What is the reason for creation?
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God created logic and reason. We choose not to worship statues because we know they can't do anything. We choose not to worship jesus because we know a "God" cannot be humiliated and killed like that. We choose not to worship an animal because they are inferior to us on an intellectual level or at least on a consciousness level.
Now the Quran states God does not need anything but he created humans to serve him. Does this sentence make sense to anyone? We as mere humans cannot serve God is my conclusion. Our purpose is not to serve as we can't do that, and God does not need it.
Our purpose must be something else, people here on this forum are stuck trying to modernize the Quran and argue over small details. BUT the bigger picture, if not the most important piece of knowledge which no one here seems to think about and reflect upon is WHY ARE WE HERE!
We are born to die, everything we have, or did or accomplished will be useless once we die. People that create a purpose for themselves like building an empire, becoming wealthy, having a family are deluded of the true reality. What is the true reality, I don't know but I will find it.
Anoushirvan, I came here to reassure myself that I have made the right decision. The sectarian interpretations of the Quran will lead me nowhere, at least not to what I want to find out. To reassure myself that the way of thinking of Quran alone muslims is just like Sunni/Shia muslims just a little better.
Reel, is God in control of everything?
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The question is simpler than that concerning us. Why did God creat us? No, why in fact did God create anything? The name the Creator is His, that is, it is in God's nature self to create, just as it is inHis nature to sustain, Rabb.
In some previous discussions I held the same view as Rekk, that we cannot serve God because He does not need anything and I defended rather that we worship God rathr tha serve Him. On the other hand, spending too much time on this discussion, worship or serve is merely tos quabble about words.
The question is that God created us (and everything else, because it is in His nture. The what for? question should not arise because God does not have an end a finality a purpose. He is the Ultimate, therefore purpose is not in Him. He is indeed perfect. It is we who do have a purpose, whichever it may be.
So why God created us or what for has an answer for us as to OUR purpose, but not for God, which does not have a need for anything nor a compulsion to become something else He is not already or anything of the kind.
As to our purpose, it is clearly stated all over the Qur'an, our purpose and that of everything else to return to Him. nd our endeavour is also stated precisely in the Fatiha "Guide us to the ascending straight path, the path of those who found your favour, not that of those who found your anger nor of those who strayed.
All of us and everything will return to God, our "choice" or ossibilities is to d it the most rewarding way or to do it in more unrewarding ways. We and everythign will return to our divine source, whether we want it or not, our question is how happily or how painfully.
As to the question, serve or worship. We cannot do anything for God, but we can do something for ourselves. And the best thing we can do for ourseles is to acknowledge our nature and God's nature, that is islam, the source of peace, the accepting of Truth, al Haqq.
Salaam
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Now the Quran states God does not need anything but he created humans to serve him. Does this sentence make sense to anyone?
We as mere humans cannot serve God is my conclusion. Our purpose is not to serve as we can't do that, and God does not need it.
Many has stated 5156, i.e.
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Wama khalaqtu aljinna waal-insa illa liyaAAbudooni
And not I have created the jinn and the mankind except that they worship Me.•
If that is Allah's words who are we as humans to question Allah's words.
The problem is the term "3budu" should not be translated as 'worship' nor 'serve' as in the English sense it can be very misleading. 'Worship' is generally associated with 'idol-worship'.
I believe '3budu' is something like 'subsumption' and then 'alignment' to the ONE Being, i.e. Allah.
• Subsumption to include or place within something larger or more comprehensive encompass as a subordinate or component element.
https//www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subsume•
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Peace Rekkd,All.
GOD uses a lot of words in Qoran that require us to use our intellect ,effort and all our faculties to try and figure this question out.
Words like knowledge,reflect,ponder,think,check,intelligence,investigate,learn from experience of those before you,patience...Notice how GOD poses more questions to us ,GOD wants each individual to start the journey ,led by GOD,in submission to GOD,and carries on that journey to attain wisdom so that some of the questions can be answered with the experience through moving on this path .
We,out of impatience want some answers that will not make sense to us at the wrong time of our journey. How can you get to the end without starting at the beginning and taking the journey in the right steps?
