The seven ''verses'' in surah 15
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Peace Mazhar.
This is too complicated,quote
No, it is not like that. Studying a book is subject to accepted rules and norms. First step is to recognize the individual words. Second is to identify the grammatical units, like phrases because semantically they cannot be further broken down. Third is to determine the role/function of each entity in the sentence, fourth to determine inter-relationships and dependencies.That explains my difficulty in understanding your interpretations!
Anyway,for me GOD has made Qoran easy to understand,the only valid rule is sincerity and trust in GOD Alone to explain it.As usual we end up agreeing to disagree.
Oh ,you have not mentioned why "Saal Allah Alaihi Wa Sallam" ? You know the why and what it means? Or do you want another thread for it?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Note how in all instances of the expressions referring to ''the people of Lot'' in the quran, this is the only one not using the word ''qawm''. How I see it is that if the usual ''qawm'' was used instead of ''ikhwan''(brothers), the whole miracle would have collapsed. The use of ''ikhwan'' appears intentional and is a way to, like I said, enhance the significance of the miracle by reducing the probability of a human invention. God could use ''qawm'' and still make the surah with 57 qaf, but he instead used ''ikhwan'' for us to ponder upon the greatness of this miracle by using this unique instance to show how it would have been one qaf away if ''qawm'' was used intead !!! This makes the miracle even more stunning than it already is that the two surah have 57 (19x3) qaf each despite surah 42 being 2 times bigger than surah 50.
26105 deny she qawmu/folk Noah the transmitters
26106 when said to them brother theirs Noah that not righteous being26123 deny she Aad the transmitters
26124 when said to them brother theirs Hud that not righteous being26141 deny she Thamud the transmitters
26142 when said to them brother theirs Salih that not righteous being26160 deny she qawmu/folk Lot the transmitters
26161 when said to them brother theirs Lot that not righteous being114 chapters how many expect multiple on average in any ch # letters ~6?
peruse 114 arabic pages/whatever count # qaf then report # of multiples?peace
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I did not say "complex-compound sentence". I said it is a compound sentence. A conjunctive is used in compound sentences. It is for economy of words. The word after conjunction particle is masculine in accusative case as object of verb. The previous object of verb is feminine. These are two independent sentences rendered as compound sentence.
I'm still inclined that the flow of the verse suggests that the seven ''mathan'' and the quran are two distinct and mutually exclusive elements. The verse looks simple enough, I don't think there's a need to break it down to this level of detailed linguistic analysis. It seems more likely that it is the traditional way of thinking that makes us believe this verse is referring to surah 1.
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26105 deny she qawmu/folk Noah the transmitters
26106 when said to them brother theirs Noah that not righteous being26123 deny she Aad the transmitters
26124 when said to them brother theirs Hud that not righteous being26141 deny she Thamud the transmitters
26142 when said to them brother theirs Salih that not righteous being26160 deny she qawmu/folk Lot the transmitters
26161 when said to them brother theirs Lot that not righteous being114 chapters how many expect multiple on average in any ch # letters ~6?
peruse 114 arabic pages/whatever count # qaf then report # of multiples?peace
These are referring to Lot, or the other prophets, as their brother, thus they're not instances of the expression ''the people of''.
As for the number of chapters having nx19 qaf, we should indeed expect 6 from a statistical point of view. If I recall correctly I know of at least one other surah with a number of qaf that is a multiple of 19, but I didn't do the count for every surah. But the thing with this numerical miracle is that not only is the number of qaf in surah 42 and 50 a multiple of 19, it is also the same multiple (19x3 = 57) for both surah despite surah 42 being twice as long as surah 50. -
Do you know of other instances in the Qur'an where ikhwan may be used to mean kawm or something akin?
Salaam
From memory there aren't no other instance in which the term ''ikhwan'' or any other term is used to refer to ''qawm of ''. The only other word used is ''as7ab'' (the companions) but it is never used alongside a prophet's name. It is instead associated with places, for example ''as7ab al-kahf'' (the companions of the cave).
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Salam,
I don't know if this has been covered in some other topic but I would want to know what people here think about it. The verse in question is verse 1587 (hafs reading), which is translated by most traditional translators as something like that (sahih international) And We have certainly given you, , seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.
