9:7 A clue why Masjidi Haram may be not a building
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peace be upon you,
sujood=submit, comply, hear and obey, I disagree with "ma" being "place"
The root word "sahara" means "to cast a spell" or "bewitch". When somebody is bewitched, the prefix "ma" is appended to the root which becomes the ground form of the verb "mashur". "Mashur" is not a physical building, but the state of being bewitched
in 1514-15 it says if The God were to open up a gate to the sky through which we could climb we would say our eyes had been bewitched
The root word "satara" means "to insribe" or "to write". When The God's book is prescribed with His permanent decrees a prefix of "ma" is appended to the root to become the ground form of "mastur". The book is not the "mastur" but what was prescribed or what was inspired is the "mastur"
522 says, "And a book inscribed." This means The God's commands are prescribed in the book.
The root word "shahid" means "to witness". When it is intended to show that the people are in a state of witnessing, a prefix of "ma" is appended to the root and it becomes the ground form of the verb "mashud". The place where the event took place is not the "mashud" but the state of witnessing is "mashud"
In 11103 it says "Indeed, these are the signs for those who fear the punishment in the ending. That will be the day when the people will be assembled and they will be "mashud"/witnessing."
The root word "sajana" means "to imprison". "Masjuni" signifies the serving of the term of imprisonment. "Masjuni" is not the prison.
The root word "sakana" means "to inhabit" or "to dwell". The act of dwelling is "maskun". The building where one dwells is called "buyut" or "house" and not "maskun".
"You commit not error if you enter the houses (buyutan) which are uninhabited (ghoiro maskun)." (2469)
Similarly, the word "sujud" in the reading (quran) means "submit". The word "masjid" found in 9107, 71, and 177 is simply a derative from the root. It does not represent a place where people go for prostrating. The plural of "masjid"-"masaajid"-simply means the people who are observing the submission/compliance/obediance.
These are only a few comparisons from a long list of examples in the reading (quran). The words "mashur", "mastur", "maskun", "masjid", "mashud", and "masjun" are verbs with the prefix of "ma" before their respective root words. They refer to the continuous state of being of the active particles or "doers of the act". An honest examination of the text of the reading can easily expose the mischevious distortion perpetruated by the Arabs to change the meaning of simple words.
Now that we have that out of the way I am prepared to debate and show you how that not only does "masjid" not fit into any of the signs (ayat) as being physical (regardless of the distortions in the words surrounding them to make it seem physical) but the reading also negates "masjid" being physical
peace
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peace be upon you,
now that I am off the subject of grammar at the moment I would like to discuss some logical points
S-J-D means show signs of submission (lower head, prostrate, etc..)
how are these signs of submission when anybody that can use their body in a functional manner can take part in these acts? even Hindus do these physical acts to their wooded gods, submission is obeying The God's laws and doing good deeds, not lowering your head down, even actors do this at the end of their plays
MASJID is the place where you show the signs of submission.
now that I got across what submission is, shouldn't we show submission to The God by obeying His laws wherever we go? does there need to be a designated area or building in which we do this? we can submit to The God without four walls, we don't need to have a building or designated place to feed the poor or help people
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Peace Idris,
I think you've delivered the knockout punch as far as grammatical plausibility goes. I think the nay-sayers will have to consider what you've stated carefully.
I'd suggested a long while ago that i believed s-j-d was 'acknowledging' (implying awareness as you pointed to above). There is obviouly the shades of humbleness, compliance and obedience and it's difficult to come up with an all encompassing word. The key element is that it is a state of mind and not a physical thing.
Now I'll leave with a quote that I think will prevail in this issue
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; and third, it is accepted as self-evident. --Arthur Schopenhauer
Peace.
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Salam all
The examples of Mashur and mastur are very good examples where MA does not necessarily mean a place. However they are different. In Mashur and Mastur, there is a U whereas in MASJID and MANZIL, there is an I. You will find that this example stands. The presesnce of Ma at the beginning and I or A in the second syllable usually indicate a place. The U in the second syllable, as you indicated reflect a state of a person. You cannot use the U rule to prove your point. Find me a word that sounds like MASJID that means different from place.
As for Sujood meaning submission
234
Wa-ith qulna lilmala-ikatiosjudoo li-adama fasajadoo illa ibleesa abawaistakbara wakana mina alkafireena
And behold, We said to the angels "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis he refused and was haughty He was of those who reject FaithDid the angels submit to Adam and how?
