9:7 A clue why Masjidi Haram may be not a building
-
Peace Kyle,
I think your explanation is rational. However, I am examining whether we have sufficient grounds to reject the other view. I'll need to think a little more on this.
Like I said, I am using a process of elimination.
Let me answer your questions
Does the Saudi Officials have some speacial "Believer" machine? Do you think terorists have trouble getting into that place?
In a manner of speaking, at least consistent with their own values. As long as they don't contradict themselves in their own terms we can't discount it. Alternatively, we would have to debate and discount the greater premise of their false interpretations.
Hence, in their own terms they can get someone to testify as they wish, they would make them follow their corrupt ways and rituals. Hence, they seem to be able to fit people in to their mould of believer. Terrorists are no terrorists by them since I am sure they'll find a hadith that will support their view.
I am looking forward to how you evaluate this... wink
Peace
-
Peace be upon you Ash Shura,
I lets take this from the top, The God says that the rejectors cannot have access to the "restricted masjid". My position is that the "place of hearing and obeying the restrictions" is a MENTAL place, a LEVEL(maqam) that ones true self reaches where they remain focused on that direction(QIBLA).
The other thought is that the "restricted masjid" is a physical place onthis physical earth. My question is, do you think that I could not take a casucasion priest, teach him a few terms "assalamalakum ackee" and all of that, teach him a few essentials, and he could not get into that physical place? Even though he really rejects the message?
IF you don't think that is possible, tell me how its not possible.
The only way that this instruction can be fulfilled is if there is a SOLID LAW that prevents this, that would be the God's law. And since man can go anywehre in this physical world, this LAW must be mental.
WHat are your views on this?
-
Peace be upon you Kyle,
WHat are your views on this?
9107-111 never made sense to me when I thought it as a physical masjid. I questioned the significance, since it belonged to many moons ago and it had no practical purpose. I mean for a person living in Japan for example what is the significance? Do we have to worry about this one particular in the heart of arabia wherever this mosque suppose to be? I suppose the Japanese believer is out of danger since he will never come into contact with this building and the people in there must have been long gone wink
No, for me the meaning works when it talks about submission based on the restrictions of the system. These verses now make a lot of sense to me.
Lets face it how would you divide the believers GOD forbid!? Would you build a new mosque or set them each of their own restrictions....? ala Shia and Sunni contradictions.
When you have people base their understanding on fantastic stories such as someone made up their own Quran and declared war on the messenger and fleshes out detail, then their understanding becomes hostage to these stories.
Hence, I am not bemused when I see sunni scholars declaring the reading to be non sensical without the man made narrations whilst being flabbergasted at the incredible hypocrisy.
regards
-
Peace be upon you Ash Shura,
So you agree that "masjid" is not a physical place, correct?
-
So you agree that "masjid" is not a physical place, correct?
Peace Kyle,
This is my current understanding yes. If you go back to the begining of the thread you will see what I said.
However, I am GOD willing open to contrary evidence and prepared to examine within reason.
regards
-
Peace be upon you Ash Shura,
My apologies for the misunderstanding, I am glad we agree.
-
Peace Kyle,
No need to apologise, probably its me and my examining all possibilities.
-
according to the grammar books masjid is among the nouns of time and place(makan wa zaman),
another related word that is among the nouns of time and place is musallan
it is mentioned, i think, only in 2125
wa ttakhidhu(or wattakhadhu) min maqami ibraheema musallaa
...and take(or they took) from/of the place/position of Abraham place(or position? e.i. methaphorical meaning) of adherence/following...
best wishes, Zlatan
-
Salam All,
I do apologise for returning to the forum here. However, Brother Zlatan posted some interesting comments that I felt a need to address. Also, I need to answer the issue of MANAZIL and the issue of MANAM
1- brother Zlatan. Regarding the Time and Place. You wrote it yourself it Time AND Place and not Time Or place, as you suggested for your interpretation of Masjid. In my reading of the meaning of the word (masjid) in QAMOOS MUHEET, it is only mentioned as a place.This (Time and Place)is only true when the verb has a time component in it, and then the form of the word that sounds like MASJID will mean Time AND Place and not one or the other. Example the word MAWAAiD which means Date (of meeting or something) and it denotes time and place of the meeting.
MashriQ and Maghrib were only mentioned as PLACES and not as times in the Qur'an. When time was mentioned the word SHUROOQ and GHUROOB were used.
