9:7 A clue why Masjidi Haram may be not a building
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Peace folks wink ,
97 Kayfa yakoonu lilmushrikeena AAahdun AAinda Allahi waAAinda rasoolihi illa allatheena AAahadtum AAinda almasjidi alharami fama istaqamoo lakum faistaqeemoo lahum inna Allaha yuhibbu almuttaqeena
97 How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them for Allah doth love the righteous.
I believe there is discontinuity and the translation is not rational here. Its setting an exclusion to do a treaties except to a particular physical building. The idea from this verse I take is very simple Its saying that a treaty that binds Allah and His messenger, therefore his people can not be done except to a system, values.
The preposition "ainda" obviously has a few different meanings. Nonetheless the meaning is probably stronger with "with". As in at the level of Allah, meaning binding Allah and his Rasoul. Hence, it follows that
97 How can there be a treaty with Allah and his messenger EXCEPT with the masjid haram/ restrictions of the submission (to the one system)...
Comments and corrections?
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peace be upon you ash,
for awhile I've believed that "al masjid al haram" and "masjid" itself wasn't physical, the only evidence i have seen of it being a building is people translating "inda" as "at" which is clearly not the only translation, i think "by" would be a better translation then "with" which is actually "bi", sometimes there is even clear contrast to it being a physical building such as 1821, instead of building a building on the "children of the cave" they take on their "masjid" which was in 1814-15, i could debate every sign regarding the word "masjid" which was tiresome study that i once undertook with a lot of doubts of it not being physical, but the correct translations clearly show it is not physical such as "ma" not meaning "place" but "a state of" which is simple arabic
peace
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Peace be upon you Idris,
What was your conclusion? I did not quite follow your conclusion. One of my areas of investigation is to determine what is physical what is allegory. You are right though it requires a wider study.
However, one must consdier there is a discontinuity in the logic in that translation. What is the purpose of a treaty he held by a physical building? What does that teach us? He is setting an exclusion to those people who he made a treaty by the building and denied the treaty to those who came after? Do you follow my reasoning?
You are right about "with" being "be" it needs a little more thought granted.
Peace D
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peace be upon you ash,
Peace be upon you Idris,
What was your conclusion? I did not quite follow your conclusion. One of my areas of investigation is to determine what is physical what is allegory. You are right though it requires a wider study.
my conclusion is about the same as yours, i have seen several translations of it in a nonphysical way though in different forms
aidid safar (first to really do a study of this at all i think)-sanctioned submission
hafeez kazi-restricted acts of compliance
ayman-institution/implimentation of hearing and obeying the forbidden
yours-restrictions of the submission
truth-awareness of the forbidden was his translation i think
three of them suggest the "exceptions" to an order from The God, such as we are to go to war as a "masjid" but only in self defense or in the cause of justice are "al masjid al haram", that makes sense at some points but I agree with Ayman's view which makes more sense in the context of all the related signs
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Salam brothers,
The Ayah has a specific date to it because it contains a past tense "AAahadtum". Therefore, it happened in the past and is talking about a specific occasion. Therefore the Masjid Haram stands as it is, a physical space and not necessarily a building
Salam
Hussein
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The Ayah has a specific date to it because it contains a past tense "AAahadtum". Therefore, it happened in the past and is talking about a specific occasion. Therefore the Masjid Haram stands as it is, a physical space and not necessarily a building
Salam Hussein,
We know it happened in the past, most of the quran is in the past tense and surely it is talking about a special occasion, or under certain conditions. Hence unless we look at it any other way you have to come to the conclusion that the usefulness of this verse has ended.
And, the masjid haram can not stand as it is until we established what it means in the quran. Unless one goes to extra quranic sources ...
Wasalam.
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Salam brothers,
I am glad that we agree that the AYAH talks about an event that happened in the past and about a specific location. The lesson of the Ayah still stands and that is related to deals between muslims and unbelievers and how to approach them.
