The Qur'an is corrupted in translation and text is alter how can it be trusted?
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Have you seen the ten commandments, an idiot could have thought of a better list of commandments, one that would have removed all excuse for the horrors of religion, hierarchy, usury, etc., but no we are supposed to believe the god of Moses had no clue and wrote a half assed list?
Moses did not invent belief in God, belief in God (my hypothesis) is natural to our existence, god and gods are mentioned in the earliest preserved writings, including the Epic of Gilgamesh. You are obviously mad at the whole world, the servant of despise.
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Well the ten commandments of the bible are written for an idiot and by an idiot, you changing them out of embarrassment is another issue, clearly Christians enjoy hierarchy, materialism, domination, and greed, and they have done throughout their history, so although you claim the commandments are, your list, the ones in their bible are the issue and they are not your list.
Moses never existed, none of the bullshit of the bible has any relevance, it is very, very unlikely any of it is true historically, it gives no guidance in forming anarchic community, removing usury, removing sovereigns and laws, no truth of any worth, on the other hand, it has been the most blood thirsty religion in history, insane numbers of souls have suffered poverty, torture, death, and a life time of suffering through the application of that book.
If Moses and Moses's god actually did exist he would have been better off burning Moses not the bush, and never allowing the bible to be writtten.
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If one would not trust written sources as evidence whatsoever and only if they saw the person in question, you cannot even prove to me your own dead great grandmother and I could just say you have no evidence she ever existed because all you have are written sources saying she did live. Obviously one must always have a great grandmother, but who it is, is only on paper, so I can say you have no evidence she existed, your relatives have only made that story up.
This is something called paranoia and eagerness to deny. You can deny just about anything because it does not suit you and you do not understand who the person was.
Either you deny it as false or you discover that someone lied about the person in question which made you doubt its existence. Logically, I would also deny the traditional Moses if I had not found more information on him than meets the eye. I would be intelligent enough however to not claim I can prove that he never existed, but I can doubt it and doubt his status as a wise and knowledgeable person.
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In the ancient world their are many physical examples of evidence, human and animal bodies can be evidence, and they can be examined to discover diet, cause of death sometimes, dress, markings, etc. the remains of settlements are physical evidence, they can show how people lived, what they used as tools, ancient monuments can have carvings, reliefs, statues, these can show many things, physical objects can show the technical level of the community, there are many ways to discover things besides a written one.
I am not paranoid, I do know the horrors of the Christian religion historically and I know the origin of the bible, I realise you 'must' find such horrors acceptable being a support of that doctrine.
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Well the ten commandments of the bible are written for an idiot and by an idiot, you changing them out of embarrassment is another issue, clearly Christians enjoy hierarchy, materialism, domination, and greed, and they have done throughout their history, so although you claim the commandments are, your list, the ones in their bible are the issue and they are not your list.
Moses never existed, none of the bullshit of the bible has any relevance, it is very, very unlikely any of it is true historically, it gives no guidance in forming anarchic community, removing usury, removing sovereigns and laws, no truth of any worth, on the other hand, it has been the most blood thirsty religion in history, insane numbers of souls have suffered poverty, torture, death, and a life time of suffering through the application of that book.
If Moses and Moses's god actually did exist he would have been better off burning Moses not the bush, and never allowing the bible to be writtten.
I have no embarrassment for anything, but I am a person who seeks for the true accounts of things. If I am making things up correcting the meaning of each commandment then it is strange they very well coincidence with a human's instinctive desires, and that mere fact makes them more valid than anything and you can just say I came up with them and have a wise guidance for people.
Jesus according to the Gospels is a person being a prime example of a person living by the Ten Directives as he was a kind of model for that.
If you say Moses does not exist this is your belief as you can prove nothing to anyone that he did not exist. This is your word. However, Quran does speak of an actual person named Musa and who holds on to Al-ketab.
Just because a man is portrayed a certain way by a lot of people does not mean this is his proper reputation and he could have been much different from the blackmailing tales about him.
And I thought this was a Quranic forum so why are you so focused on the Bible here and now? Any intelligent person here understands something is wrong with the Bible. Some think it is just invented stories while some think like me that it has been corrupted in interpretation. My extensive research shows it is the latter.
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In the ancient world their are many physical examples of evidence, human and animal bodies can be evidence, and they can be examined to discover diet, cause of death sometimes, dress, markings, etc. the remains of settlements are physical evidence, they can show how people lived, what they used as tools, ancient monuments can have carvings, reliefs, statues, these can show many things, physical objects can show the technical level of the community, there are many ways to discover things besides a written one.
I am not paranoid, I do know the horrors of the Christian religion historically and I know the origin of the bible, I realise you 'must' find such horrors acceptable being a support of that doctrine.
A carving in a stone or similar is a writing. It is yet hard to prove an individual person's existence who lived several thousand years ago and who did not seek a glorious burial in a Pharaoh burial chamber. The common people are hard to find traces of and Moses was a prophet and not a king. Same is for Jesus, there are lots written about him but they cannot find a burial chamber bearing his name or any other remains because Jesus possessed nothing of value for humans and he was allegedly just a carpenter's son. None of that means they never existed, they were just regarded as commoners by the general public of their time. Do you think Jesus received a royal burial?
Why do you say I am in support of "that doctrine"? Where do you get your delusions from?
I am here to expose the God delusion, not be in support of them.
That there is truth in Biblical accounts has nothing to do with the sect Christianity and Judaism.
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You are here arguing in support of that doctrine Mr. Faith, that's not a delusion.
So you have redefined the Ten Commandments, as clearly even you must have been embarrassed to accept them as they were?
So now you have redefined them, but only as references, and how did you determine which commandment would be replaced by which of your directive references?
What then is your explanation for each of your referenced directives?
How will they be applied, understood, is that in your book of Constantine as well?
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Peace, it is now common knowledge the translated text is corrupted and the Arabic text has not remained unaltered from the original, how then can it be trusted as a source of guidance?
Peace, thread is all over same as prior thread asked simple question here
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609759.msg408835#msg408835
Unlike today's carelessness old scribes had system to distinguish e.g.
said written without alif address to one entity
1942 when said to father his O father minesaid written with alif address more than one entity
2152 when said to father his and folk hisI have mentioned in various places on this Forum the Mathematical and Statistical perfection of the Qur'an, facts that make it virtually impossible any human created this 1400 years ago;
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608259.msg383604#msg383604
Peace clashncruz, cannot use flipping columns etc., imprecise and numerous combinations with greater precision e.g.
1.61803398874989 (actual golden ratio)
1.61842374616172 (your calculation 7906/4885)
-0.0003897574118 (variance)If want to keep even/odd symmetry as well remove any 2 verses from any of these chapters
1,2,4,9,11,13,14,16,29,30,32,38,43,56,57,63,66,74,80,93,101
AND
remove any 4 verses from any of these chapters
15,17,18,22,24,25,27,28,33,34,35,39,45,58,64,68,70,72,78,81,87,88,90,91,94,97,98,102,103,105,106,107,111,112,113,1146555 6230 4883 7902 6230 6555
1.61803398874989 (actual golden ratio)
1.61826745852959 (7902/4883)
-0.0002334697797 (variance) -
Abdun Nur,
What doctrine am I arguing for according to you?
I am arguing for a doctrine of soundness/sanity/healthiness (islam), one with maximum logic and consistency. That there were ten lines giving information about the human instinct thousands of years ago is just demonstrating there were intelligent beings back then. It is not their problem their intelligent teachings have been distorted and dishonored. If you are not expecting there to be remnants of wise men or women in the past you should probably apply some logic to your thinking.
You are deluded to think I argue for a doctrine of the common world religions. If anything I am searching for a glimpse of truth in all of them.
What relationship do I have to religions when I disqualify the usual God concept and fully incorporate the 'I am who I am' concept which means we can be like God if we only evolve our souls and strengthen it towards the bodily "interference". That concept was buried in nonsensical Hebrew and Aramaic interpretations by deluded clergymen and so-called scholars.
Why do you think Jesus brings up the bodily evil concept again and brings the light to combating the self's desires to pleasure-seeking?
This is because the teachings of old were dealing with bodily desires and the struggle against the force of Satan. The abused ten directives dealt with the instinctive bodily desires in man. Everything was about becoming Ethereal, to escape this world for a "high community".
The projection of Biblical religion that you have in your ignorance is a first millennium clerical invention when they tried to bring life in old writings they could not understand. It was a huge project for them and they ultimately failed, they brought separate texts into one (today's Bible), but disability to interpret archaic texts proved fatal to future understanding among religious people.
This miserable failure of theirs does not mean between the astonishingly misinterpreted texts you cannot find precious pearls of ancient wisdom and knowledge, if you can learn to decipher the ancient writings and bring life to them as according to their authors instead of deluded clergymen.
First of all, the wise ancient people did not speak of "God" because there is no God in manner of speaking, but God is a platform of existence or foundation or development platform and not a separate entity. Secondly, the words Allah, Allahem or Elohim, none of them speaks of God but this is a deluded religious illusion due to ignorance. The word Allah means "is being who" or "is like like who (is)". That is a third-person form of the ancient Hebrew phrase "Heyeh a'shar Heyeh" which means something like "Who I am is being Who I am", i.e. I am the one who I am, or I am the one who has my being.
So I can more or less say "I am Allah (Being) because I nurtured my mind".
Allah as a harsh and belittling dictator-like god is nothing but the projection of Pagan-minded clergymen over the years. Who created you did create you to excel, not to belittle you nor expect your worship. You were created to show potential to join the 'High Community' (Heaven) and you were given many obstacles in order to seriously test your mental power.
God according to the Pagan mind overshadowed the teachings of sane teachers. It is simply more popular to be a Pagan. Perhaps it is difficult for most to realize their potential to grow their mind and stay in ignorant bliss.
So please Abdun Nur, disconnect me from all those Pagan cults and never associate me with them again. You cannot be that dim-witted to insist on putting me in that category. I am an enlightened being who has brought life to ancient knowledge and its wisdom and the one who follows what is declared will grow mentally (spiritually).
(And the peeking dogmatic and zealous administration of this forum can banish me if you like, it does not matter to me and perchance you will face consequences with your forum platform as a result. No matter what you do the Earth will not be rid of me, yet)
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
I am weary of arguing with you, Abdun Nur. Expect no more answers from me here if we are just arguing pointlessly. My latest response clarifies everything, so I should not have to add anything.
Most of what I tell about the the human situation and susceptibility can be scientifically proven and I am countering the weak nature of an instinctive person with an opportunity to be something so much more. It is possible to suppress the instinct and the results are measurable and therefore it is possible to scientifically prove the benefits of doing so. Distancing oneself from the instinct feeds the mind.
Therefore I am not adhering to a belief but simple facts. I advise anyone to adhere to what is solid. This is why I have unshakable faith (confidence).
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Peace man of faith,
I am not arguing, I ask you to give the explanation and the methods of application, of the words that reference the concepts, you claim are the real ten commandments of the god or voice inside Moses head, or whatever gave the commandments, that is the true message of the old testament, originally covenant.
As for having any effect on your use of this forum, I am totally unconnected with any administrator or moderator of this forum, so do not worry you are quite safe from me, I have no power or desire to effect anyone?s use of this forum.
If you do not believe in a god, then why do you continue to misguide people with the term, also if you believe the term Allah to mean "is being who" or "is like like who (is)" how did you determine that meaning?
We differ on instinct. The innate exists in you from birth, originating in or arising from the intellect or the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience, while instinct is a natural intuitive power. Both are possessed; instinct is a base state, so creates a compulsion toward certain behaviour like fight or flight, satisfying hunger, lust, thirst; etcetera. While the innate is a higher state, which creates an inclination towards certain higher behaviours, such as virtues or being moral. So all instinct is innate but not all that is innate is instinct.
Why do i distinguish the innate from instinct?
Because instinct is of the perception, it only exists perceptually; while the innate is a fundamental state irrespective of the perception.
We are not a million miles apart in understanding, you are heavily invested in religion, which is seriously messing up your clarity, I do not know what you hope to gain from the foolish religions of the past, there is little enough truth in them, and so much bullshit it is best to distance yourself from them in my view, especially the Jewish ones.
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Why do you think Jesus brings up the bodily evil concept again and brings the light to combating the self's desires to pleasure-seeking?
This is because the teachings of old were dealing with bodily desires and the struggle against the force of Satan. The abused ten directives dealt with the instinctive bodily desires in man. Everything was about becoming Ethereal, to escape this world for a "high community".
Can you write your translation of Ten Commandments, you seem to quote desires, but not commandments themselves.
Also, I would like to come back to the issue of Satan in the Bible. Your claim regarding Satan symbolizing bodily instincts or pursue of wordly life is not very consistent with Biblical narrative.
Jesus is refered as the morning star (Lucifer in Greek?) (Revelation 2216). One can tell from other verses that the 'brightness' is what should arise in the hearts of the believers (2 Peter 119), but why would it be refered to Satan in Isaiah 1412? So our instincts that are 'shining' have fallen?
Then again there is a semitic word helel, which in Islam symbolizes something permitted (halal), but in Hebrew tradition it is to shine or symbolizes a shining one. The same word is used in Hebrew Bible in reference to what is traditionally called Satan. http//biblehub.com/hebrew/1966.htm
Unless there is a logical and linguistic (preferably linguistic) re-interpretation of the above verses, do you agree that there is no point in saying that something was terribly misinterpretated?
Also, on the side note, if the Qur'an was terribly mistranslated by the scholars who could barely understand the language and used Hebrew and Aramaic in their efforts, why would they be even interested in the text in the first place? If they could not understand it, why would they even bother?
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- Adhere to the being of one
- Take no image (item) and idolize it
- Take not the command (word) on being in vain
- Observe contemplation (Sabbateh)
- Care for your neighbor as yourself
- Do not defeat
- Do not commit promiscuity
- Do not exploit (steal)
- Do not carry false testimony
- Do not covet your neighbor's... possessions
I quoted desires because that is the underlying reason for each of them and what is of the instinct which causes one to break these directives.
That Satan is the human instinct is a logical explanation and consistent with the body of our being of an animal nature. There is nothing else which "whispers" to us except the bodies themselves.
I require further research if you are referring Satan to "helel", but I will look into the matter. It helps if you say which Semitic letters it is, but I take it you mean Ha-Lam-Lam.
I have all right saying it is probably horribly misinterpreted.
You obviously see there is some inconsistency in itself if one tradition interprets it as shining or brightness while the other as something else.
They were interested in it because obviously they could recognize it mysticism, and they saw it as their religious heritage, archaic or not.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
I quoted desires because that is the underlying reason for each of them and what is of the instinct which causes one to break these directives.
That Satan is the human instinct is a logical explanation and consistent with the body of our being of an animal nature. There is nothing else which "whispers" to us except the bodies themselves.
I require further research if you are referring Satan to "helel", but I will look into the matter. It helps if you say which Semitic letters it is, but I take it you mean Ha-Lam-Lam.
I have all right saying it is probably horribly misinterpreted.
You obviously see there is some inconsistency in itself if one tradition interprets it as shining or brightness while the other as something else.
They were interested in it because obviously they could recognize it mysticism, and they saw it as their religious heritage, archaic or not.
Thanks for elaboration on the commandments. I always wondered that it should say do not exploit rather than steal, since steal is nothing compared to exploitation, but I also wonder how you came to it, why exploit in this case.
Semitic word is described here http//biblehub.com/hebrew/1966.htm , it is in Hebrew which is a different Semitic language than Arabic, so it does not look strange that two languages have different meanings.
The problem I have with helel is a narrative one. If Satan is flesh, how can it be banished from Heaven and called a morning star or the shining one?