Musalla as you mentioned sounds more like place to me and not time.2- MANAZIL as brother Ashura had written.
Root N-Z-L and it means to arrive (according to my reading of QAMOOS MUHEET.
MANZIL place of arrival. That is why it can mean a house because that it a place you arrive to. MANZIL of the moon is the place that the moon arrives to at each stage of it movement, and therefore you have MANAZIL, one MANZIL (place of arrival) for each stage of movement.3- MANAM is the place where you sleep, also according to QAMOOS MUHEET. The two AYAT are like this
37102 the story of Abraham and what he saw in the MANAM. The way I understand it is the ABRAHAM said
O my son I see in the "place of my sleep". Abraham is saying the While I was in the place of my sleep, I saw...
Abraham could have been sleeping in his bed and therefore saw in the dream, or he could have been awake and saw the message while awake.
3942 Talks about taking the selves in MANAM. Here it is talking about the taking the selves in "their place of sleep". Most people die in the place of their sleep.4-We all have biases and prejudices. Mine is that I feel that there is no problem with the word Masjid being a place. I am open to your proofs though, and I admire brother As Shura for declaring his bias. I detect that you have biases as well, but I will leave it to you to declare them.
The most important thing is this Do we read the Qur'an to prove that our biases are correct? or do we read the Qur'an in order for the Qur'an to teach us what is right or wrong?
The question is posed to me and to you. May GOD relieve us all of the biases that we hold
hussein
-
Peace
1- brother Zlatan. Regarding the Time and Place. You wrote it yourself it Time AND Place and not Time Or place, as you suggested for your interpretation of Masjid. In my reading of the meaning of the word (masjid) in QAMOOS MUHEET, it is only mentioned as a place.This (Time and Place)is only true when the verb has a time component in it, and then the form of the word that sounds like MASJID will mean Time AND Place and not one or the other.
From my study of numerous grammar books I am almost sure the most learned grammarians wouldnt agree with you.. but thanks for the reminder ill check it more....
best wishes
-
Salaamun Hussein,
2- MANAZIL as brother Ashura had written.
Root N-Z-L and it means to arrive (according to my reading of QAMOOS MUHEET.
MANZIL place of arrival. That is why it can mean a house because that it a place you arrive to. MANZIL of the moon is the place that the moon arrives to at each stage of it movement, and therefore you have MANAZIL, one MANZIL (place of arrival) for each stage of movement.I think you provided a good explanation and last time before you walked off which suprised me I felt you had valued input. I have not rejected your input outright, I considered it, learnt, but I arrived at different conclusions.
I'll briefly explain my logic and leave it at that
You advocated manzil can be a physical place, I agree.
Hence, you did not preclude the fact it can also be non physical.
Therefore, the meaning must be established within its usage in the reading. For example the stages of the moon.
4-We all have biases and prejudices. Mine is that I feel that there is no problem with the word Masjid being a place. I am open to your proofs though, and I admire brother As Shura for declaring his bias. I detect that you have biases as well, but I will leave it to you to declare them.
First of all, was your impression that I denied the possibility that a masjid could be a physical place? No. However, I explained my present understanding and if you notice I am prepared to consider evidence. I have no fixed views, I have changed my understanding many a time and if you are a catalyst this time round, its fine by me.
Unfortunately, this was not possible since you decided to quit the discussion. For now I don't see any clues referring to a particular instance that we can prove masjid is a physical place. However, when we read verse such as 9107-111 a physical masjid does not make sense.
But I am kind of offended with this bias business, I find it presumptous, it could have been left with focus on behaviour and not persons. Like you I am prepared to examine, so what is the problem? I am happy to let you win the argument here so I don't think this is the issue, what is important for me is to gain the correct understanding. Hence, the intense questioning assumptions from my part is a way to examine.
The most important thing is this Do we read the Qur'an to prove that our biases are correct? or do we read the Qur'an in order for the Qur'an to teach us what is right or wrong?
Only GOD can judge that, we can make mistakes but I don't think we should base our behaviour on suspicion or conjecture on what others motives are. Hence, we should concentrate on the issues and not the persons.