Each one of us needs to search for their own purpose,through hard work,toiling,instinct,relying on GOD Alone and being patient.
To summarise,,true knowledge and the true path to finding your true purpose is first and foremost to acknowledge the Creator,rely on Him Alone and sincerely start studying and pondering His message(Qoran..).
Then stay loyal and take the journey as it comes to you,through the trials of your Creator to bring out your true convictions,like are you really serious,do you stay loyal and patient,do you want to learn by listening,obeying,striving,doing your best and acquiring GOD s attributes in your life of honesty,caring,peaceful,forgiving...(traits of a true believer) to the best of your ability as human and applying them towards your fellow humans.
GOD has promised certainty for these true believers( they use their intellect,choice and perseverance/suffering/Jihad...) .
In short the path is difficult at the start up to a certain point then ,with GOD s help it becomes easy as your real self(soul) is growing more and more.
Your purpose depends on your convictions and sincerity.Do you want your Creator or other than?
Other than your Creator there is no purpose ,all is an illusion.
My own understanding. Each has his/her own purpose. Each will find out their own reason for their creation. A collective answer will be known by all of us at GOD s.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
God created logic and reason. We choose not to worship statues because we know they can't do anything. We choose not to worship jesus because we know a "God" cannot be humiliated and killed like that. We choose not to worship an animal because they are inferior to us on an intellectual level or at least on a consciousness level.
Now the Quran states God does not need anything but he created humans to serve him. Does this sentence make sense to anyone? We as mere humans cannot serve God is my conclusion. Our purpose is not to serve as we can't do that, and God does not need it.
I suppose you have the answer above. We as humans can choose. But for other creatures, this is not the case. Perhaps, that's why God "urges" us to "serve"?I also wonder whether there are other unknown things which have similar free will.
I have problem with certain official words found in the Quran. The way they are officially viewed makes it difficult to quickly understand what God actually instructs. Through practice, however, it is possible to get to real meanings.
Our purpose must be something else, people here on this forum are stuck trying to modernize the Quran and argue over small details. BUT the bigger picture, if not the most important piece of knowledge which no one here seems to think about and reflect upon is WHY ARE WE HERE!
We are born to die, everything we have, or did or accomplished will be useless once we die. People that create a purpose for themselves like building an empire, becoming wealthy, having a family are deluded of the true reality. What is the true reality, I don't know but I will find it.
I have gone through existential crisis also.
The funny thing is that once we begin to follow what is in the Quran and know God the idea that we won't live forever becomes a great strength for self determination and progress because the mind is no more worried about worldly things like rejection, shyness and the ability to be lazy.
It goes something like this "So what if someone laughed at me? So what if a person hates me? I am here to just do my part and get out when the call comes".
Reel, is God in control of everything?
God is certainly in control of everything. But you can tell him how you want it in your life.
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When God said we created the humans and jinn to serve or worship me.
Please explain this Ayah 39/53;
Say, "O My servants (Ya 3ebadi) who have transgressed against themselves , do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."
God is telling the Mohamed to say to the people My servants/slaves/worshippers. This single Ayah contradicts the whole Quran and the message of the Quran. No matter how we would like to sugarcoat it, it's right there infront if us.
Reel, if God is in control how is it that people will be punished for wrong doings when he has total control. Now if you're going to tell me freewill and we make our own choices thus this concludes that God is not in control. In the Quran it states that God leads people in the right path and misleads others. He is the creator, how can he create bad people and punish them for being bad? There is so much inconsistencies and contradictions in the sectarian interpretations of the Quran. Did God know they were going to be bad people? If yes he knows the future then wtf is he testing? Unless he doesn't know the future then again contradiction.
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Anoushirvan, I came here to reassure myself that I have made the right decision. The sectarian interpretations of the Quran will lead me nowhere, at least not to what I want to find out. To reassure myself that the way of thinking of Quran alone muslims is just like Sunni/Shia muslims just a little better.
Mmmh, I see...Indeed, most Quran-alone people do not have a significant understanding of Qur'an than Sunni & Shia muslims.
When I come here, I often have harsh discussions about that. They consider having rejected hadiths as the biggest achievement and stop there, whereas it should have been the starting point.On the other hand, not wanting to quote Qur'an doesn't make sense here.
The problem is the term "3budu" should not be translated as 'worship' nor 'serve' as in the English sense it can be very misleading. 'Worship' is generally associated with 'idol-worship'.
I believe '3budu' is something like 'subsumption' and then 'alignment' to the ONE Being, i.e. Allah.
Finally !
Indeed, verse 51.56 doesn't have the meaning I read in most messages above.
3abada doesn't mean serve because it doesn't make concrete sense.
3abada doesn't mean worship in this verse, because of the next verse
5157 I need no provisions from them, nor do I need them to give food.
Worshiping a god is done differently by different people, some give offerings of food, others give sacrifices, others songs, others prayers, and so on.
Both verses say God expects something else from us.
It is God who makes offerings, not us.Actually, to understand the meaning of 3abada, we must understand the meaning of the word Rabb.
Most of the time, the word Rabb is understood as Lord, with right of life and death over us, and as being a synonym of Allah.
Qur'an-alone people often do not understand differently than Sunni & Shia muslims on this point.But this, though, doesn't fully capture the meaning of Rabb.
Rabb comes from Hebrew and judaism where it means rabbi, i.e. a teacher in religious science. In Islam, this would mean ulema, fqih, or mullah.
When Jews were fleeing religious persecutions in Europe, they sought refuge in Muslim countries. But there, they were forbidden to take the title of rabbis, since Rabb was an attribute of God. This is a clear indication that both words in Hebrew and Arabic mean the same.In Maqays al-Lughat of Ibn Faris, here is what can be found about Rabb (http//baheth.info/all.jsp?term=%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%A
. . .
. .The one who possesses but also the one who repairs, reforms, improves something.
the Rabb is the one who improves something, with a notion of healing. Spiritual healing is a major topic in Qur'an.A bit further, Ibn Faris writes
"Allah is the Rabb because He expands the conditions of His creation".In Arabic, a breeder is called "marbi", same root as Rabb.
So in Qur'an, the Rabb is the one who has power to make his 3ibad grow, i.e. to make them grow spiritually.
In Qur'an, it is said that only Allah has this power to make people spiritually grow and heal them from spiritual confusion.So the 3ibad are actually the students of the Rabb by analogy of the servants who follow their master.
So when it is said 51.56 I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to follow Me (Liya`budni), this has to be understood in the sense that mankind and the Jinn must only follow Allah as Teacher of religious science so that they are cured by Him from spiritual confusion.
And verse 51.57 says it is not mankind and the Jinn who nourish Allah but the converse. -
When God said we created the humans and jinn to serve or worship me.
Please explain this Ayah 39/53;
Say, "O My servants (Ya 3ebadi) who have transgressed against themselves , do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."
God is telling the Mohamed to say to the people My servants/slaves/worshippers. This single Ayah contradicts the whole Quran and the message of the Quran. No matter how we would like to sugarcoat it, it's right there infront if us.
There are several wrong interpretation of the words in the Quran. For some of us (sorry, I can't include all), serving equals to doing what we are required of as humans. Go to the story of Adam and you will find before humans were savages. With Adam in the story, we hear of us becoming civilized. That's what we are to do be.
One thing many people don't know is that there are some things that are not part of our nature, but humans do it anyways. Killing is an example.
Sure God tells us that killing can be done only in defense. Strangely, the verses are implemented in the arms force of US. It has to be observed strictly or the soldiers get in trouble. They admit that it lessens the burden of guilt because it makes them focus on only those who want to kill them. But some ended up killing the innocent people and that didn't go down their brain softly. They say that murdering is not in humans' nature. I hope you get the point.
Let me tell you that the word prostration as physical movement does not fit the other verses in which we are told earth and some other things prostrate. I have seen threads after threads using the magicians from Moses' time being used to justify that prostration indeed is physical. But I have felt prostration of the heart and bowing of the head in total respect and love without the use of body movement!
Reel, if God is in control how is it that people will be punished for wrong doings when he has total control. Now if you're going to tell me freewill and we make our own choices thus this concludes that God is not in control. In the Quran it states that God leads people in the right path and misleads others. He is the creator, how can he create bad people and punish them for being bad? There is so much inconsistencies and contradictions in the sectarian interpretations of the Quran. Did God know they were going to be bad people? If yes he knows the future then wtf is he testing? Unless he doesn't know the future then again contradiction.