The Qur'an talks about Egypt in the Moses story. Egypt is still Egypt. The Qur'an here talks about the Masjid Alharam. It is a location, probably in Mecca. We can still have the lesson in the AYAH without having to create a new meaning for Masjid Alharam.
According to my reading of Qamoos Muheet.
S-J-D show sign or signs of submission
MASJID Place where you do that.
Masjid Alharam points to a specific place because the AL identifies it as the place the Sacred/forbidden/.Salam
Hussein
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God's blessing on all,
To go to extra-koranic sources is not bad. As the Koran is not a dictionary that would help us understand the word the way Muhammad and his people would have used it. That in turn would help us understand how the Koran meant it as it was reveal in their language.
What all of you have been doing is inventing religious interpretations of the word. You have been focusing on what the word can mean in an allegorical sense. But you have to understand what the word means in a literal sense first to get the allegorical. If you are trying to understand how the Koran uses the word masjid, first investigate how the word is used in Classical Arabic, focusing on how it may have been used in Muhammad's day, before the muslims, before Islam.
As far as I know it is 'a place of worship' or a 'sanctuary.' Something even the pagans shared. When haraam is placed after masjid it becomes 'sacred sanctuary' which I often just transate as sanctuary because sanctuary already carries this meaning of 'sacred.'
Ma in Arabic is definitely 'place' and that is without a doubt. Matbakh, mat&am, etc are all places, not states of mind. Places can be used allegorically for states of mind. For instance, 'I'm in a place of peace' when reffereing to one's mental state, or 'I'm on a battlefield' when refering to one's mental state. But these are allegorical sayings. a place of peace is literally and originallyl a place where there is no war. A battlefield is literally a battlefield.
Words have to be taken in their literal sense before they are looked at in an allegorical way. For instance 'light.' It is because we understand the literal meaning of 'light' that is serves so well when it is used allegorically.
In my opinion no-one here has been really searching for the way Muhammad, God bless him, and his parents and people used the word masjid, so that it can be better understood or even more broadly understood when we read the Koran. However, many people have been looking for allegorical meanings for the word masjid and trying to see if their allegorical meanings fit into every occurrence of the word.
This last method seems somewhat perverted to me. But that is my opinion.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam Anwar,
Thanks for your thoughts. This is what makes me ponder
In my opinion no-one here has been really searching for the way Muhammad, God bless him, and his parents and people used the word masjid
Is such a thing possible other than a try and test device? Just as we thought we were at the mercy of hadithians, are we now at the mercy at lexigropraphers?
I think you said it you can't be sure that this is a physical space or you can neither find its location in the reading.
Wasalam
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S-J-D show sign or signs of submission
MASJID Place where you do that.
Masjid Alharam points to a specific place because the AL identifies it as the place the Sacred/forbidden/.Salam akhy Hussein,
I may be slow on the uptake here but I can't see how the "AL" can't refer to a system of restrictions, as in AL Islam? Furthermore, I don't see how you arrive to a physical location. I am failing to follow the reasoning.
Wasalam
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Salam Akhy Al Shura,
I may be slow on the uptake here but I can't see how the "AL" can't refer to a system of restrictions, as in AL Islam? Furthermore, I don't see how you arrive to a physical location. I am failing to follow the reasoning.
I do apologize that I responded with haste. I think that you have two questions and I will try to answer them
1- AL means THE. Therefore when the AL is used in Arabic it means something that is known or that should be known, or something that is one of a Kind. Examples ALLAH is actually Al ELAH and that means THE GOD. Another example HUSSEIN is my name, however, when the name AL Hussein is used then it will mean somebody much better known as Hussein son of ALI or the late King Hussein of Jordan. So, my point here is that the use of the AL meant that AlMASJID ALHARAM was known to all the people at the time and that it was not something obscure of anykind. This is where I differ from many people here that are trying to redefine something, as if it were obscure, when the Qur'an says it was not.
2- Location Very much as Brother Anwar said. I will elaborate further. When you put MA in front of the letters of the root, then the meaning is the place where the root takes place. Examples
J-L-S means to sit MAJLIS means a place to sit
N-Z-L means Land somewhere/descend soemhwere MANZIL the place where you land and it means house or guesthouse.
S-J-D means show signs of submission (lower head, prostrate, etc..) MASJID is the place where you show the signs of submission.So, my conclusions are Masjid AlHARAM is and was a known place and it was a sanctuary for people to perform Sujood (as Borther Anwar said). Acknowledging this does not make someone a hadithi since this knowledge did not come from Hadith but from hundreds and may be thousands of people that saw the prophet there and performed with him the prayer in that same location.
Salam
Hussein
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peace be upon you,
sujood=submit, comply, hear and obey, I disagree with "ma" being "place"
The root word "sahara" means "to cast a spell" or "bewitch". When somebody is bewitched, the prefix "ma" is appended to the root which becomes the ground form of the verb "mashur". "Mashur" is not a physical building, but the state of being bewitched
in 1514-15 it says if The God were to open up a gate to the sky through which we could climb we would say our eyes had been bewitched
The root word "satara" means "to insribe" or "to write". When The God's book is prescribed with His permanent decrees a prefix of "ma" is appended to the root to become the ground form of "mastur". The book is not the "mastur" but what was prescribed or what was inspired is the "mastur"
522 says, "And a book inscribed." This means The God's commands are prescribed in the book.
The root word "shahid" means "to witness". When it is intended to show that the people are in a state of witnessing, a prefix of "ma" is appended to the root and it becomes the ground form of the verb "mashud". The place where the event took place is not the "mashud" but the state of witnessing is "mashud"
In 11103 it says "Indeed, these are the signs for those who fear the punishment in the ending. That will be the day when the people will be assembled and they will be "mashud"/witnessing."
The root word "sajana" means "to imprison". "Masjuni" signifies the serving of the term of imprisonment. "Masjuni" is not the prison.
The root word "sakana" means "to inhabit" or "to dwell". The act of dwelling is "maskun". The building where one dwells is called "buyut" or "house" and not "maskun".
"You commit not error if you enter the houses (buyutan) which are uninhabited (ghoiro maskun)." (2469)
Similarly, the word "sujud" in the reading (quran) means "submit". The word "masjid" found in 9107, 71, and 177 is simply a derative from the root. It does not represent a place where people go for prostrating. The plural of "masjid"-"masaajid"-simply means the people who are observing the submission/compliance/obediance.
These are only a few comparisons from a long list of examples in the reading (quran). The words "mashur", "mastur", "maskun", "masjid", "mashud", and "masjun" are verbs with the prefix of "ma" before their respective root words. They refer to the continuous state of being of the active particles or "doers of the act". An honest examination of the text of the reading can easily expose the mischevious distortion perpetruated by the Arabs to change the meaning of simple words.
Now that we have that out of the way I am prepared to debate and show you how that not only does "masjid" not fit into any of the signs (ayat) as being physical (regardless of the distortions in the words surrounding them to make it seem physical) but the reading also negates "masjid" being physical
peace
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peace be upon you,
now that I am off the subject of grammar at the moment I would like to discuss some logical points
S-J-D means show signs of submission (lower head, prostrate, etc..)
how are these signs of submission when anybody that can use their body in a functional manner can take part in these acts? even Hindus do these physical acts to their wooded gods, submission is obeying The God's laws and doing good deeds, not lowering your head down, even actors do this at the end of their plays
MASJID is the place where you show the signs of submission.
now that I got across what submission is, shouldn't we show submission to The God by obeying His laws wherever we go? does there need to be a designated area or building in which we do this? we can submit to The God without four walls, we don't need to have a building or designated place to feed the poor or help people
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Peace Idris,
I think you've delivered the knockout punch as far as grammatical plausibility goes. I think the nay-sayers will have to consider what you've stated carefully.
I'd suggested a long while ago that i believed s-j-d was 'acknowledging' (implying awareness as you pointed to above). There is obviouly the shades of humbleness, compliance and obedience and it's difficult to come up with an all encompassing word. The key element is that it is a state of mind and not a physical thing.