Anyway, from my part your input is greatly appreciated and it has contributed to my understanding. You may not see it that way, and it was unfortunate that you walked away. Maybe you were busy....
regards
-
Salam brother As-Shura,
I am so sorry. I really meant to say something positive when I mentioned your name. I apologise profusely that I misspoke. What I was trying to say was that I really appreciated the fact that you talked about where you come from. That was all.
I am very sorry, and please accept my apologies.
Hussein
-
Peace Ashura
Salaam Anwar,
This assumes humans perceive correctly, are not influenced by their peers or have always honourable intentions.
I for one must question every notion that comes forth in the light of the reading. Hence, any corrupt use of a word, context due to the above factors will be exposed. Otherwise, there are many ways to corrupt the message We are wiser to extra quranic teachings, but also we must include the possibility the use of words are corrupted. This should be self evident since we have so many invented terms in islamic literature that is not in the reading e.g. Baytullah etc...
regards,I understand what you are saying. But Muhammad, a human, copied the Koran. Other humans memorized the Koran and handed it down. You are assuming that they are perfect in their perception and intentions also as you trust the Koran that they have handed down to you. You are assuming that the scribes were not tempted to corrupt the message because of their own human reasons. You are assuming that they did not fall pray to the temptations that would lead them to do that when you accept that the Koran that you read is the same Koran that Gabriel (God bless him) recited.
You have to understand that if what you are saying is true we cannot trust that we have the true Koran or even attempt to understand it because our faulty human perception, the fact that we are subject to influence from our peers and because we do not always have the most honorable of intentions when we try to understand the Koran.
You are saying that all dictionaries and grammar books are wrong about the corresponding languages that they clarify because of the faults of those that have done the research for them and have recorded them and given them to us.
If we were talking about the Bible and the English language this wouldn't have even been a debate. Because we all understand that understanding the language precedes understanding any book in that language.
We understand the language through the dictionaries and grammar books. Then, once we understand the language then and only then can we understand the book.
Not even a Christian would dare to say that he did not need to read and understand the dictionaries and grammar books of greek to fully understand his greek bible. Common sense dictates that he relies on these books from which he gets the proper grammar and definitions of greek before he can rely on his understanding of the book.
Yes, we must trust those mere human beings to understand the language that the Arabs of Muhammad's day spoke. Yes. Just like we must trust those mere human beings that recorded and memorized the Koran for us to be able to read it today. Whose to say they didn't make mistakes? It can actually be proven that they did make mistakes. But that is the glory of God. He makes the mistakes of mankind stick out through contradiction.
When wants something done he says 'be' and so, it is.Therefore if the grammarians made mistakes it can be seen in their own contradictions. God would not give us a book in a foreign language and not allow the rules and definitions of that foreign language to be preserved for us to learn. Only when we have seen the contradictions of the grammarians do we have the right to say 'they were wrong' and only then can we begin to propose a more correct solution to the problem.
Baytullaah is in the Koran. And the Islamic scholars of the years after Muhammad's time have been right and wrong.
The true test to be able to tell if the meaning of a word does not belong in the Koran is to date the invention of the meaning to a post-koranic time.
The meaning of Islam as 'submission to God' can be dated to a post-koranic time in that Shafi'i alone said that 'Muslims call themselves that because they are submissive to God.' This was his interpretation, and was invented when he said it. Gratefully we know that he lived a good deal after Muhammad's time. Even more gratefully we know from how he said this that he invented this interpretation. So we know that this meaning cannot be put into the Koran, or the hadeeth for that matter, when we see the word Islam. We can do that with all of the other meanings that we have doubt about through research. Zakat in its use as 'Poor-rate' or 'poor-tax' can be dated to a time after Muhammad and his people's time also.You see, that is all that is needed to verify how a word was used by the Arabs of Muhammad's day. All you have to look for is if that meaning is time-bound, by a person or a particular group. Muhammad's people would have used the word intifaadah but not as it refers to the Palestinian people, because that meaning is time-bound (or was coined) by the Palestinian people in their struggles in the recent years.
Hajj in it's meaning as 'Pilgrimage to Medina & Mecca' is time-bound. That became it's meaning after Muslims established this pilgrimage as a specific rite of their religion. So when the Koran uses Hajj we should know that the Arabs of Muhammad's day would have used hajj with any pilgrimage, as only making pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina was not a specific rite of their religion.
If we cannot show that the meaning is time-bound, or that it was coined (not just used) during a time after the advent of the Koran then the word can validly be understood in the Koran. There is not need for inventing meanings.