The word they translated as verses (or often repeated verses) is mathaan. Traditionalists say that this verse refers to surah 1, of which they deem the verses as often repeated due to its reading in every unite of ritual prayers. They also use this verse to add weight to the claim that the way they pray is the correct one. However, since surah 1 is of course part of the quran, the last part of the verse ''and the great quran'' wouldn't make sense if the seven ''mathan'' are indeed refering to surah 1. Also note the use of the word ''mina (from/of)'' clearly indicating that there are more ''mathan'' but Muhammad was only given seven of them.
To prove that 1587 is referring to first Surah, hadithis have made following efforts in two versions of Quran
Hafs version has 7 verses in Surah 1 counting bismillah .... as verse #1
Warsh version has 7 verses in Surah 1, not counting bismillah ... as verse #1 but dividing last verse into 2 to make a total of 7 verses.
1587
Yousaf Ali translation And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Oft-Repeated (verses) and the Grand Qur'an.
He adds "verses" in brackets whereas Arabic Text does not have the word "verses".Saba' means 7 and it can also be used to denote several. The context is giving examples from history of downfall of nations. Is this verse referring to repeated history of downfall of nations as given in the context and Quran is given, to follow it and to avoid such downfall.
Parwez Ahmad translated this verse as under
We have given to you directives in the Quran and annals of history which repeats itself, in support thereof.
Dr Shabbir has translated it as
We have given you several examples from history that repeats itself, and We have
given you this Sublime Qur'an that defines the laws of the rise and fall of
nations.Peace
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To prove that 1587 is referring to first Surah, hadithis have made following efforts in two versions of Quran
Hafs version has 7 verses in Surah 1 counting bismillah .... as verse #1
Warsh version has 7 verses in Surah 1, not counting bismillah ... as verse #1 but dividing last verse into 2 to make a total of 7 verses.
1587
Yousaf Ali translation And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Oft-Repeated (verses) and the Grand Qur'an.
He adds "verses" in brackets whereas Arabic Text does not have the word "verses".Saba' means 7 and it can also be used to denote several. The context is giving examples from history of downfall of nations. Is this verse referring to repeated history of downfall of nations as given in the context and Quran is given, to follow it and to avoid such downfall.
Parwez Ahmad translated this verse as under
We have given to you directives in the Quran and annals of history which repeats itself, in support thereof.
Dr Shabbir has translated it as
We have given you several examples from history that repeats itself, and We have
given you this Sublime Qur'an that defines the laws of the rise and fall of
nations.Peace
George Sale
We have already brought unto thee seven verses which are frequently to be repeated, and the glorious Koran.
John Medows Rodwell
We have already given thee the seven verses of repetition and the glorious Koran.
Elisions
It is made explicit at the very outset of the Divine Discourse that Arabic is a pro-drop language. Taking care of elisions in the source text and incorporating it in target language text are important to correctly convey the perception embedded therein.
Ellipses at the sentence level is distinguished from other types of omissions by the condition of recover-ability. The basic principle of ellipsis is that nothing can be omitted unless it can be recovered. Recover-ability is the essential condition put forward by Arab grammarians for ellipsis. Ellipsis is not allowed if there are no indicators to help the addressee to identify the elided elements.
The indicator of first elision is spelling of word http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.029/02.%20Saba%20Seen%20Ba%20Ain%20Seven/9.gif
It gives the count seven of feminine object. Default spelling is http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.029/02.%20Saba%20Seen%20Ba%20Ain%20Seven/1.gif
Cardinal number and the counted object always find mention as possessive phrase. Like
When definite it will find mention in adjectival phrase; like
For recovering the elided word, assistance should be taken from Qur'aan and one should not conjecture by imaginative flights.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.101.gif
Except the first object of verb other words are identical. Here cardinal number for count of feminine objects is 9 but without tanween because counted object is mentioned.
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To prove that 1587 is referring to first Surah, hadithis have made following efforts in two versions of Quran
Hafs version has 7 verses in Surah 1 counting bismillah .... as verse #1
Warsh version has 7 verses in Surah 1, not counting bismillah ... as verse #1 but dividing last verse into 2 to make a total of 7 verses.
1587
Yousaf Ali translation And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Oft-Repeated (verses) and the Grand Qur'an.
He adds "verses" in brackets whereas Arabic Text does not have the word "verses".Saba' means 7 and it can also be used to denote several. The context is giving examples from history of downfall of nations. Is this verse referring to repeated history of downfall of nations as given in the context and Quran is given, to follow it and to avoid such downfall.