Salam
Hussein
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Salam again,
I am sorry that I missed some points that you guys have pointed
The root word "sakana" means "to inhabit" or "to dwell". The act of dwelling is "maskun". The building where one dwells is called "buyut" or "house" and not "maskun".
Actually, you can say MASKAN and it will mean house. Remember there is no U, as you pointed out.
The root word "shahid" means "to witness". When it is intended to show that the people are in a state of witnessing, a prefix of "ma" is appended to the root and it becomes the ground form of the verb "mashud". The place where the event took place is not the "mashud" but the state of witnessing is "mashud
"The place where the witnessing took place is called MASHAD as the city in IRAN.
An honest examination of the text of the reading can easily expose the mischevious distortion perpetruated by the Arabs to change the meaning of simple words.
I regret that you use this statement. It does not help your point and it does not weaken mine.
how are these signs of submission when anybody that can use their body in a functional manner can take part in these acts? even Hindus do these physical acts to their wooded gods, submission is obeying The God's laws and doing good deeds, not lowering your head down, even actors do this at the end of their plays
one can also say that they submit to GOD when they don't. Eventually, Only GOD knows who does what and who means it.
now that I got across what submission is, shouldn't we show submission to The God by obeying His laws wherever we go? does there need to be a designated area or building in which we do this? we can submit to The God without four walls, we don't need to have a building or designated place to feed the poor or help people
I have no problem with that. A masjid can be anywhere as well, it does not have to be a building. All earth can be a masjid.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; and third, it is accepted as self-evident. --Arthur Schopenhauer
I like it too. It applies to all of us and I hope that I did not ridicule anybody.
Salam
Hussein
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Salam all
The examples of Mashur and mastur are very good examples where MA does not necessarily mean a place. However they are different. In Mashur and Mastur, there is a U whereas in MASJID and MANZIL, there is an I. You will find that this example stands. The presesnce of Ma at the beginning and I or A in the second syllable usually indicate a place. The U in the second syllable, as you indicated reflect a state of a person. You cannot use the U rule to prove your point. Find me a word that sounds like MASJID that means different from place.
"mashad"/witnessing clearly proves you wrong on this, so does "maqam"/persistance, there are plenty but for the moment thats what came off the top of my head that don't apply to the "u rule" but still don't have anything to do with a place
As for Sujood meaning submission
234
Wa-ith qulna lilmala-ikatiosjudoo li-adama fasajadoo illa ibleesa abawaistakbara wakana mina alkafireena
And behold, We said to the angels "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis he refused and was haughty He was of those who reject FaithDid the angels submit to Adam and how?
Salam
Hussein
to respond to this I would have to address the concept of "malaika" and "sujood" all in one which is a big task to explain at the moment and will get in the way of the main topic at the moment which is the prefix "ma", so with this I respectfully ask for your patience until this discussion on "ma" is done and we can start a new thread on this, once we come to an agreement on "ma" then we can move on
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peace be upon you hlatif,
Actually, you can say MASKAN and it will mean house. Remember there is no U, as you pointed out.
provide with some examples in the reading where "maskan" can mean house, i havent seen any and "buyut" means house so at the moment I'm skeptical
The place where the witnessing took place is called MASHAD as the city in IRAN.
I don't care much for what any of the modern day arabs or even ancient arabs think of a word in the reading, it could be some help and a useful source to finding its meaning but ultimately the reading is the best testification to the correct meaning of a word and you didn't address it yet (different translation btw)
(11103) In this is a sign for he who fears the retribution of the ending. That is a Day to which all mankind will be gathered, and that is a Day which will "mashad"/witnessed.
I regret that you use this statement. It does not help your point and it does not weaken mine.
it wasn't supposed to help my point or weaken yours (The God's evidences did that D ) it was just a small summarization
one can also say that they submit to GOD when they don't. Eventually, Only GOD knows who does what and who means it.
the problem with this is that I mentioned nothing about people judging anybody's submission to The God, I contested the idea that mere bowing your head and prostrating on the ground is anything more then strange aerobics and signify submission to The God, anybody can do this, even actors at the end of a play bow, masjid is carrying out acts of submission to The God, not bowing and prostrating in a generic, "holy" excersise gym in which the "mosques" are nothing more then
peace
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Salam Idris,
provide with some examples in the reading where "maskan" can mean house, i havent seen any and "buyut" means house so at the moment I'm skeptical
Wakam ahlakna min qaryatin batiratmaAAeeshataha fatilka masakinuhum lam tuskan minbaAAdihim illa qaleelan wakunna nahnu alwaritheena
And how many populations We destroyed, which exulted in their life (of ease and plenty)! now those habitations of theirs, after them, are deserted,- All but a (miserable) few! and We are their heirs!MASAKIN is plural of MASKAN
(
11103) In this is a sign for he who fears the retribution of the ending. That is a Day to which all mankind will be gathered, and that is a Day which will "mashad"/witnessed.The word in 1103 is MASHUD/MASHOOD and not MAHAD as you stated.
11103 Inna fee thalika laayatanliman khafa AAathaba al-akhirati thalikayawmun majmooAAun lahu alnnasu wathalikayawmun mashhoodunIf you look at what I wrote you will find that I said most and not all. This is the rule of the language
put a MA before the first letter of the first letter of the root and A or I between the second and third letters of the root, then you will end up with place of occurrence of the verb of the root, tool related to the verb, something related to the verb but not the verb itself. depending on what the root means.
Put MA at the beginning and U between the second and the third letter of the root, and it will mean that the verb has occurred on the person or the thing that was mentioned. MASTUR someone who was hidden and etc.
Those rules definitely apply to the word MASJID. You can change it, but that is not what it meant at the time the Qur'an was revealed. MAJID can never mean submissions according to this rule.
the problem with this is that I mentioned nothing about people judging anybody's submission to The God, I contested the idea that mere bowing your head and prostrating on the ground is anything more then strange aerobics and signify submission to The God, anybody can do this, even actors at the end of a play bow, masjid is carrying out acts of submission to The God, not bowing and prostrating in a generic, "holy" excersise gym in which the "mosques" are nothing more then
If someone bows to GOD and means it, what is wrong with that? Aren't you being judgemental here?
I don't care much for what any of the modern day arabs or even ancient arabs think of a word in the reading, it could be some help and a useful source to finding its meaning but ultimately the reading is the best testification to the correct meaning of a word and you didn't address it yet (different translation btw)
I need you to elaborate here. Are you saying that you will make a new meaning to the word, regardless of what the word meant to the ancient arabs? I may have misunderstood you though.
Salam
Hussein
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Salaams latif,
just for info
the word is Masjidun see page 248 of QD.
And you said
Put MA at the beginning and U between the second and the third letter of the root, and it will mean that the verb has occurred on the person or the thing that was mentioned. MASTUR someone who was hidden and etc.
So it to me according to your explanation does become an action,rather then the place????????????????????????????????????????????????????
What say ,you.
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Salam mz357,
the word is Masjidun see page 248 of QD.
And you said
Put MA at the beginning and U between the second and the third letter of the root, and it will mean that the verb has occurred on the person or the thing that was mentioned. MASTUR someone who was hidden and etc.
The root is S-J-D, there is a MA at the beginning and an I between the second and the third letters. I will demonstrate by keeping the root letters capitalised. maSJiD. The un at the end of masjidun are not part of the word. They are what is called HARAKA that changes according to the position of masjid in the sentence. ie, depending on where you are in the sentence, the word will sound like this
masjidun
masjidan
masjidin
masjida
masjidu
masjidi
those letters after the D are after the THIRD letter of the root and they do not interefere with the meaning.Thanks for the question and have a good day
Hussein
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Peace brother Hussein, all,
The word in 1103 is MASHUD/MASHOOD and not MAHAD as you stated.
11103 Inna fee thalika laayatanliman khafa AAathaba al-akhirati thalikayawmun majmooAAun lahu alnnasu wathalikayawmun mashhoodunI agree that MShHUD in 11103 is not a good example because of the extra U. On the other hand, a good example of what brother Idris is trying to convey, that an M before the words of weight MF3L, doesn't always denote a place is the word MShHD in 1937
- But parties from among them disagreed with each other, so woe to those who rejected from the sight/witnessing/MShHD/ of a great day/time.
Here we see the term MShHD, which has the exact same form as MSKN, used to mean something other than a place but a sight/the action of witnessing.
Another example is the word MNAM/sleep in 37102, 3942, etc. The word has the same weight as MSKN but because of the Waw in the middle it is transformed to an Alif. Surely, in those instances the word MNAM is not talking about a place of sleeping but is talking about the action of sleeping.
Those are just two quick examples and I am sure that others can find more. I think brother Idris already mentioned the word MQAM as another example, which hasn't been addressed by you.
put a MA before the first letter of the first letter of the root and A or I between the second and third letters of the root, then you will end up with place of occurrence of the verb of the root, tool related to the verb, something related to the verb but not the verb itself. depending on what the root means.
Put MA at the beginning and U between the second and the third letter of the root, and it will mean that the verb has occurred on the person or the thing that was mentioned. MASTUR someone who was hidden and etc.
There is no A or I. Those are vocalization marks and not letters. The Arabic word simply has four letters MSJD/ .
Those rules definitely apply to the word MASJID. You can change it, but that is not what it meant at the time the Qur'an was revealed. MAJID can never mean submissions according to this rule.
Mosque is definitely not what was meant at the time the great reading was revealed. Mosque is the name given to "post-quranic" buildings. If you want to talk about religious buildings prior to the great reading then you can talk of churches, pagan Temples, or Synagogues. There was no such a thing as a mosque back then.
The root is S-J-D, there is a MA at the beginning and an I between the second and the third letters. I will demonstrate by keeping the root letters capitalised. maSJiD. The un at the end of masjidun are not part of the word. They are what is called HARAKA that changes according to the position of masjid in the sentence.
There is no "I". The "I" is a vocalization mark just like the "un" and as you correctly said, BOTH are not part of the word.
I hope this clarified the issues.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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peace be upon you hlatif,
The word in 1103 is MASHUD/MASHOOD and not MAHAD as you stated.
11103 Inna fee thalika laayatanliman khafa AAathaba al-akhirati thalikayawmun majmooAAun lahu alnnasu wathalikayawmun mashhoodunIf you look at what I wrote you will find that I said most and not all. This is the rule of the language
put a MA before the first letter of the first letter of the root and A or I between the second and third letters of the root, then you will end up with place of occurrence of the verb of the root, tool related to the verb, something related to the verb but not the verb itself. depending on what the root means.
Put MA at the beginning and U between the second and the third letter of the root, and it will mean that the verb has occurred on the person or the thing that was mentioned. MASTUR someone who was hidden and etc.
Those rules definitely apply to the word MASJID. You can change it, but that is not what it meant at the time the Qur'an was revealed. MAJID can never mean submissions according to this rule.
brother ayman just gave a few good examples and this is only ONE ROOT, there are many more examples throughout the reading that prove that this "grammar rule" is inadequate when interpreting the reading
If someone bows to GOD and means it, what is wrong with that? Aren't you being judgemental here?
first off, explain to me how somebody can physically bow to The God as if He is a seperate being? The God is not some object far away from us, He is not the rock cube in mecca nor is He in the sky, He encompasses all and is closer to us then our jugular vein, we bow down to The God by following His commands and humbling ourselves, sorry for making the jokes but i sometimes I just try to be funny, but i'm not being judgemental of those who choose to physically bow or prostrate, i am just saying that it is not a sign of submission to The God to do either
I need you to elaborate here. Are you saying that you will make a new meaning to the word, regardless of what the word meant to the ancient arabs? I may have misunderstood you though.
no, i meant that I will look at a classical/modern arabic dictionary understanding of a word and translate it based on their understanding in the reading as long as it fits into the context, makes sense, and doesn't contradict anything, but if their understanding/interpretation of the word doesn't fit into the context, make sense, and contradicts some things then I will interpret the word based on the best meaning that fits into the context and is close as possible to the dictionary understanding, none of these dictionaries are perfect, we shouldn't just blindly translate like robots putting whatever word in that the dictionaries say, we must use reason, this "U rule" is a classic example
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Salaam All,
I checked the use of MANZIL as our brother suggested. Unless we see the position of the moon being physical, other than referring to its position, then I understand this does not need to be physical as in MASAKIN.
105 Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsa diyaan waalqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazila litaAAlamoo AAadada alssineena waalhisaba ma khalaqa Allahu thalika illa bialhaqqi yufassilu alayati liqawmin yaAAlamoona
105 It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.
Wasalaam
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Salam brothers,
I am going to address your points. One reminder is the fact that I said that the MAFL is much of the times a place. I agree that it is not always
1- just because you can show examples that this form is not a place, does not make MASJID not a place. I also remind you that a MASJID does not have to be a building.
2- MAQAM means a place where you stand.
3-
1937. But parties from among them disagreed with each other, so woe to those who rejected from the sight/witnessing/MShHD/ of a great day/time.Here we see the term MShHD, which has the exact same form as MSKN, used to mean something other than a place but a sight/the action of witnessing.