As far as 'ma' is concerned. We have to take into account the literal and methaphorical aspects of it. Whenver we can use 'at' we have to understand that 'ma' can be used. When used in the sense of time it is pinpointing a particular 'place' in time. maghrib and ghuroob can be used as 'sundown' because sundown is a happening (ghuroob) as well as a particular place in time 'maghrib.'
So think 'ma' when it comes to time if you can say that the root (in this case sundown gharaba) happens at a particular place in time.
Masjid can refer to a mental state, in a metaphorical sense, because mental states are also metaphorical 'places.' If, in your mind you are always worshiping, then yes, your mind can be a masjid. Just as I can say, 'My mind is a church' or 'My mind is a place of worship'.
But masjid on its own cannot refer to a mental state. It can only refer to a 'place of worhip.'
A place of worship is any place where worshipping is going on, or any place designated for worship. That is also the meaning of 'masjid.'
A church is a masjid, a memorial hall is a masjid, a synogogue is a masjid, a temple is a masjid, etc., etc.Godbless,
AnwarI pray to God I have been of some help in this debate. A debate in which I hope a common solution will be reached.
-
Salam brother As-Shura,
I did want to leave the discussion because I am a very busy person. Also, because I fear that my liking for debate may interfere with my wanting to learn the Qur'an. I do want to thank you for referring me to the 9107-111 AYAT. I probably need to hear from you what you consider as problematic in it. I will try to address my understanding of it
107 talks about MASJID Dirar sounds ok to me
108 talks about that a MASJID that is founded on TAQWA (Which I will translate as GOD consciousness) is better.
109 Talks about people found their BUNYAN on TAQWA vs those that found their BUNYAN on a cliff that will fall to hell.
Here I have to address the word BUNYAN. It comes from the root B-N-W and it means to build. A BUNYAN is what a person builds or built. So a MASJID is a BUNYAN, and so are other things, including the building of the self. The AYAH 109- to me- expands the principle of the AYAT 107 and 108. We start with MASJID, and in 109 we expand to BUNYAN which is everything that a peson builds including MASJID as well as THEIR own beings.Basically the AYAH says everything you build, including your own self as well as your MASJID, should be built on a foundation of TAQWA.
110 talks about the BUNYAN of those people and it probably addresses all aspects of their BUNYAN (Their own self as well as their MASJID)This is my understanding of the AYAT. I would love to hear your opinion.
SALAM
Hussein
-
I did want to leave the discussion because I am a very busy person. Also, because I fear that my liking for debate may interfere with my wanting to learn the Qur'an.
Salaam brother Hussein,
Likewise. Nonetheless I have benefited greatly from interactions with fellow believers. I also feel its essential we learn how to debate in the ways that are best. I believe this ofrum helps in that matter. In Sha Allah then we can fulfil our duty in conveying the message. Meanwhile, I appreciate the fact you took time out and hope I can convey what I understand from these verses.
107 talks about MASJID Dirar sounds ok to me
In the context of the quran one may understand a physical masjid interpretation that building another mosque would be a way to divide the believers. You could but you would need more. You would need to teach a different message. However, as I see this refers to a system of sanctions. We have "schools of thought" that differ as in shia and sunni which has been an effective way of dividing the believers. The former is plausible the latter more rational and answers the question the former did not. A question to ask is why has the latter been underplayed against the possible former? Hence, this verse for now teaches me the message that only GODs system is the answer to prevent divisions and set a foundation of a life system.
108 talks about that a MASJID that is founded on TAQWA (Which I will translate as GOD consciousness) is better.
The problem I see here is that the physical masjid leaves the message somewhat incomplete. In what way do you build in righteousness? You have to make self explanations. To me however, in the non physical sense it makes it very clear, that a system of restrictions based on GOD concsiousness is better.
9108 Do not uphold in it ever. A Temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you uphold in it
The system you adopt is more worthy than what you continue to do. I fail to see the logical relationship and it significance between building, founding vs the upholding i.e practice. Why is building a masjid is more important than what you do? I would contend if I can feed people in that masjid for a long time probably one will do more rightousness. My understanding however highlights the importance of the basis of our life system. Because a corrupt basis can lead to corrupt actions. But a corrupt building can be used for doing good.
