Aggression permitted?
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Peace to all,
Attempting to understand something. Your feedback is appreciated in advance.
When I look at the rules of engagement in the Quran, I see it is permissible to fight to establish religious freedom, ward off persecution, and to defend against the aggression of others. If I?m missing any please let me know.
But in surah 5, it appears that Moses was asking his people to aggress upon the inhabitants of the ?holy land?. I do not see that they were defending themselves or being oppressed by these people. What I'm getting is simply that these people have land and Moses wants his people to take it from them. But they refused to go in and fight them. So, were the grounds for fighting or aggressing upon them simply that God decreed the land for them?
Also in surah 27, Solomon learns of a kingdom that practiced idolatry. He sends a letter to them and says come to him as submitters. The queen responds by presenting him with a gift (as a sort of peace offering). He informs his servant to go back and threaten them with his military forces. So, what are the grounds for Solomon's aggression? Their idolatry?
thanks
Mar -
When I look at the rules of engagement in the Quran, I see it is permissible to fight to establish religious freedom, ward off persecution, and to defend against the aggression of others. If I?m missing any please let me know.
Fight is possible only in defense. The Arabic word Qatal has multiple meanings and doesn't seem to give correct flow of the verses when it is interpreted as "kill" or "fight".
But in surah 5, it appears that Moses was asking his people to aggress upon the inhabitants of the ?holy land?.
That's the official interpretation driven by hadiths
O my people, enter the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you and do not turn back and become losers."
But this is what we have in the verse
O my people, enter the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you and do not turn back and become losers."521
In reality, his people wanted the inhabitants out
They said, "O Moses, indeed within it is a people of tyrannical strength, and indeed, we will never enter it until they leave it; but if they leave it, then we will enter."522
Also in surah 27, Solomon learns of a kingdom that practiced idolatry. He sends a letter to them and says come to him as submitters. The queen responds by presenting him with a gift (as a sort of peace offering). He informs his servant to go back and threaten them with his military forces. So, what are the grounds for Solomon's aggression? Their idolatry?
If you notice carefully there are two options in that story
a) Return to them, for we will surely come to them with soldiers that they will be powerless to encounter, and we will surely expel them therefrom in humiliation, and they will be debased."2737
vs
b) He said, "O chiefs! Which of you will bring me her throne before that they come to me (in) submission?"Said a strong one of the jinn, "I will bring it to you before you rise from your place. And indeed, I am for it surely, strong, trustworthy."2738-39
Result
He picked option bSaid one who had knowledge from the Scripture, "I will bring it to you before your glance returns to you." And when Solomon saw it placed before him, he said, "This is from the favor of my Lord to test me whether I will be grateful or ungrateful. And whoever is grateful - his gratitude is only for himself. And whoever is ungrateful - then indeed, my Lord is Free of need and Generous."2740
Being ungrateful is connected to disbelieving. Lesson of the story is that one doesn't need to use force to achieve anything as long as belief in God's words is continued.
As we know, Prophets do make mistakes in various Quran verses. Just think of Solomon doing that in 2737. Another verse does confirm that once, he did go astray for a while.
2737 also shows the danger of using opinions of prophets for guidance. In other words, the sectarian claim that Muhammad was a walking Quran is a bad support for hadiths.
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Peace to all,
Attempting to understand something. Your feedback is appreciated in advance.
When I look at the rules of engagement in the Quran, I see it is permissible to fight to establish religious freedom, ward off persecution, and to defend against the aggression of others. If I?m missing any please let me know.
But in surah 5, it appears that Moses was asking his people to aggress upon the inhabitants of the ?holy land?. I do not see that they were defending themselves or being oppressed by these people. What I'm getting is simply that these people have land and Moses wants his people to take it from them. But they refused to go in and fight them. So, were the grounds for fighting or aggressing upon them simply that God decreed the land for them?
Also in surah 27, Solomon learns of a kingdom that practiced idolatry. He sends a letter to them and says come to him as submitters. The queen responds by presenting him with a gift (as a sort of peace offering). He informs his servant to go back and threaten them with his military forces. So, what are the grounds for Solomon's aggression? Their idolatry?
thanks
MarSalam Alaykum Please see this links and make sure you read all the pages https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600414.0 https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13069.0
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My view is some people are not reading the posts properly nor searching for themselves.
They put their questions mostly because of a preconceived idea or to "ridicule" certain verses .Also ,in my experience of conversing with people,some of them "skim" through and even claim you said something you did not say .