Parwez Ahmad translated this verse as under
We have given to you directives in the Quran and annals of history which repeats itself, in support thereof.
Dr Shabbir has translated it as
We have given you several examples from history that repeats itself, and We have
given you this Sublime Qur'an that defines the laws of the rise and fall of
nations.Peace
This is a very interesting interpretation and seems to go well with the verse's simple flow. However, I would like to know from where this ''seven can mean several'' comes from. If we just go with seven in a numerical sense, we can try to identify the most often repeated downfall stories, but then again there is the word ''mina'' (from/of) which would imply that there are other most often repeated verses/downfall stories/whatever ''mathan'' is really about that weren't revealed to the prophet.
In any case, I'd say that accepting a surah 1 meaning for it would only reinforce the traditional system of ritual prayers, which is why it doesn't sound right as we know the way traditionalists pray has no basis from the quran...
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This is a very interesting interpretation and seems to go well with the verse's simple flow. However, I would like to know from where this ''seven can mean several'' comes from. If we just go with seven in a numerical sense, we can try to identify the most often repeated downfall stories, but then again there is the word ''mina'' (from/of) which would imply that there are other most often repeated verses/downfall stories/whatever ''mathan'' is really about that weren't revealed to the prophet.
In any case, I'd say that accepting a surah 1 meaning for it would only reinforce the traditional system of ritual prayers, which is why it doesn't sound right as we know the way traditionalists pray has no basis from the quran...
Here is a quote from Parwez Ahmad's Lughat ul Quran http//qes.no/Lughat/LughatVolum-II.pdf
Lane with reference to Baizawi has written that the Arabs not only meant seven by saying (saba'
but it is also used to mean ?several? or ?many?.(sab?on) means seventy and (sabame?atah) means seven hundred {M, T, R}. As we
sometimes say twenties, fifties, hundreds and do not mean any fixed figure, or as we sometime say ?I
have told you a hundred times? to put emphasis. It does not mean an exact hundred.
For example the Quran says980 Even if you ask forgiveness for them seventy times
It does not mean that if you ask for their pardon seventy times, we will not pardon them, but if you ask for
their pardon more than seventy times then We will pardon them. It means that even if you ask pardon for
them several times, they cannot be pardoned.
? س ? sab?as samawaat) is translated to numerous heavenly bodies (229). We also use the phrase
?across seven seas? by which we actually mean several seas.2261 Those who keep their wealth open i.e. spend for the
benefit of other human beings, for them the wealth is
like a seed which has seven saplings and there are a
hundred grains in each saplinghere Obviously (sab-a sanabil) means several.
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Aren't there at the beginning of the sura starting with aya 16, seven deeds of Gostated of which He reminds and that are often repeated in the Qur'an? That is not leaving out the numerology effect, in fact it can do both, but I think that for them to have a meaning, other than numerology would be consistent with the whole of Qur'an which is not a bag of "tricks" but in which everything means something. If we bear in mind that then and before the mention of the seven we are again reminded that He has created the heavens and the earth and what is between them "bil Haqq", with truth. I think it is a very important reminder. Existence, even material existence is truth, it is no passtime, not vain. However insignificnt anything may look to us, it is truth, it is important, because it has the impront of God from Whom everything is truth.
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Root
Words from this Root in the Grand Qur'aan
a) Total occurrences 28
b) No of constructions 13
It occurs in 24 Ayahs in 16 Suras.
bn Faris stated
( ة
That it firstly means the cardinal number (seven and seventy), and secondly it refers to animal of family wild beast.
It has been used in the Grand Qur'aan in both the meanings. Once for the animal of prey
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/005.%20Al%20Maida/5.3QT.gif
And that mangled by animal of prey save that you timely slaughtered it;
In Arabic the cardinal number represents the count of an individual object. It is not merely a digit as is a number in English. Therefore, it also has gender, either masculine or feminine in relation to the counted object. When the counted object is feminine, the cardinal number will be masculine; alternatively if each member of the counted object is masculine, the cardinal number will be feminine.
For examples
Root
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These are referring to Lot, or the other prophets, as their brother, thus they're not instances of the expression ''the people of''.
As for the number of chapters having nx19 qaf, we should indeed expect 6 from a statistical point of view. If I recall correctly I know of at least one other surah with a number of qaf that is a multiple of 19, but I didn't do the count for every surah. But the thing with this numerical miracle is that not only is the number of qaf in surah 42 and 50 a multiple of 19, it is also the same multiple (19x3 = 57) for both surah despite surah 42 being twice as long as surah 50.Peace, statistically insignificant with large enough sample set (e.g. ch 14) and there are 7, see Code 29 below.
The higher prime number the less likely to be multiple; example Qaf
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Salam,
Note how in all instances of the expressions referring to ''the people of Lot'' in the quran, this is the only one not using the word ''qawm''. How I see it is that if the usual ''qawm'' was used instead of ''ikhwan''(brothers), the whole miracle would have collapsed. The use of ''ikhwan'' appears intentional and is a way to, like I said, enhance the significance of the miracle by reducing the probability of a human invention. God could use ''qawm'' and still make the surah with 57 qaf, but he instead used ''ikhwan'' for us to ponder upon the greatness of this miracle by using this unique instance to show how it would have been one qaf away if ''qawm'' was used intead !!! This makes the miracle even more stunning than it already is that the two surah have 57 (19x3) qaf each despite surah 42 being 2 times bigger than surah 50.
Try to count yourself the occurrence of it in Surah 50. May be you find it 63, not 57.
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Peace, statistically insignificant with large enough sample set (e.g. ch 14) and there are 7, see Code 29 below.
How come you say it's statistically insignificant, did you look at the qaf letter ratio for surah 50? The closest surah to surah 42 in terms of total letters is actually surah 14, thus their qaf ratio is almost exactly the same because they both have 57 qaf. But surah 50 is much shorter (much less total letters) and still has the same amount of qaf, meaning a very high ratio of the qaf letter, in fact the highest in the whole quran if you exclude short chapters with less than 1000 letters. In fact its qaf ratio is more than twice that of surah 14 and 42 ! This is statistically significant because in order for two surah very different in length to have a similar amount of a letter, let alone the exact same amount, they have to show a very different ratio for this letter and in this case this very high qaf ratio for surah 50 has a large z-score compared to the mean qaf ratio in the whole quran...
Try to count yourself the occurrence of it in Surah 50. May be you find it 63, not 57.
I counted them of course, it is 57, same thing for surah 42...
But without even counting them, there are many websites giving us letter counts for every chapter of the quran in case you didn't know... -
I counted them of course, it is 57, same thing for surah 42...
But without even counting them, there are many websites giving us letter counts for every chapter of the quran in case you didn't know...Many are wrong. As many calculations by RK are wrong.
If you think they are 57 you can write like this
501 2
502 1
504 2
505 how many you count 1 or 2
506 1And then see what is the sum total.
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Many are wrong. As many calculations by RK are wrong.
If you think they are 57 you can write like this
501 2
502 1
504 2
505 how many you count 1 or 2
506 1And then see what is the sum total.
I counted myself, it takes a few minutes. Also, what do you mean if I count 1 or 2 in 505, qaf is a very easy consonant to count...
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I counted myself, it takes a few minutes. Also, what do you mean if I count 1 or 2 in 505, qaf is a very easy consonant to count...
Writing it down will also take few minutes, but that will make your claim verifiable.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/123.%20Al%20Haqqo%20Hi%20Qaaf%20Qaaf%20fact/4.gif How many Qaaf are in it?
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Peace Mazhar .
You mean like this
Surah 42 how many Q s From verse 1 to verse 53
0
1
1
0
1
0
4
0
1
0
0
3
2
3
2
0
2
2
2
0
1
2
3
4
1
0
2
1
2
0
0
0
0
1
0
1
0
3
0
0
0
1
0
3
0
1
2
1
2
0
1
0
Total= 57.
Now you will tell me Al Haq has two Kafs?You never cease to amaze me1
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
What he is trying to say is that the qaf with ''shadda'' can be counted as 2 instead of one, which is really stupid by the way since qaf is a stop consonant, unlike nasal noun or mim which can be uninterrupted since airflow is not blocked, meaning that no matter how much you stress on it, you cannot stretch its sound instance whereas noun for example can be continued at will (nnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...).
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What he is trying to say is that the qaf with ''shadda'' can be counted as 2 instead of one, which is really stupid by the way since qaf is a stop consonant, unlike nasal noun or mim which can be uninterrupted since airflow is not blocked, meaning that no matter how much you
The question here would not be tht but rather whether in other instnces shadda is counted as two letters or one letter. Logically in all instances should be counted the same, either as one letter or as two, but always the same, not some times like one letter a some times like two letters.
Salaam