109 Talks about people found their BUNYAN on TAQWA vs those that found their BUNYAN on a cliff that will fall to hell.
Here I have to address the word BUNYAN. It comes from the root B-N-W and it means to build. A BUNYAN is what a person builds or built. So a MASJID is a BUNYAN, and so are other things, including the building of the self. The AYAH 109- to me- expands the principle of the AYAT 107 and 108. We start with MASJID, and in 109 we expand to BUNYAN which is everything that a peson builds including MASJID as well as THEIR own beings.Here if there is an allegory of a physical building built on righteousness falling down a metaphorical cliff the lesson is a little vague for me. The meaning that makes sense to me is that this is allegorical from start to finish. If we base our life system on GODs system its foundation is sound, otherwise we are building it at the edge of a cliff. A physical reference to a physical allegory seems to be the problem in the former physical interpretation. A concept referring to a physical allegory in the latter seemed more meaningful to me.
Basically the AYAH says everything you build, including your own self as well as your MASJID, should be built on a foundation of TAQWA.
110 talks about the BUNYAN of those people and it probably addresses all aspects of their BUNYAN (Their own self as well as their MASJID)What would put doubt in my heart is lesser is a physical building, but more my restrictions on my behaviour. For example, if I allowed myself a system of "look after number one", this no doubt will give doubt to my belief. My life experience can attest and that there are more profound lessons than building a physical building in these verses.
Finally, let me inform you I can not guarantee the correctness as this is mostly what I understand when I read these verses, this makes the lessons very clear in my mind. However, there is a lot more that my eyes/mind does not see. I am happy to clarify, explain or listen to your view.
Peace
-
Peace brother Hussein, all,
There are just too many examples of forms similar to MSJD that mean things other than a physical place. There are also many examples where the word MSJD itself cannot be understood as a physical building. Hence, I don't see how you can still be disputing this.
3- MANAM is the place where you sleep, also according to QAMOOS MUHEET. The two AYAT are like this
37102 the story of Abraham and what he saw in the MANAM. The way I understand it is the ABRAHAM said
O my son I see in the "place of my sleep". Abraham is saying the While I was in the place of my sleep, I saw...
Abraham could have been sleeping in his bed and therefore saw in the dream, or he could have been awake and saw the message while awake.
3942 Talks about taking the selves in MANAM. Here it is talking about the taking the selves in "their place of sleep". Most people die in the place of their sleep.I am afraid that you didn't properly address the word "MNAM"/sleep. If you read 3942 carefully, you will see that The God says
"... and that which did NOT die in its sleep/"MNAMHA"".
This is the exact opposite of what you are saying.
So what the verse is saying is that The God takes the selves that DID NOT DIE IN SLEEP. On the other hand, according to you, the verse is saying is that The God takes the selves that did not die in THE PLACE OF THEIR SLEEP. So, according to you, if I am awake just sitting and reading in bed (the place where I sleep), The God takes my self. That interpretation defies common sense.
As I said, there is no shortage of examples of words similar to MSJD that do not denote a physical place.
For example, see MNAS in 383 where it means "escape". If one reads the whole sentence in 383, no matter how biased one is, one cannot force the meaning of "place of escape" on the word.
"7in" means "at the time of" and "7in MNAS" means "at the time of escape". Trying to make it into a physical place results in the illogical "at the time of the place of escape", so brother, please save your effort and don't even try.
The same thing can be said about other words. Such as MSGhB(t) in 9014, which has the same exact structure as MSJD except in the feminine. However, gender has no impact on the meaning. I hope that you will not claim that "a day/time of hunger" really means "a day/time of a place of hunger". The presence of the word YWM/day/time renders such interpretation impossible. You can see more examples of similar words that do not denote a physical place in 9015-19.
Brother Ash Shuura already gave you the example of 9108 where MSJD cannot mean a physical building. Here is how you responded
108 talks about that a MASJID that is founded on TAQWA (Which I will translate as GOD consciousness) is better.
Please explain to us how a physical building can be founded on "consciousness". I always thought that physical buildings are founded on walls, concrete, and other physical materials. The fact is that in reality a non-physical foundation can only be the foundation of a non-physical concept.
MAQAM means a place where you stand.
MQAM cannot mean a physical place where one stands in verses such as 1973, 1779, etc. If you disagree then please provide a logical translation of those verses substituting "a physical place where you stand" instead of "MQAM".
