one can be patient after they are killed? And what the son's patience has to do with this story?
When Quran says they both "submitted" you interpolate (in intention, i.e. were about to do the act).
When Quran says "INDEED WE LIKE THUS reward the good-doers" we cant take it as an exemplar because no-one can replicate the lesson in this story, i.e. do something in a dream because you THINK it is from God and you will be rewarded (even if it goes against Quran's principles), i.e. the fact that one THINKS it's from God trumps whatever Quran says.
Quran EXPLICITLY states Abraham settled SOME of his progeny in an area, showing there was a separation. Also Abraham/isac/ishmael are NEVER mentioned together in one place.
Quran's other examples of visions are symbolic and not literal, but in this case you take it literally, i.e. there is no interpretation whatsoever.
Fail to explain why the ransom/exchange of a GREAT sacrifice. What's so great about the goat/camel/whatever that was exchanged/ransomed in your version?
Quran uses LI-ljabini which most commonly means "to/for" not "upon" his forhead.
Quran uses "and we left upon him for the later generations" - explain?
EVERYWHERE in Quran wherein the word "trial/balao" is used, it is from God, but your position is its an exception in the story of Abraham, i.e. not from God.
The last point by itself is enough to refute any claim of no implicit evidence.
peace HPT,
Please re-read. It says "lay one down upon one's kin" not "lay another/someone down....".
