Note on 4:34 and Sam Gerrans.
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Makaveli,
Not only does Sam Gerrans translate daraba as beat, but unfortunately he also believes that the traditionalist understanding of so-called "virgins in paradise" is correct. But his understanding of "virgins in paradise" can easily be disproved by using the quran alone. Another youtuber (Quran centric) has made a good video about "houries in the quran", and in his video he has disproved the traditionalist understanding of "virgins in paradise." Do a search on youtube, if you are interested in watching his video.
Never follow men, brother. No man has a perfect understanding of all the verses in the quran. Therefore, if a believer starts to follow men, he will be disappointed. He might be led astray too. The Quran never tells you to follow men. It tells you to follow God alone. But it's okey to support other believers and learn from them, though. Some of Sam Gerrans videos and articles are good (e.g. his video about purity). Although his understanding of the Quran is not perfect (like all other scholars), he is seemingly a man with a good heart. He appears to have a strong work ethic too. In terms of bringing the Quran and its message to a wider audience, he has probably achieved more than most users on FM will ever achieve.
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Makaveli,
Not only does Sam Gerrans translate daraba as beat, but unfortunately he also believes that the traditionalist understanding of so-called "virgins in paradise" is correct. But his understanding of "virgins in paradise" can easily be disproved by using the quran alone. Another youtuber (Quran centric) has made a good video about "houries in the quran", and in his video he has disproved the traditionalist understanding of "virgins in paradise." Do a search on youtube, if you are interested in watching his video.
Never follow men, brother. No man has a perfect understanding of all the verses in the quran. Therefore, if a believer starts to follow men, he will be disappointed. He might be led astray too. The Quran never tells you to follow men. It tells you to follow God alone. But it's okey to support other believers and learn from them, though. Some of Sam Gerrans videos and articles are good (e.g. his video about purity). Although his understanding of the Quran is not perfect (like all other scholars), he is seemingly a man with a good heart. He appears to have a strong work ethic too. In terms of bringing the Quran and its message to a wider audience, he has probably achieved more than most users on FM will ever achieve.
Peace,
His translation is pretty much that of traditional. He translates 538 as cut off hands although there could be other indications here according to the social setting or concrete situation.
I am aware of his views on hoorines, I actually wanted to bring this up here too, but decided not to, since this thread is more focused on his 434 . He also seems inconsistent in his views on what he percieves as literal and what he views as metaphorical. For instance, his comment under 812 (comment no. 2770) talks about the possibility of this part being not literal, but nonetheless in many other places he translates verses quite literally, including the 538 and 434.
He is not looking for truth either. For instance, read his comments under 532. He basically says I don't need to know what I don't understand. That is one major difference of his work compared to traditionalists, since the latter would also use hadiths to explain any verse, he, however, simply says I don't need to know. Wow...okay, thanks I guess. We don't need to know, very simple.
I disagree that he is a man of a good heart. From my perspective, he's an arrogant person who sees everything from his conspirological prism and in case you disagree with him the outcome is known.
I agree that he invested quite a bit in his work, but that does not make him superior to other translators or people in general. His contextual analysis of many verses, including 434 is clearly poor, as you can see he overlooks wide amount of problems associated with daraba in 434. Instead of being arrogant he could look more into the issue. Not to mention he clearly HAS time to discuss the issue. He claims to be super busy and stuff, he's also planning to overthrow tyranny and so on. But in reality, when I had him friended on FB, he makes youtube video and comments on the media articles daily. If he has time to comment on the media and spread his conspiracy theories, he clearly has time to answer few simple questions.
He is not a critical thinker either, as long as you support his views he might look like he's thinking critically, but once you start using your own head he shows his very secterian nature. Look at his video where he speaks about how he started translating the Qur'an. He also speaks a little about his background there, which is Christian. He was never skeptical from the beggining (such as when he constantly emphasises "Think for yourself" ideology), he was Christian from the start, according to him, and for years he was devoted to Christian movements. So his "think for yourself" is only about rejecting one tradition and accepting the other. That is not thinking for yourself or thinking critically.
I would not sit at the same table with people like Gerrans. I don't care about good part of his views, I abandoned his work alltogether, no matter how good some other parts of it may be. I do not, however, in no case tell others to do the same, I just wanted to reveal his true personality to others. And I believe that autorship has a lot to do with how we percieve certain information.
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Peace Makaveli.
I see you are disappointed. However,what is wrong with all of us seeking a uniting path?
Let me elaborate more
No two people can share the same beliefs in all its details.
We are bound,by GOD s definition/analysis/... of us humans,by different upbringing,doctrines,character,traditions,...Those who are chasing the truth sincerely,will slowly realise that the best way to deal with humans is to persevere at keeping going and carrying on the chasing of the truth.Unfortunately,those who stop and think they have the truth will build barriers between themselves and the others!!!!And back to square one,divisions and holding on to dogmas. It is their loss and we pray for their guidance as well as ours.
I am finding ,the best way is to keep concentrating on ourselves,using our patience and forgiveness by seeking GOD s help,and keep an open mind on those who we think have erred or have become arrogant or... All those who are peaceful with their fellow humans,are respectful and do good deeds ,deserve a chance with GOD,so why not with us.
It is not by our wishes or the wishes of whoever thinks they have the truth that GOD rewards or sanctions His servants. It is entirely up to GOD Alone.
In short I am saying ,forgive and forget and move on, You seem like a sincere guy who is searching for your truth.
My opinion brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Makaveli.
Peace good logic,
I agree that believers should not blindly follow people and keep adequate distance, and should instead focus on the right discourse. I did not create this topic to create false or negative image for Gerrans. Nothing from me here is of my personal opinion or does not match reality. At the same time, people should be careful when choosing what to believe, especially people that are inexperienced in Arabic. There is too much of information out there, including Quranic. Sam Gerrans obviously has some influence within Qur?an alone agenda, but from my personal experience this guy does not spread righteous information , and does in fact contrary.
Thank you for your kind words.
Peace. -
Peace Makaveli.
Thank you for your clarifying post.
Let me give an example of what I mean by sometimes we need to be patient and forgiving. That does not mean compromising or accepting illogical and false views.I travelled to London yesterday(Sunday 2/9/2017) . I wanted to visit the "speakers corner" in Hyde park to have a look.
I found plenty of people "selling" their religion. Some Jewish, quite few Christians ,plenty of "Traditional Muslims" and the odd humanist,other....
I got there around 1130 AM, the place was quiet at first,then it started to get busy ,the place filled up by about 200 PM .
I found that most speakers/debaters had their own agenda and were specifically wanting to stay debating /preaching their own set beliefs.
It was a new experience for me,looking at all these people with "my mind is made up" agendas,almost deaf to logical/searching questions from others.
I was mainly feeling the "atmosphere" and listening to different topics being discussed.
What struck me is how some have developed a "skill" to hijack the conversation and back each other up on false premises and assumptions.Sometimes the person leading/starting the debate has friends who are protective and support his views by undermining/deflecting the conversation when the other guy hits the nerve with a good question.Anyway,the 5 hours that I spent there highlighted for me the difficulty we face in changing ways/attitudes of people by any other means except to give the example of being the best we can according to the ethics of GOD s instructions/advice in Qoran.
It was interesting and I will go again GOD willing.
May be I will even take part in these debates,but hopefully with an open mind .By the way,there was no Qoran Alone or monotheist individuals there,or at least I did not meet/see any.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace good logic,
That was indeed an interesting experience of yours. When people are literally selling their views and they believe that their product is the best, the most right, the most enlightening, it really shows how complicated is to find truth. Back then before printing press it was probably easy to convince people of any heresy because most ordinary people did not have access to information (libraries and universities). Now that is vice versa, people do have access to anything, but the downside is that we live in the age of informational freedom and we are basically sinking in the informational flow, which is seldom good, because you never know what kind of truth may in fact be positive for your own wellbeing as well as for community as whole. It is hard to determine which is best now and obviously the marked is filled with all sort of modern clerics and people who believe they are the most knowledgeable on the subject.
Arrogance is something which should be in fact minimized, especially now because there are already countless of views on anything. There are plenty of people who would argue against Gerrans, as well as there are many supports of him. He is a somewhat prominent figure, nonetheless. But the problem with Quran alone community is that there is seldom consensus among its members on many issues, from salat to siyam (fasting) to community building to household and marital issues and so on. And there are obviously people who would say that they have done work and therefore you either praise them for this, or get blocked and be called a talker.
I understand that patience is in fact one of the strongest monotheistic virtue not all of us can demonstrate. And I fully agree with you that no matter what circumstances are, it is best to keep being patient with whatever happens and leave the rest to God. But I can also tell that Quran alone for the most part relies on logic and reason and then on linguistic and contextual analysis. And you are never sure which translation is the best one, so in the end all you have to do is logic and reason, because you cant rely on the side-literature. That is why it is best to analyze all of the most prominent players in Quran alone community, to analyze it with open heart and mind, and to see if they are good or if they spread negative message. And if they do spread negative, see why, because I still think that bitter truth is better than sweet lie. It is not because of 434 that Ive approached Gerrans, but because HOW he did go about this verse. Refering to the old Christian traditional books and then saying that this is contextually correct, because it is not consistent with many other verses. In addition, the way he went about me kindly approaching him on the issue Ive already described.
So yes, I agree that no matter how effective is one at choosing (or filtering) how to approach all sorts of information (most of which is pointless or negative), there will always be surplus of all kinds of teachings, good and bad. But to filter what is right from wrong (which is cultural and subjective) one has to follow common discourse, which to me personally is peace and patience, which I personally strive to follow, with varied success.
The reason why there are often no Quran alone people at these debates is because there is no community or business within this movement, which is actually good. All these churches and traditional Muslims they approach it like a business. Their books tell them, at least that is correct for Muslims, that if they manage to convert someone into Islam, they get reward from God. You can google do I get reward convert Islam or similar keywords, and see how many topics are there of Muslims asking other Muslims if they will get their reward if they made a friend of theirs accept Islam. Same with many Christian movements, they are interested in getting people among their ranks, because they also get money from them. There is no Quran alone community, organization, or government. And I think there will never be, not in the nearest future at least. I am not sure if this is perfectly good or bad. I still fail to understand numerous community-related injunctions in the Quran, which are obviously addressed to the community, such as how to go about adulterers or thieves, or aggressors. These verses are made for communities and not for ordinary individuals. But I simply fail to see the Quran alone country or the state. Maybe a commune, but a commune cannot effectively stand against thousands of soldiers with AKs. And I honestly cant imagine any of you guys actually punishing an adulterer with hundred lashes. Something must be either terribly misunderstood or the Quranic project has failed from the beginning (historically).
I apologize for somewhat long post heh.
Peace.
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Makaveli,
Not only does Sam Gerrans translate daraba as beat, but unfortunately he also believes that the traditionalist understanding of so-called "virgins in paradise" is correct. But his understanding of "virgins in paradise" can easily be disproved by using the quran alone. Another youtuber (Quran centric) has made a good video about "houries in the quran", and in his video he has disproved the traditionalist understanding of "virgins in paradise." Do a search on youtube, if you are interested in watching his video.
Never follow men, brother. No man has a perfect understanding of all the verses in the quran. Therefore, if a believer starts to follow men, he will be disappointed. He might be led astray too. The Quran never tells you to follow men. It tells you to follow God alone. But it's okey to support other believers and learn from them, though. Some of Sam Gerrans videos and articles are good (e.g. his video about purity). Although his understanding of the Quran is not perfect (like all other scholars), he is seemingly a man with a good heart. He appears to have a strong work ethic too. In terms of bringing the Quran and its message to a wider audience, he has probably achieved more than most users on FM will ever achieve.
Nicey nicey! bravo jedi sun
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Peace
In his translation of 1051 Gerrans uses fil to refer to something else other elephant. He writes "It is true that one of the meanings of fil is elephant. However, fil also means base, weak, weak in judgement.
I've failed to find other meanings of fil . Could someone please refer me to other possible translations and the root of phil ?
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Peace
In his translation of 1051 Gerrans uses fil to refer to something else other elephant. He writes "It is true that one of the meanings of fil is elephant. However, fil also means base, weak, weak in judgement.
I've failed to find other meanings of fil . Could someone please refer me to other possible translations and the root of phil ?
Fa-Ya-Lam = Weak and erroneous judgement or opinion, erring in judgement/insight, to magnify oneself and become like an elephant, showed a morose aspect, elephant, (it) increased, to become fat/big like an elephant, Heavy (or dull) and low, ignoble or mean, keeper/master of the elephant.
Peace.
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Fa-Ya-Lam = Weak and erroneous judgement or opinion, erring in judgement/insight, to magnify oneself and become like an elephant, showed a morose aspect, elephant, (it) increased, to become fat/big like an elephant, Heavy (or dull) and low, ignoble or mean, keeper/master of the elephant.
Peace.
Yeah found it in Lane's. Thanks.
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Regardless of what Gerrans thinks about this verse, I can't really see any other signification for the verb daraba when it has for object a person. If any of you people come from any sort of arabic speaking background, you would know that daraba in regards to someone never means something other than to hit the person. If it is taken to mean separate from a person, daraba certainly isn't the verb one would think of, hence why I think it is unfounded to claim some other meaning for this verse, as much as people might dislike it. If any of you is aware of some other instance in which the verb daraba used for a person means something other than hit him/her (not beat by the way), bring it forth. Just saying...
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Peace Lost.
If it has no other meaning in that verse,then please explain how to do the "daraba" and with what?
Because you cannot have that much ambiguity or leave it to "humans" to decide how and with what to "daraba"!!!!When GOD specifies a sanction in Qoran ,GOD always gives the how and with what.
Thank you.
Peace. -
Peace Lost.
If it has no other meaning in that verse,then please explain how to do the "daraba" and with what?
Because you cannot have that much ambiguity or leave it to "humans" to decide how and with what to "daraba"!!!!When GOD specifies a sanction in Qoran ,GOD always gives the how and with what.
Thank you.
Peace.Also, it is absolute nonsense, because that would mean that mere fear or suspicion entitles to "take action". The only permissive action in that case would be to try to ascertain.
Also, the aya is addressed to the believers at large. that is, it is the believers, men and women who collectively would suspect of fear something. Beat or strike, how or what. Lynch?
The whole 4.34 has been turned into nonsense and travesty. No wonder we keep lost.
Salaam
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I only said that I can't see how it could mean something other than hit, the flow of the verse would strongly point to that according to me, that's just how I see it. If you come from any arabic speaking background, it is frankly quite stupid to read the verse with some other meaning in mind and I tried very hard to do so. Notice how the object is directly refered to, it doesn't involve anything like seperate them FROM you or else. If we take it to mean hit, then going by quranic moral standards and from the context, I can only see something like spanking here. If understood this way, it is important to be aware of the fact that this is meant as a last ressort only and as a way to keep the marriage going, and is to be applied by believers only and not submitters, thus people whom fall under such a description. This really wouldn't be abuse in any kind...
Now if you have a hard time accepting that it could mean that, you would naturally try to force some other explanation but always keep in mind that this is god's book which claims to be clear and easy, not ambiguous... In the meanwhile, I never heard of daraba meaning something else when directly refering to someone.
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And I can clearly see that it does not mean"hit" or "spank" because of the context and a list of choices in that verse.
If it was 2hit2 or "spank" like you say,GOD would have specified.
As for Arabic,Qoran has many times set its own precedence on the language. Qpran use of Arabic is the example not man s use of the language.
"Daraba" has many meanings including Set an example of,leave alone,separate,..etc. Using the one in context/appropriate cannot be the "hit"or "spank".
Besides ,if there are choices why not choose the other straight forward alternatives?
My take on it.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Regardless of what Gerrans thinks about this verse, I can't really see any other signification for the verb daraba when it has for object a person.
To hit and to leave someone/something - both have objects and a verb. To hit, however, is seldom specified (with what? how? until when? why 435 talks about divorce procedure and what is the point of beating then?) Thare is nothing to hint "spanking" as a level of beating in any context.
Even Gerrans, being highly inconsistent on this verse, because he used his own bias when translating a verse, a comment under 434 clearly shows it, he just wanted it to say hit but did not have any contextual evidence to prove it. He used a term "spanking" just to lower the possible consequence of domestic violence, since there is a contex of "treat your wives with kindness". However, being ultimately inconsistent on 434, Gerrans missed clearly the part where he himself said that 434 is in the context of 429 as if two inviduals, man and women, are somehow obliged to 429 when they take oath of bond, which is clearly not the case, because marriage is a cultural bond, not all cultures rely on Qur'an. So his 434 in the context of 429 is not only wrong contextually, but he also cannot say that daraba is spanking as a light term for beating because there is nothing which would indicate the level of physical violence nor any textual context to symbolize it.
Just to give you an example where Gerrans is more careful with his root/word/meanings analysis. Please see his translation of sura 105, where he translates al-phyl not as an elephant, which is the most common translation, but weak in judgement, so as to support the other meaning of this verse outside of traditional interpretation. And I agree with him. However, he used the least possible meaning of al-phyl, whereas with daraba he clearly and as stated in his "analysis" under 434 used what he believes is all right contextually, when in fact it's not.
Gerrans did good work on some issues, such as zakat. But he sucks badly on 434. And that is only because he has his own bias associated with it. He wanted it to be spaking, even though if translated from physical position, it says beat, not spank.