4-We all have biases and prejudices. Mine is that I feel that there is no problem with the word Masjid being a place. I am open to your proofs though, and I admire brother As Shura for declaring his bias. I detect that you have biases as well, but I will leave it to you to declare them.
The most important thing is this Do we read the Qur'an to prove that our biases are correct? or do we read the Qur'an in order for the Qur'an to teach us what is right or wrong?
You are right brother. When one has a predisposed bias, one doesn't read what is actually written and instead reads what he preconceives is written. Therefore, you need to take your misreading of 3942 as evidence of bias and turn it into a positive opportunity for self-improvement.
You can start improving your understanding by sharing what you think MSJD means. Here is what you said earlier
I also remind you that a MASJID does not have to be a building.
If you don't think that it is the building of a church, synagogue, or a pagan temple (the only types of religious buildings present at the time of the revelation of the great reading), what is it then? Is it any place where someone decided to place their forehead on the floor? How would we do the impossible and stop at EVERY such place to take beautiful things according to 731? How would we do the impossible and face a certain physical building WHEREVER we are according to your understanding of 2144? Would The God CONSISTENTLY ask us to do such physical impossibilities or is it your understanding that is still biased based on what you were taught by sectarians?
The question is posed to me and to you. May GOD relieve us all of the biases that we hold
I join you in that prayer.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
-
Peace be upon you all,
I join the "prayer" that we all can come to a common solution.
Can someone shoe me an example where "masjid" is physical? I have yet to see how the rejectors can be kept out unless it is "mental/spiritual" place.
To me it is like abstract thinking, which many seem to be unable to do, which is the basis for seperations/divisions.
-
Salam Brother Ash-Shura, All,
Thank you for your polite note and areas of dicussion. I plan to address your points in this post, as well as brother Idolfree. I will respond to brother Ayman in a later post.
My vision of Masjid is this
1-Any place where people perform Sujood. This can be your prayer rug, a piece of land and a mosque.
2-When people perform Sujood in groups, then it becomes not only a place of Sujood, but also a place of learning, discussion and policy. The division of Shia and Sunnis started in the Masajid. Churches are a good example too. People pray in the church, yet each church adopts it's own policy and outlook on things. This is in agreement with what your view is (I think). The difference is that I believe that a Masjid as a system and a Masjid as a place of Sujood are not mutually exclusive.
3- Fiundation of the Masjid is the person or the group of people that decide to build it, with their own thinking, intentions and studies. Stones, bricks, wood, don't build masjids. People do, and the foundation is in the people and their ideas.Now to your points.
A question to ask is why has the latter been underplayed against the possible former? Hence, this verse for now teaches me the message that only GODs system is the answer to prevent divisions and set a foundation of a life system.
I do not disagree with you here. The AYAH 107 talks about people who were scheming against the Mumins. They had to meet somewhere. Where did those people meet to scheme? The place they met in was called a MASJID.
The problem I see here is that the physical masjid leaves the message somewhat incomplete. In what way do you build in righteousness? You have to make self explanations. To me however, in the non physical sense it makes it very clear, that a system of restrictions based on GOD concsiousness is better
The foundation of a Masjid is in the people and their ideas before the stones.
Quote
9108 Do not uphold in it ever. A Temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you uphold in itThe system you adopt is more worthy than what you continue to do. I fail to see the logical relationship and it significance between building, founding vs the upholding i.e practice.
I am afraid that I disagree with the translation that you cited. The word Uphold that is mentioned twice here is wrong, in my understanding, and others.
Here is why. The two words are taqum in the first instance and taqooma the first is an order that says Do not Stand addressing a singular first person, the second is present tense singular for you stand. They both come from the Verb QAM
To mean uphold the first word should tuqem and the second tuqeemYou and I agree that 109 and 110 are somehwat Allegorical. However, I do not see that there should be a problem in starting with Concrete and ending in abstract. Here is an example
4912 O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible) for suspicion in some cases is a sin And spy not on each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah For Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
here it starts with a clear concrete order and ended in a parable.
Brother Idolfree,
Can someone shoe me an example where "masjid" is physical?