They even ask you the same thing many times ,repeating the view that is already "made up in their mind" ?Anyway ,just saying some obvious "phenomenon" that happens often in this and many other forums.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Peace,
When I look at the rules of engagement in the Quran, I see it is permissible to fight to establish religious freedom, ward off persecution, and to defend against the aggression of others. If I?m missing any please let me know.
You can fight against aggression/attack (self defense), but not to establish religious freedom, nor to ward off persecution.
As for Moses, if you look at the entire episode with Pharaoh, Moses kept asking for the Children of Israel to be set free and allowed to leave Egypt. He never called to arms, nor did he try to overthrow Pharaoh - it was Pharaoh chasing them that got him killed. What happened in the Holy Land was also a peaceful process, until the Children of Israel were barred from entering a land which God had given them licence to settle (i.e. you can treat it as reclaiming occupied land under the Quran's laws of warfare.
As for Solomon, that is a completely different set of rules as he is one of the very few people who had the title "Khalifa" (having inherited from David 3826, 2716) which means he is God's representative on Earth. Solomon was able to speak "in the name of God" (2730) and thus order and give commands that human-human laws do not allow.
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I despair of how our thoughts are always clouded with "distrust and dishonesty" Yes all of us humans lack a trust in each other and lack of honesty .
Now,imagine different races and nations in a state of total "Islam" to GOD? Does not this mean total trust of each other? Does that not mean no aggression whatsoever form each of them?OK, so that is not reality,however Qoran gives us that as reality if we really trust Him and as a basic!!!!!!!!!!
Look,Moses and his people were supposed to be "peaceful people" since they were GOD s representatives .
GOD simply said to them "enter the land that GOD will give you " .They,being doubtful/fearful/not trusting humans refused,imagining that they need to fight/compete with others.... What is wrong in them entering the land as guests and sharing it with those already there? If the others were peaceful and trusting humans also and if not GOD would have worked on the hearts!!!!
But obviously,they feared others and did not trust GOD to unite the hearts.
I do not see where GOD asked them for aggression!!! GOD asked them to "Enter the land". I do not see where Moses prepared an army to attack!!!! Where is it in Qoran? In fact they (Israeel) wanted an army,years after Moses and wanted to fight.The same with Solomon. He was addressing an oppressive regime ,this is what these people said"Nahnu ulu quwwatin wa oulu Baisin shadid" . What is "Baisin"?
To me,Solomon was a "Muslim" to GOD,uniting his kingdom and others to be "Peaceful" towards each other.
Solomon was asking the Queen of that oppressive regime to become a "Peaceful nation" so that they live in Peace and trust each other and other nations!!!! Solomon had no intention,nor aim to oppress anyone. He knew better from GOD.Sorry I am ranting again.
That said,think guys,if all nations were "Muslims" to GOD. Ohhh Heaven on earth.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Reel,
I really like and appreciate your feedback on the Solomon verses. I'll submit my thoughts to such. thx
Regarding entering the holy land, yes, the command was not given to fight. Rather, to 'enter' the holy land.
5-23 Two men of those who were reverent, upon both of whom Allah had bestowed a favor, said Enter upon them by the gate, for when you have entered it you shall surely be victorious, and on Allah should you rely if you are believers.
Now my observation has been that when the word/ variations of "victorious" is used in the Quran, it usually represents a winner and a loser outcome. So my thoughts are that by entering the holy land, there was going to be a winner and a loser.
5-24 They said O Musa! we shall never enter it so long as they are in it; go therefore you and your Lord, then fight you both surely we will here sit down.
Is this an assumption on their part that entering it would involve fighting? Or did they know it would involve fighting and feared that the inhabitants were too powerful for them?
What happened in the Holy Land was also a peaceful process, until the Children of Israel were barred from entering a land which God had given them licence to settle (i.e. you can treat it as reclaiming occupied land under the Quran's laws of warfare.
Layth, please clarify
Peace
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Peace,
What happened in the Holy Land was also a peaceful process, until the Children of Israel were barred from entering a land which God had given them licence to settle (i.e. you can treat it as reclaiming occupied land under the Quran's laws of warfare.
If you look at 522, you will note that the Children of Israel describe the inhabitants of the Holy Land as "Jabareen". This word denotes force and aggression (from "JBR" which is "to force". The attribute is always used negatively in the Quran when applied to people. This is why the conversation in 523 turns to the two wise men suggesting that they enter by storming the gates.