You may need to check the meaning of ruh. We are airy. We are changeable. God owns the natural law through which our changeable nature makes things happen. Deep down inside, we know what is right and wrong. Even God has given us a book explaining what is right and wrong. Still we may ask for the wrong to happen. We may ignore that there are others who may take action against it. We may ignore that the environment itself has its own laws and do the wrong anyways. Then the consequence programmed into the natural law occurs to us. Let's not underestimate the power of mind either. It can make things happen, both good and bad. Unfortunately, everyone has a mind. So although we may think of ourselves as immune to consequence of our bad doings, there might be some victim our there making his mind to work in a way that we get punishment for our crimes.
Do the experiment yourself to see it all.
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No matter what God is, God would obviously have a reason, purpose or agenda for developing a world like this. What could that be? Would it be constructive and developmental? Would it be meaningless?
If someone, God or not, created something they would create something which had some true meaning. You would not wish to create something which had no intellectual value to yourself. The Earth that we know is an artistic masterpiece if we speak solely about design. This could obviously be an act of creativity, but creativity is not something limited to God but it is innate in all humans. However, standard animals possess no ability to be creative beyond their "programming" to do things, and thus we share something with God.
Is this the deepest explanation for our existence? No, it is not. We are more than someone's desire to be creative.
Humans on Earth, we are one of a kind as there is no other type of bodily being in possession of an ability for abstract thinking and so we are the only ones able to be creative and create art, music for example. Humans have been creative in all sorts of ways creating machines based on the dynamics of this Earth. It is like someone giving you components and you use the components to assemble something of your own imagination which works by design to accomplish something. This invention is a result of intelligence and humans are the the only sentient beings on Earth.
Is this the true intelligence? No, it is only very basic level. Most of the scientific development is the result of using someone else's work, solid information. Actually storing information is quite low level in sophistication.
True intelligence is being alive mentally, increasing the personal consciousness and one's soul, in control over one's own inner drive rather than driven by mere instincts. What we are talking about is attaining an own strong and independent being. That is true intelligence.
True intelligence is choosing actions based on a deeply conscious awareness and not letting them be dictated by a set of different hormones. Achieving this is development beyond what is bound to the Earthly and this is the hardest challenge of them all.
Life is nothing without a challenge, without stimulus so to say and it is experiences which cause to shape us into who we are. Question is if we fall prey to the challenges or master them.
God's little imposed test is this Create a believable world setting and place an unknowing independent lifeform in it deluded to its real purpose and then silently observe the outcome. What could God possibly intend with this? God is intending both create independent life and also shaping highly intelligent specimens in the meantime. It is not hard to understand it requires immense intelligence to master the delusion of this Earth and those who do become shaped into perfection are also able beings, very potent.
Everyday living including its "natural habits" (natural to the primitive primate) is something which douses the spirit of the soul. The one and only way towards completion is fighting everything which makes you Homo sapiens, for this is not the real you. Primarily this is being Homo sapiens
- Hierarchical desire
- Material desire
- Desire for vanity
- Desire for obsession or occupation
- Desire for kinship
- Desire to dominate
- Desire for sexual stimulation
- Greed
- Bending the truth
- Jealousy
That is behavior which you think you need, consciously or unconsciously. You may be jealous, but you are too stuck in your mind to see it as no relevance beyond your limited reality. You may bend the truth because of the other drives, being false is basically a consequential instinct of Homo sapiens. You greed and so you dubiously acquire things. You feel aroused and so you remedy the condition by answering the feeling and you consider it natural so you do nothing to resist it. You do strive to win in games and other challenges for satisfaction. You prioritize your own kin and only those you have something in common with, like nationality, culture or religion. You become absorbed in your career, hobbies etc. You live according to your own vanity. You strive to own just for the sake of owning, hoarding and impressing on others (highly related to hierarchy). And finally, you seek a hierarchical position in society; imagined, self-proclaimed or societal.
Your body is the test imposed on your soul. It is your game, your challenge to overcome. The body has the Satan, constant "whispers".
So to answer the question "what is the reason of creation?" The main reason is to develop independent self-existing conscious beings. The Earth is to test that functionality to independent reasoning and coming to intelligent conclusions, outwitting the deception the Earth provides, i.e the illusion a human soul is somehow confined to bodies to live and that they are born and they die on it. The hard deception is there because the expectations are high for what beings qualify to set criteria. Quality over quantity is clearly a priority. Only very subtle hints and assistance is provided and not to make things less complicated also misguidance is offered as a test of intelligence and reasoning. Worship and primitive ritualism is part of that misleading. So-called holy books are revealed with an intentionally erroneous language associated with it.
What matters? Your intelligence and depth of soul. The risk for many is being stuck in meaningless doctrines, particularly those which embrace something which reinforces the instinctive calls. It is who you are which matters, that you are someone at all and that you grow mentally. All that really matters is the Ten Commandments, the Decree which will last until the end of time. You could do with only that list of ten if you are wise, not needing a book. Very little was written by the time of Abraham and that man understood it was about being sound (muslem). No books required for the sane who chase after the right things. And the sane does look for the background to why there are these Commandments instead of just accepting to follow them blindly like a zealous Gods law. Following the Commandments wholeheartedly and with strong determination and understanding helps in staying away from what the body drives towards instinctively and which douses the spirit of the soul (self).
God is with you when you decide to do like God does for God is in you already but the undeveloped cannot see it and share the control it provides. The body clouds the God who is in you already. The only way to sense and know God is to be like God. And with that comes deepened understanding and realization like a letter by the mail. But it is YOU who have to decide, God is not your irresponsible daddy holding your hand in all that you do so you do not gain own independence like the ignorant father who does not let their children find things out on their own. You are you and you are in control over what you do by the amount of autonomous control given to you here. But God does accompany you when you explore yourself what to do and then the holy spirit is with you to realize everything.
Now you have the answer to the reason for this creation.
What matters is who you are and that you are.
It risks being so called polytheism in the eyes of people of this forum, but you by the spirit of God is growing into your own potent being which is independently existing, however there is only one foundation of all existence and you and everyone else is sharing the one Oneness usually called God or Rabb in Arabic. You are a sizeable expression of that oneness depending on your own self-realization. You cannot escape that God/Rabb is your origin and to God/Rabb you are always related like clusters to a hub. But God is nothing which is primitive and seeks some kind of worship or similar vanity. God wishes for you to discover yourself to be like him/her, his/her image and existing as your own very person. Nothing honors God more than using the superior spirit which you were bestowed with and outwitting the guile of this Earth and showing you can be your own person and not one projected by a programmed beast with its set of instincts.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
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So when it is said 51.56 I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to follow Me (Liya`budni), this has to be understood in the sense that mankind and the Jinn must only follow Allah as Teacher of religious science so that they are cured by Him from spiritual confusion.
And verse 51.57 says it is not mankind and the Jinn who nourish Allah but the converse."Follow" seems OK but I think is not not sufficient to reflect 3budu .
Perhaps "acquiesce" could be more appropriate.
acquiesce = to assent tacitly; submit or comply silently or without protest; agree; consent
Note acquiesce's synonyms
accede, cave in, comply, concur, conform, give in, go along, accept, accommodate, adapt, adjust, agree, allow, approve, buy, consent, ditto, jibe, okay, pass, reconcile, set, submit, subscribe, yield, bow to, -
When God said we created the humans and jinn to serve or worship me.
Please explain this Ayah 39/53;
Say, "O My servants (Ya 3ebadi) who have transgressed against themselves , do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."
God is telling the Mohamed to say to the people My servants/slaves/worshippers. This single Ayah contradicts the whole Quran and the message of the Quran. No matter how we would like to sugarcoat it, it's right there infront if us.
We can used the terms 'servants,' 'slaves' 'followers' 'acquiescers ' and the likes and avoid the term 'worshipers.'
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Theres the will of God that runs everything, its for peace and justice. Following or serving is just to be in union with that will, its a difficult thing to do, if we are not a listener(kafir) and without his blessing.
This is my idea and that i think of Quran's message and also that of many prophets in the past.
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Theres the will of God that runs everything, its for peace and justice. Following or serving is just to be in union with that will, its a difficult thing to do, if we are not a listener(kafir) and without his blessing.
This is my idea and that i think of Quran's message and also that of many prophets in the past.
In a way it is, one has to subsume one's Will within the WILL of Allah, i.e. contracted and to flow in alignment with the WILL of Allah as in in the Quran-only.
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Man of Faith, The missing part or I would say is what's most important to me. Is why would God want us to develop? What does he gain? Could he have created us perfect from the beginning? I don't care much about our reason as much as God's reason for creating us!
He created everything, a very complicated world and what's outside. He couldn't just create a bunch of developed spirits from the beginning and save us all the troubles?
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Man of Faith, The missing part or I would say is what's most important to me. Is why would God want us to develop? What does he gain? Could he have created us perfect from the beginning? I don't care much about our reason as much as God's reason for creating us!
He created everything, a very complicated world and what's outside. He couldn't just create a bunch of developed spirits from the beginning and save us all the troubles?
"To suffer is to appreciate its absence.
To suffer is to care.
To suffer is to tutor empathy.
To suffer is to know loss.
To suffer is to know pain.
To suffer is to know despair.
To know loss, pain, and despair is to understand the preciousness of life, love, and hope.
Your trials and tribulations were often difficult, quite unlucky, and sometimes unfair; however, you persevered through life in that you tried to overcome your burdens.
On the grand scale, life on earth is but an inhalation and now you may exhale in peace for you understand better than most what is worth cherishing."
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"To suffer is to appreciate its absence.
To suffer is to care.
To suffer is to tutor empathy.
To suffer is to know loss.
To suffer is to know pain.
To suffer is to know despair.
To know loss, pain, and despair is to understand the preciousness of life, love, and hope.
Your trials and tribulations were often difficult, quite unlucky, and sometimes unfair; however, you persevered through life in that you tried to overcome your burdens.
On the grand scale, life on earth is but an inhalation and now you may exhale in peace for you understand better than most what is worth cherishing."
This is beautiful, thnks for sharing.
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I don't care much about our reason as much as God's reason for creating us!
He created everything, a very complicated world and what's outside. He couldn't just create a bunch of developed spirits from the beginning and save us all the troubles?
He could, but there would not be any satisfaction in that.
To create an independent creation that can develop themselves into like him.
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Peace Rekkd.
You say,quote
He created everything, a very complicated world and what's outside. He couldn't just create a bunch of developed spirits from the beginning and save us all the troubles?What does"developed spirits" mean?
GOD only knows how to develop a spirit without creating robots!!!!Let us say a "developed spirit" will ask GOD about its choice,how can that be done?Is GOD going to force this development on it?
So many things we do not really know or understand yet!!!
Or are you going to say GOD forced us to be humans for example? I would say that GOD says we choose the "Amana" i.e this is our choice. A long story that will become clear at GOD s.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Man of Faith, The missing part or I would say is what's most important to me. Is why would God want us to develop? What does he gain? Could he have created us perfect from the beginning? I don't care much about our reason as much as God's reason for creating us!
He created everything, a very complicated world and what's outside. He couldn't just create a bunch of developed spirits from the begin
And who tells you that He has not already created that? that and many more things, ingfinite creations?
But if he has created that thing you want and do not find, it is not us.
So what are you going to do?
You and everybody and everything else will have to make do with what God has made to be him, her or it. No escaping that.
Fine that you want to find God's reasons, but God is the ultimate reason, He wants, He creates. BUT he tells as that He has created everything with the balance. That much has the told us.
So we know there is a a balance. We will not be cheated out of anything and if we accept it we will find satisfaction, ultimate satisfaction? What is then there to be displeased about? The suffering? Suffering with a purpose is bearable and when something is not bearable we faint or we breakdown. But there will be a balance, we will be duly comprensated for everything if we willingly accept God's terms.By the way I will quote the answer gien to me by a very young person a long time ago which impressed me for its logic and wisdom. I asked him what we he would have liked to be if he were not a human person. He answered
-The thing a I was if I were not a human person.
Match that.
Salaam