4102
Wa-itha kunta feehim faaqamta lahumualssalata faltaqum ta-ifatun minhummaAAaka walya/khuthoo aslihatahum fa-ithasajadoo falyakoonoo min wara-ikum walta/ti ta-ifatunokhra lam yusalloo falyusalloo maAAakawalya/khuthoo hithrahum waaslihatahumwadda allatheena kafaroo law taghfuloona AAan aslihatikumwaamtiAAatikum fayameeloona AAalaykum maylatan wahidatanwala junaha AAalaykum in kana bikum athanmin matarin aw kuntum marda an tadaAAoo aslihatakumwakhuthoo hithrakum inna AllahaaAAadda lilkafireena AAathaban muheenan
When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishmentSajadoo is the past tense of Sajad, and the place where they did SAJADOO was a MASJID.
Salam all and may peace be with you
Hussein
-
Salam Brother Ayman
Thanks for your post and your very thought provoking ideas and opinions.
Ayman said
So what the verse is saying is that The God takes the selves that DID NOT DIE IN SLEEP. On the other hand, according to you, the verse is saying is that The God takes the selves that did not die in THE PLACE OF THEIR SLEEP. So, according to you, if I am awake just sitting and reading in bed (the place where I sleep), The God takes my self. That interpretation defies common sense.
Brother Ayman, no one knows how and where they will die. When a person is sick and is dying, they die in their DEATH BEDS (The place of sleep). Some are awake, some are asleep, some are in coma, some are in between, some are in pain, some are sedated. They die in their death bed. Some people do not die in their death bed. That is what the Ayah is saying.
For example, see MNAS in 383 where it means "escape". If one reads the whole sentence in 383, no matter how biased one is, one cannot force the meaning of "place of escape" on the word.
"7in" means "at the time of" and "7in MNAS" means "at the time of escape". Trying to make it into a physical place results in the illogical "at the time of the place of escape", so brother, please save your effort and don't even try.
Place of escape is correct, which is also a refuge.
383 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved!
The translator here used being saved. You can easily change it to Refuge/place of escape and the meaning is the same.
The same thing can be said about other words. Such as MSGhB(t) in 9014, which has the same exact structure as MSJD except in the feminine.
Incorrect MASGHABAT there is a Fatha whereas the MASJID has the Kasra.
Please explain to us how a physical building can be founded on "consciousness". I always thought that physical buildings are founded on walls, concrete, and other physical materials. The fact is that in reality a non-physical foundation can only be the foundation of a non-physical concept.
I did address the issue in my note to Brother As Shura. I also addressed my definition of what a MASJID is. Please refer to that note.
MQAM cannot mean a physical place where one stands in verses such as 1973, 1779, etc. If you disagree then please provide a logical translation of those verses substituting "a physical place where you stand" instead of "MQAM".
You are right. MAQAM is allegorical in those situation. In a way that is very related to the Place where you stand.
Therefore, you need to take your misreading of 3942 as evidence of bias and turn it into a positive opportunity for self-improvement.
Thanks for the reminder. I am trying to work on it. You do not talk about biases that you might have. If you don't have any, then ALF MABROOK.
How would we do the impossible and stop at EVERY such place to take beautiful things according to 731? How would we do the impossible and face a certain physical building WHEREVER we are according to your understanding of 2144? Would The God CONSISTENTLY ask us to do such physical impossibilities or is it your understanding that is still biased based on what you were taught by sectarians?
The people that do it do not think that it is impossible.
I join you in that prayer.
Ameen and Salam
Hussein
-
Peace brother Hussein,
Brother Ayman, no one knows how and where they will die. When a person is sick and is dying, they die in their DEATH BEDS (The place of sleep). Some are awake, some are asleep, some are in coma, some are in between, some are in pain, some are sedated. They die in their death bed. Some people do not die in their death bed. That is what the Ayah is saying.
Brother, this is not what the sign is saying. The meaning that you propose is completely made up by you. Here are various translations
039.042
YUSUFALI It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.
PICKTHAL Allah receiveth (men's) souls at the time of their death, and that (soul) which dieth not (yet) in its sleep. He keepeth that (soul) for which He hath ordained death and dismisseth the rest till an appointed term. Lo! herein verily are portents for people who take thought.
SHAKIR Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.