Now I'll leave with a quote that I think will prevail in this issue
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; and third, it is accepted as self-evident. --Arthur Schopenhauer
Peace.
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Salam all
The examples of Mashur and mastur are very good examples where MA does not necessarily mean a place. However they are different. In Mashur and Mastur, there is a U whereas in MASJID and MANZIL, there is an I. You will find that this example stands. The presesnce of Ma at the beginning and I or A in the second syllable usually indicate a place. The U in the second syllable, as you indicated reflect a state of a person. You cannot use the U rule to prove your point. Find me a word that sounds like MASJID that means different from place.
As for Sujood meaning submission
234
Wa-ith qulna lilmala-ikatiosjudoo li-adama fasajadoo illa ibleesa abawaistakbara wakana mina alkafireena
And behold, We said to the angels "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis he refused and was haughty He was of those who reject FaithDid the angels submit to Adam and how?
Salam
Hussein
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Salam again,
I am sorry that I missed some points that you guys have pointed
The root word "sakana" means "to inhabit" or "to dwell". The act of dwelling is "maskun". The building where one dwells is called "buyut" or "house" and not "maskun".
Actually, you can say MASKAN and it will mean house. Remember there is no U, as you pointed out.
The root word "shahid" means "to witness". When it is intended to show that the people are in a state of witnessing, a prefix of "ma" is appended to the root and it becomes the ground form of the verb "mashud". The place where the event took place is not the "mashud" but the state of witnessing is "mashud
"The place where the witnessing took place is called MASHAD as the city in IRAN.
An honest examination of the text of the reading can easily expose the mischevious distortion perpetruated by the Arabs to change the meaning of simple words.
I regret that you use this statement. It does not help your point and it does not weaken mine.
how are these signs of submission when anybody that can use their body in a functional manner can take part in these acts? even Hindus do these physical acts to their wooded gods, submission is obeying The God's laws and doing good deeds, not lowering your head down, even actors do this at the end of their plays
one can also say that they submit to GOD when they don't. Eventually, Only GOD knows who does what and who means it.
now that I got across what submission is, shouldn't we show submission to The God by obeying His laws wherever we go? does there need to be a designated area or building in which we do this? we can submit to The God without four walls, we don't need to have a building or designated place to feed the poor or help people
I have no problem with that. A masjid can be anywhere as well, it does not have to be a building. All earth can be a masjid.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; and third, it is accepted as self-evident. --Arthur Schopenhauer
I like it too. It applies to all of us and I hope that I did not ridicule anybody.
Salam
Hussein
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Salam all
The examples of Mashur and mastur are very good examples where MA does not necessarily mean a place. However they are different. In Mashur and Mastur, there is a U whereas in MASJID and MANZIL, there is an I. You will find that this example stands. The presesnce of Ma at the beginning and I or A in the second syllable usually indicate a place. The U in the second syllable, as you indicated reflect a state of a person. You cannot use the U rule to prove your point. Find me a word that sounds like MASJID that means different from place.
"mashad"/witnessing clearly proves you wrong on this, so does "maqam"/persistance, there are plenty but for the moment thats what came off the top of my head that don't apply to the "u rule" but still don't have anything to do with a place
As for Sujood meaning submission
234
Wa-ith qulna lilmala-ikatiosjudoo li-adama fasajadoo illa ibleesa abawaistakbara wakana mina alkafireena
And behold, We said to the angels "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis he refused and was haughty He was of those who reject FaithDid the angels submit to Adam and how?
Salam
Hussein
to respond to this I would have to address the concept of "malaika" and "sujood" all in one which is a big task to explain at the moment and will get in the way of the main topic at the moment which is the prefix "ma", so with this I respectfully ask for your patience until this discussion on "ma" is done and we can start a new thread on this, once we come to an agreement on "ma" then we can move on
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peace be upon you hlatif,
Actually, you can say MASKAN and it will mean house. Remember there is no U, as you pointed out.
provide with some examples in the reading where "maskan" can mean house, i havent seen any and "buyut" means house so at the moment I'm skeptical
The place where the witnessing took place is called MASHAD as the city in IRAN.
I don't care much for what any of the modern day arabs or even ancient arabs think of a word in the reading, it could be some help and a useful source to finding its meaning but ultimately the reading is the best testification to the correct meaning of a word and you didn't address it yet (different translation btw)
(11103) In this is a sign for he who fears the retribution of the ending. That is a Day to which all mankind will be gathered, and that is a Day which will "mashad"/witnessed.
I regret that you use this statement. It does not help your point and it does not weaken mine.
it wasn't supposed to help my point or weaken yours (The God's evidences did that D ) it was just a small summarization
one can also say that they submit to GOD when they don't. Eventually, Only GOD knows who does what and who means it.
the problem with this is that I mentioned nothing about people judging anybody's submission to The God, I contested the idea that mere bowing your head and prostrating on the ground is anything more then strange aerobics and signify submission to The God, anybody can do this, even actors at the end of a play bow, masjid is carrying out acts of submission to The God, not bowing and prostrating in a generic, "holy" excersise gym in which the "mosques" are nothing more then
peace
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Salam Idris,
provide with some examples in the reading where "maskan" can mean house, i havent seen any and "buyut" means house so at the moment I'm skeptical
Wakam ahlakna min qaryatin batiratmaAAeeshataha fatilka masakinuhum lam tuskan minbaAAdihim illa qaleelan wakunna nahnu alwaritheena
And how many populations We destroyed, which exulted in their life (of ease and plenty)! now those habitations of theirs, after them, are deserted,- All but a (miserable) few! and We are their heirs!MASAKIN is plural of MASKAN
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11103) In this is a sign for he who fears the retribution of the ending. That is a Day to which all mankind will be gathered, and that is a Day which will "mashad"/witnessed.The word in 1103 is MASHUD/MASHOOD and not MAHAD as you stated.
11103 Inna fee thalika laayatanliman khafa AAathaba al-akhirati thalikayawmun majmooAAun lahu alnnasu wathalikayawmun mashhoodunIf you look at what I wrote you will find that I said most and not all. This is the rule of the language
put a MA before the first letter of the first letter of the root and A or I between the second and third letters of the root, then you will end up with place of occurrence of the verb of the root, tool related to the verb, something related to the verb but not the verb itself. depending on what the root means.
Put MA at the beginning and U between the second and the third letter of the root, and it will mean that the verb has occurred on the person or the thing that was mentioned. MASTUR someone who was hidden and etc.
Those rules definitely apply to the word MASJID. You can change it, but that is not what it meant at the time the Qur'an was revealed. MAJID can never mean submissions according to this rule.
the problem with this is that I mentioned nothing about people judging anybody's submission to The God, I contested the idea that mere bowing your head and prostrating on the ground is anything more then strange aerobics and signify submission to The God, anybody can do this, even actors at the end of a play bow, masjid is carrying out acts of submission to The God, not bowing and prostrating in a generic, "holy" excersise gym in which the "mosques" are nothing more then
If someone bows to GOD and means it, what is wrong with that? Aren't you being judgemental here?
I don't care much for what any of the modern day arabs or even ancient arabs think of a word in the reading, it could be some help and a useful source to finding its meaning but ultimately the reading is the best testification to the correct meaning of a word and you didn't address it yet (different translation btw)
I need you to elaborate here. Are you saying that you will make a new meaning to the word, regardless of what the word meant to the ancient arabs? I may have misunderstood you though.
Salam
Hussein
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Salaams latif,
just for info
the word is Masjidun see page 248 of QD.
And you said
Put MA at the beginning and U between the second and the third letter of the root, and it will mean that the verb has occurred on the person or the thing that was mentioned. MASTUR someone who was hidden and etc.
So it to me according to your explanation does become an action,rather then the place????????????????????????????????????????????????????
What say ,you.