MASHAD here means what is witnessed, or a place of witnessing. Both meanings work for the AYAH. It does not mean witnessing. Witnessing means that they will say I SAW THIS. That is not what the AYAH says
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Another example is the word MNAM/sleep in 37102, 3942, etc. The word has the same weight as MSKN but because of the Waw in the middle it is transformed to an Alif. Surely, in those instances the word MNAM is not talking about a place of sleeping but is talking about the action of sleeping.MNAM does not mean sleep it means What is in the sleep or place of sleep. in 37102 it is the DREAM which is in the sleep and not sleep itself, it can also mean bed,as in I saw in bed. In 3942 MANAM can mean the bed easily and will be consistent with the word and with the AYAH.
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first off, explain to me how somebody can physically bow to The God as if He is a seperate being? The God is not some object far away from us, He is not the rock cube in mecca nor is He in the sky, He encompasses all and is closer to us then our jugular vein, we bow down to The God by following His commands and humbling ourselves, sorry for making the jokes but i sometimes I just try to be funny, but i'm not being judgemental of those who choose to physically bow or prostrate, i am just saying that it is not a sign of submission to The God to do eitherExactly as you said. GOD is nearer to you and me than we think. If I bow to GOD and I mean it with my actions, and with my feelings, then He will see it.
I think that this discussion may Go back and forth in a never ending manner. Therefore this will be my last post. May GOD's peace be with all of us and may he show us his straightened path.
Salam brothers
Hussein
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Salaams Br.latif,
If you don't mind,answer this before you retire.
Ayman mentioned "Another example is the word MNAM/sleep in 37102, 3942"
And you said"MNAM does not mean sleep it means What is in the sleep or place of sleep. in 37102 it is the DREAM which is in the sleep and not sleep itself, it can also mean bed,as in I saw in bed. In 3942 MANAM can mean the bed easily and will be consistent with the word and with the AYAH. "
I can't see how the place thingy will make sense.
Could you please give us the translations of these two ayat's from your chosen quran translations , as i can't find one according to your definitions.Much obliged , Thanks.
Or if there arn't any - you may try doing it yourself -i do not mind that either,then i could see the visualisation of that.
Salaams to you.
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Peace,
I think the study of the forms has been a very informative one and has given me something to think upon.
Brother Hussein has given a reasonable explanation of why he believes the MA'FIL, MA'FAL constructs mean place and that the 'U' indicates a state of mind MA'FUL.
Examples of the 'A' meaning mental state can be offered but there does not seem to be any 'I' examples that unambiguously refer to the state of mind.
The only way I see to explain this is that the diacritical marks on MASJID were later alterations - as the early manuscripts do not have the diacritical marks and all of these are later additions to reflect the reading at the time of addition.
Now it is not inconceivable that the word which might have been MASJUD was in the interests of corrupting the deen made into MASJID - it may even have been benign as in a dialectal difference. Also there may have been both MASJID and MASJUD - but one was converted to the other by mistaken exegesis and thus diacritical marking.
I realise that for a long 'U' a waw is required - but I have no knowledge whether the U is present as a long vowel in the text or was a part of the diacritical marking system. In the case that the long U was a part of the early non-marked text then this theory is not true.
So AL-MASJID-AL-HARAM may be AL-MASJUD-AL-HARAM.
Any comments?
Peace.
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Salaams truth,
of course Br. latif wouldn't except this, but i for one totally tally this -and is making sense as the diacritical marking where input long time after according to history.Salaams.
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Peace Oben,
in this case unfortunately the U is spelled out in the arabic, for example in MASKUN, MASH-HUD, etc. the word consists of 5 letters, the WAW is the 4th letter in this case.
In case of MASKAN, MASH-HAD, the word is consisting of 4 letters, so you are suggesting that arabs took a letter waaw from all occurances of the word MSJD which means you are also suggesting that the Quran was corrupted.
Best regards,
sabo -
Peace sabo,
Yes the waw for long U is an issue as I mentioned.
If what I have written can be true then I think that only the specific AL-MASJID-AL-HARAM and -AL-AQSA refernces are probably corrupted.
I think in some cases the word MASJID as in place fits much easier.
So no, I don't think all of the instances were changed, but it may be that in the limited number of cases where it is modified by al-haram and one occasion of al-aqsa may be.
Regards.
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Peace Oben,
I don't believe any letters were taken out, so in case of al-haram I still believe it is Masjid....To be originally masjud, then someone had to take a waaw out of the word ....
So not everything you doubt its meaning or you don't understand it then you take it out or add a waw etc...after few months we'd be having a different quran
Best regards,
sabo