KHALIFA GOD puts the souls to death when the end of their life comes, and also at the time of sleep. Thus, He takes some back during their sleep, while others are allowed to continue living until the end of their predetermined interim. This should provide lessons for people who reflect.The sleep part has NOTHING to do with death. That is why the sign says "lam tamut". What does "lam tamut" mean? It means DID NOT DIE. That is how the translators translated it. Also, notice that ALL translators translated "manam" as "sleep" and not as "place of sleep". Again, "place of sleep" leads to nonsense because you are implying that if I am wide awake in my bed typing this on my laptop, The God takes my soul because I am in "the place of sleep".
For example, see MNAS in 383 where it means "escape". If one reads the whole sentence in 383, no matter how biased one is, one cannot force the meaning of "place of escape" on the word.
"7in" means "at the time of" and "7in MNAS" means "at the time of escape". Trying to make it into a physical place results in the illogical "at the time of the place of escape", so brother, please save your effort and don't even try.
Place of escape is correct, which is also a refuge.
383 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved!
The translator here used being saved. You can easily change it to Refuge/place of escape and the meaning is the same.
No you can't change it because it will become nonsense. Let's try
383 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for place of escape!
"Time for place of escape" is illogical nonsense and such expressions are not used in Arabic (or English for that matter). "Time of escape" is logical.
The same thing can be said about other words. Such as MSGhB(t) in 9014, which has the same exact structure as MSJD except in the feminine.
Incorrect MASGHABAT there is a Fatha whereas the MASJID has the Kasra.
The feminine takes a Fat-ha but it has the same meaning as MASJD. You have to agree, unless you finally no longer hold the view that words such as "MaDRaSa(t)"/school (where there is a Fat-ha) denote primarily a physical place and instead denote an institution of learning like MSJD denotes an institution of obedience.
My vision of Masjid is this
1-Any place where people perform Sujood. This can be your prayer rug, a piece of land and a mosque.So now according to your interpretation, we have to do the impossible and stop at every rug that anyone ever put their forehead on and take beautiful things, otherwise we are disobeying 731.
2-When people perform Sujood in groups, then it becomes not only a place of Sujood, but also a place of learning, discussion and policy. The division of Shia and Sunnis started in the Masajid. Churches are a good example too. People pray in the church, yet each church adopts it's own policy and outlook on things.
As far as I know, the floor, rugs, walls and ceiling of a church are unable to adopt any policy. So unless you are changing your views that MSJD is a physical place, you are contradicting everything else you are saying.
This is in agreement with what your view is (I think). The difference is that I believe that a Masjid as a system and a Masjid as a place of Sujood are not mutually exclusive.
OK, now I see some progress where you don't take MSJD as merely a place of putting one's forehead on the ground. The primary and overriding meaning is that of MSJD being a system/institution. Part of a system can be a physical place where as you said meetings take place. However, the physical place is NOT the MSJD, it is merely a non-essential part of the MSJD. Hence, if people meet online to institute obedience to The God, it is still an institution of obedience/MSJD despite the absence of a physical meeting place.
3- Fiundation of the Masjid is the person or the group of people that decide to build it, with their own thinking, intentions and studies. Stones, bricks, wood, don't build masjids. People do, and the foundation is in the people and their ideas.
This is good. So if people build a government with their ideas, thinking and intentions where people obey The God, that is a MSJD. This desipte "government" not being a physical building.
MQAM cannot mean a physical place where one stands in verses such as 1973, 1779, etc. If you disagree then please provide a logical translation of those verses substituting "a physical place where you stand" instead of "MQAM".
You are right. MAQAM is allegorical in those situation. In a way that is very related to the Place where you stand.
No the meaning of MQAM as not a physical place but a "status" is the meaning as SPOKEN by Arabs. Remember in 1973 it is the rejecters who spoke those words. This is how the Arabs at the time of the prophet literally understood the word.
How would we do the impossible and stop at EVERY such place to take beautiful things according to 731? How would we do the impossible and face a certain physical building WHEREVER we are according to your understanding of 2144? Would The God CONSISTENTLY ask us to do such physical impossibilities or is it your understanding that is still biased based on what you were taught by sectarians?
The people that do it do not think that it is impossible.
Nobody does it. Give me one person who knocks on people's houses and stops at every rug where anyone ever prayed and stops at every Mosque to take beautiful things. This is physically impossible. Also, show me one person who is facing a building that is below the horizon WHEREVER he is. The fact is because the earth is spherical, that person would be facing outer space and would NEVER be facing such a building. How do you face a building WHEREVER you are. Are you facing it where you are reading this? I think not.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman